Jesus was caught up to heaven in flesh body

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2012,03:33)

Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:25) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,12:39) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW, Yes he did ascend in his flesh body. The vision of men does not reach to heaven. Nick, Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven. K that was Steven Pierre, That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it. K So Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?. Steven ,he knew for sure he was there , And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his Christ Pierre, Read the account of Steven’s vision in Acts 7:54-56 and you will see he was not caught up into heaven.  The words are “he gazed intently into heaven” and “I see the heavens opened up”.   That does not match Paul’s description of the man who was caught up into Paradise even though Paul was also a witness of the event of Steven’s death.   The event Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians is not mentioned elsewhere in Scripture. K were was Paul 14 years earlier

Pierre,

No one really knows when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, though an educated guess is 55 A.D. Steven's Martyrdom is believed to have happened a couple of decades earlier in 34-35 A.D.

That is speculation and so the best evidence is that the two events are significantly different.

[kerwin]

Toby,

Gnosticism teaches that the material is evil and the immaterial is good.  Gnostics found they could use certain scriptures to support their doctrines.  This corruption remains in the church to this day; even though some teach have made an attempt to escape it.  

One of the passages they use is the clause flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.  The ignorant and corrupt interpret it to mean the material cannot enter heaven but you know better and yet you still hold to their flawed conclusions.   What passages from the Bible, do you still believe support the hypothesis that the material cannot enter heaven?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:56)

Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2012,03:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:25) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,12:39) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW, Yes he did ascend in his flesh body. The vision of men does not reach to heaven. Nick, Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven. K that was Steven Pierre, That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it. K So Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?. Steven ,he knew for sure he was there , And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his Christ Pierre, Read the account of Steven’s vision in Acts 7:54-56 and you will see he was not caught up into heaven.  The words are “he gazed intently into heaven” and “I see the heavens opened up”.   That does not match Paul’s description of the man who was caught up into Paradise even though Paul was also a witness of the event of Steven’s death.   The event Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians is not mentioned elsewhere in Scripture. K were was Paul 14 years earlier Pierre, No one really knows when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, though an educated guess is 55 A.D.   Steven's Martyrdom is believed to have happened a couple of decades earlier in 34-35 A.D. That is speculation and so the best evidence is that the two events are significantly different.

K

I on the contrary see Christ died around 33 ad add 2 or 3 could more ,then add 14 years this is now about 50 ad just the time Paul could have written his letter

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2012,08:00)

Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:56) Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2012,03:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:25) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,12:39) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW, Yes he did ascend in his flesh body. The vision of men does not reach to heaven. Nick, Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven. K that was Steven Pierre, That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it. K So Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?. Steven ,he knew for sure he was there , And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his Christ Pierre, Read the account of Steven’s vision in Acts 7:54-56 and you will see he was not caught up into heaven.  The words are “he gazed intently into heaven” and “I see the heavens opened up”.   That does not match Paul’s description of the man who was caught up into Paradise even though Paul was also a witness of the event of Steven’s death.   The event Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians is not mentioned elsewhere in Scripture. K were was Paul 14 years earlier Pierre, No one really knows when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, though an educated guess is 55 A.D.   Steven's Martyrdom is believed to have happened a couple of decades earlier in 34-35 A.D. That is speculation and so the best evidence is that the two events are significantly different. K I on the contrary see Christ died around 33 ad add 2 or 3 could more ,then add 14 years this is now about 50 ad just the time Paul could have written his letter

Pierre,

That is all speculation as we do not even know for sure when Jesus was born though the range goes from 6 BC to 6AD.  The later seems questionable as Herod died in 4 BC; but the Quirinius census took place in 6 AD.

Acts 7 describes Steven having a vision while 2 Corinthians describes the man being there are hearing.   There was nothing wrote about Steven hearing anything.

[GeneBalthrop]

To all………The topic is, Jesus was caught up to heaven in a flesh body. I believe He was as it shows in scripture he was taken up in his Body. No one has produced any proof scripturally that a change took place as he ascended, and scripture say he will descend the same way he ascended. To think all these weird changes took place is speculation at best, IMO

peace and love………………………………………….gene

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 03 2012,20:03)

To all………The topic is, Jesus was caught up to heaven in a flesh body. I believe He was as it shows in scripture he was taken up in his Body. No one has produced any proof scripturally that a change took place as he ascended, and scripture say he will descend the same way he ascended. To think all these weird changes took place is speculation at best, IMO peace and love………………………………………….gene

Gene,

I am in agreement.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 04 2012,01:03)

To all………The topic is, Jesus was caught up to heaven in a flesh body. I believe He was as it shows in scripture he was taken up in his Body. No one has produced any proof scripturally that a change took place as he ascended, and scripture say he will descend the same way he ascended. To think all these weird changes took place is speculation at best, IMO peace and love………………………………………….gene

Hi GB,
Indeed we do not know what we will be like [1jn 3 1-2]but we do know we will be like to him-in a new imperishable body that is not natural but spiritual [1cor15]

[toby]

Hi Kerwin,
You said:

Quote

One of the passages they use is the clause flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.  The ignorant and corrupt interpret it to mean the material cannot enter heaven but you know better and yet you still hold to their flawed conclusions.   What passages from the Bible, do you still believe support the hypothesis that the material cannot enter heaven?

Kerwin,

The verse does not say 'Flesh and Blood cannot ENTER Heaven'.
What it does say is : 'Flesh and Blood cannot INHERIT the kingdom of God'.

These two are not the same.  

First you make a complete false statement that Apostle Paul said he knows that a body can enter Heaven. Kerwin….

But all the same, let's look at what else you said! Ah yes, Enoch went to Heaven in his body because you read that he was 'Taken' by God.

Kerwin, where does it say that the body of Enoch went to Heaven. Even the people who wrote the Scriptural account said 'He was – then he was not'. They did not say he went to Heaven – but somehow you know more than the people who were there – just as you know more about Apostle Paul than Apostle Paul's knows about himself.

Kerwin, when you decide to misinterpret Scriptures, please try to think who you are doing it for… What is your intention in misrepresenting those who wrote what they were a party to concerning God and the testament given to Christ.

Ok, tell me this: for what reason would you like it for Flesh and Blood to go to Heaven? Kerwin, in answering the question, make a note that no one in Scriptures has ever been said to have gone to Heaven 'Except He Who Came From Heaven' (Who said those words?) so what does that say about what you say about Enoch?

[NickHassan]

Good points toby

[kerwin]

Toby,

Was Paul an expert on his own religion?

By the inference of your words you claim he was not.  I instead hold that Paul, being an expert, knew whether or not the man could have entered heaven.   If the man could not have entered heaven in his body then Paul would not have truthfully stated he did not know whether he did or not.  This is why we disagree on whether or not Paul was an expert on his own religion.

Your words about Enoch are nonsense as Scripture declares that the line before and after Enoch died but about Enoch it states he was not.  If he died then Scripture would have declared he died; just like it did with the rest.   When Scripture states he is not it means he was no longer found in this world.

Hebrews 11:5
King James Version (KJV)

5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

I have all ready covered the “not found” and “not see death” so are you having trouble with “translated”.  Other Scripures that use the word are:

Acts 7:16
King James Version (KJV)
16And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.

Where it is translated “carried over”
Or

Acts 7:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 From there they were removed to [a]Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in [c]Shechem.
Footnotes:
a.Acts 7:16 Gr Sychem
b.Acts 7:16 Gr Emmor
c.Acts 7:16 Gr Sychem

Where it is translated removed.

So where do you think Enoch was carried over (removed) to?  

If you do not like removed or carried over then let’s use “changed” as in Hebrews 7:12 instead, not that it helps your claim at all since scripture declares the living will be changed without seeing death.

Despite your understanding Scripture declare many went to heaven including angels and Elijah.  2 Kings 2:1 and 11 explicitly states Elijah was taken into heaven by God.    

In this case I would venture to say the translators are corrupt and or incompetent as there is clearly an “if” in the statement.  The interlinear version has it “And no one has gone up into heaven if not the one out of heaven having come down the Son of man who is in heaven”.  Ei is defined as if so I see no competent and legitimate reason for the translators not doing so in John 3:13.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
2 Kings 2.1 does not prove which of the three heavens is spoken about

Number 8064
Transliteration:
shamayim {shaw-mah'-yim}
Word Origin:
dual of an unused singular shameh from an unused root meaning to be lofty
TWOT:
2407a
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
heaven 398, air 21, astrologers 01895 1

Total: 420
Definition:
heaven, heavens, sky
visible heavens, sky
as abode of the stars
as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
Heaven (as the abode of God)

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,13:11)

Hi KW, 2 Kings 2.1 does not prove which of the three heavens is spoken about Number 8064 Transliteration: shamayim {shaw-mah'-yim} Word Origin: dual of an unused singular shameh from an unused root meaning to be lofty TWOT: 2407a Part of Speech: noun masculine Usage in the KJV: heaven 398, air 21, astrologers 01895 1 Total: 420 Definition: heaven, heavens, sky visible heavens, sky as abode of the stars as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc Heaven (as the abode of God)

Nick,

I believe that heaven is used the mean different things as you state but that there is also more than one spiritual realm; since Solomon spoke of God not fitting in the heavens not even the highest heaven.

As for Elijah; he like Mosses meant Jesus on the mountain.

I hope to look into it more.

[toby]

Hi Kerwin,

What has led you to this conclusion concerning Scriptures about Enoch being 'Not Found', and what Apostle Paul said.

Apostle Paul said he did not know 'whether the man he boasts about Was in his Body or out of his Body when he was caught up to “PARADISE” (The third Heaven) and heard unspeakable things'

You re-interpret 'Paradise' to say 'Heaven' when it is clear that Paul did not mean that, else he would not have gone to the trouble of saying it Twice, (verses 2 and 4) the second time with Clarification.

Paul also states TWICE that he 'DID NOT KNOW' – yet, Kerwin, you say that this is precisely how you know that Apostle Paul knows that a body can enter heaven.

Kerwin, this issue is a pointless one as it is clear that you have an agenda that blinds you to simple common sense – namely :

1) Apostle Paul said (Twice) that he did not know (But you say this means he did!!?)
2) The verse says 'Paradise' (The third Heaven) (Twice) but you say 'Heaven' (as in 'The abode of God')
3) The opposite of 'To know' is 'To not know'. Also 'May know some things but not all' – only God knows all things – which is Precisely what Apostle Paul said ('God Knows. Verse 2 and 3)
4) Enoch 'was taken'. The Gospel writers did not know what happened to him. His body was not BURIED – he died where no one saw. In those days it was deemed 'Vital' for the body to be buried and many people went around with each other so it would be hard for anyone to 'go missing' so when Enoch 'disappeared' the chronochlers could not account for his death – hence the 'was taken' and 'was not' – it's another 'we don't know'!! The verse certainly does not say that Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven (The abode of God) – and moreover, If Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven, he must have been in his Mortal body, as you say he did not die, and yet thousands of years later Jesus said a man must be 'Born Again' to see God's Kingdom – AND – if Enochs body was made IMMORTAL, then how is Jesus PRE-EMINENT and the PRECURSOR of the 'New PERFECT MAN'?

Kerwin, It is one thing to 'be mistaken' about something and that is immediately forgivable – it is completely another thing to openly and so incompetently state that the exact opposite of a truth, is truth!

(Kerwin, points to consider (no need to answer to me). What is your point to the question of whether flesh and blood can enter Heaven when Heaven is the abode of Spirit?
Can flesh and blood enter (exist in) 'Space' (The celestial Heavens) – no, only by being in a space craft or space suit breathing air as he would do on Earth. Basically a micro Earth environment – not a 'Celestial Environment'!)

[kerwin]

Nick,

Here is selected quotes from the event.  How do you come up with the idea that Elijah went to anywhere but the heavens of God?

2 Kings 2
King James Version (KJV)

1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

…

5And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

…

7And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.

…

9And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

–

11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

…

16And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
17And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
18And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?

[kerwin]

Quote (toby @ April 04 2012,16:22)

Hi Kerwin, What has led you to this conclusion concerning Scriptures about Enoch being 'Not Found', and what Apostle Paul said. Apostle Paul said he did not know 'whether the man he boasts about Was in his Body or out of his Body when he was caught up to “PARADISE” (The third Heaven) and heard unspeakable things' You re-interpret 'Paradise' to say 'Heaven' when it is clear that Paul did not mean that, else he would not have gone to the trouble of saying it Twice, (verses 2 and 4) the second time with Clarification. Paul also states TWICE that he 'DID NOT KNOW' – yet, Kerwin, you say that this is precisely how you know that Apostle Paul knows that a body can enter heaven. Kerwin, this issue is a pointless one as it is clear that you have an agenda that blinds you to simple common sense – namely : 1) Apostle Paul said (Twice) that he did not know (But you say this means he did!!?) 2) The verse says 'Paradise' (The third Heaven) (Twice) but you say 'Heaven' (as in 'The abode of God') 3) The opposite of 'To know' is 'To not know'. Also 'May know some things but not all' – only God knows all things – which is Precisely what Apostle Paul said ('God Knows. Verse 2 and 3) 4) Enoch 'was taken'. The Gospel writers did not know what happened to him. His body was not BURIED – he died where no one saw. In those days it was deemed 'Vital' for the body to be buried and many people went around with each other so it would be hard for anyone to 'go missing' so when Enoch 'disappeared' the chronochlers could not account for his death – hence the 'was taken' and 'was not' – it's another 'we don't know'!! The verse certainly does not say that Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven (The abode of God) – and moreover, If Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven, he must have been in his Mortal body, as you say he did not die, and yet thousands of years later Jesus said a man must be 'Born Again' to see God's Kingdom – AND – if Enochs body was made IMMORTAL, then how is Jesus PRE-EMINENT and the PRECURSOR of the 'New PERFECT MAN'? Kerwin, It is one thing to 'be mistaken' about something and that is immediately forgivable – it is completely another thing to openly and so incompetently state that the exact opposite of a truth, is truth! (Kerwin, points to consider (no need to answer to me). What is your point to the question of whether flesh and blood can enter Heaven when Heaven is the abode of Spirit? Can flesh and blood enter (exist in) 'Space' (The celestial Heavens) – no, only by being in a space craft or space suit breathing air as he would do on Earth. Basically a micro Earth environment – not a 'Celestial Environment'!)

Toby,

You are not reading with comprehension what I wrote or you would not state:

Quote

Apostle Paul said he did not know 'whether the man he boasts about Was in his Body or out of his Body when he was caught up to “PARADISE” (The third Heaven) and heard unspeakable things' You re-interpret 'Paradise' to say 'Heaven' when it is clear that Paul did not mean that, else he would not have gone to the trouble of saying it Twice, (verses 2 and 4) the second time with Clarification.

What I did say is that Paul is an expert on the true doctrine of God and therefore knows whether the material can enter heaven or not.   He did not know if the man in questioned entered heaven in his body or not. To summarize Paul knows his doctrine but not the details of an event that happened in a fellow Christian's life.

Enough stated about that; have you looked into why the translators of the interlinear found an “if” in John 3:13 while other translators did not?

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Any 'expertise' that Paul had was because he had the mind of Christ.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2012,10:09)

Hi KW, Any 'expertise' that Paul had was because he had the mind of Christ.

Nick;

Certainly; as Jesus has continuously spoken through him.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
There is no flesh in heaven.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (toby @ April 04 2012,21:22)

Hi Kerwin, What has led you to this conclusion concerning Scriptures about Enoch being 'Not Found', and what Apostle Paul said. Apostle Paul said he did not know 'whether the man he boasts about Was in his Body or out of his Body when he was caught up to “PARADISE” (The third Heaven) and heard unspeakable things' You re-interpret 'Paradise' to say 'Heaven' when it is clear that Paul did not mean that, else he would not have gone to the trouble of saying it Twice, (verses 2 and 4) the second time with Clarification. Paul also states TWICE that he 'DID NOT KNOW' – yet, Kerwin, you say that this is precisely how you know that Apostle Paul knows that a body can enter heaven. Kerwin, this issue is a pointless one as it is clear that you have an agenda that blinds you to simple common sense – namely : 1) Apostle Paul said (Twice) that he did not know (But you say this means he did!!?) 2) The verse says 'Paradise' (The third Heaven) (Twice) but you say 'Heaven' (as in 'The abode of God') 3) The opposite of 'To know' is 'To not know'. Also 'May know some things but not all' – only God knows all things – which is Precisely what Apostle Paul said ('God Knows. Verse 2 and 3) 4) Enoch 'was taken'. The Gospel writers did not know what happened to him. His body was not BURIED – he died where no one saw. In those days it was deemed 'Vital' for the body to be buried and many people went around with each other so it would be hard for anyone to 'go missing' so when Enoch 'disappeared' the chronochlers could not account for his death – hence the 'was taken' and 'was not' – it's another 'we don't know'!! The verse certainly does not say that Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven (The abode of God) – and moreover, If Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven, he must have been in his Mortal body, as you say he did not die, and yet thousands of years later Jesus said a man must be 'Born Again' to see God's Kingdom – AND – if Enochs body was made IMMORTAL, then how is Jesus PRE-EMINENT and the PRECURSOR of the 'New PERFECT MAN'? Kerwin, It is one thing to 'be mistaken' about something and that is immediately forgivable – it is completely another thing to openly and so incompetently state that the exact opposite of a truth, is truth! (Kerwin, points to consider (no need to answer to me). What is your point to the question of whether flesh and blood can enter Heaven when Heaven is the abode of Spirit? Can flesh and blood enter (exist in) 'Space' (The celestial Heavens) – no, only by being in a space craft or space suit breathing air as he would do on Earth. Basically a micro Earth environment – not a 'Celestial Environment'!)

Toby…………Good Post brother, I have tried to explain this befor to them where it say he “WAS NOT” does not mean He was still alive as they PRESUME>

peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………………..gene

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2012,09:35)

Nick, Here is selected quotes from the event.  How do you come up with the idea that Elijah went to anywhere but the heavens of God? 2 Kings 2 King James Version (KJV) 1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. … 5And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. … 7And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. … 9And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. – 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. … 16And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 17And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 18And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?

Kerwin.

In my fathers house are MANY mansions.

wakeup.

[Author]

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