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Acts 1:9
King James Version (KJV)9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
We are being taught that Jesus, in his flesh and bone body, ascended until he was hidden by a cloud.
Acts 1:11
King James Version (KJV)11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
We are also being taught that he will come in a like manner.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
King James Version (KJV)17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The righteous, whether resurrected or changed, will, in a like manner, be caught up and received by the clouds.
2 Corinthians 12
King James Version (KJV)2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.So if we apply this Scripture to Jesus and the righteous then they are caught up to the clouds either in the body or out of the body. Since Jesus bore his flesh and bone body it is clear he did not ascend out of body. As that is the case we know Jesus was observed being caught up into heaven in his flesh and bone body where he sits on his throne.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Pierre,That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,11:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Pierre,That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it.
Acts 7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,10:02) Hi KW,
But you cannot prove he entered heaven in that body?
Nick,The evidence is circumstantial but we do know that the apostles, given Paul's words in 2 Corinthians, would have no reason to doubt he took his body into heaven.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,11:30) Hi KW,
Wow you requiring little convincing.
Paul had no idea but you do?
Nick,Paul knew a man could either be snatched up into heaven in a body or not. He did not know which was the case in that event. We know more about Jesus ascension.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Pierre,That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it.
KSo Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?.
Steven ,he knew for sure he was there ,
And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his
Christ
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,11:30) Hi KW,
Wow you requiring little convincing.
Paul had no idea but you do?
Nick,Paul knew a man could either be snatched up into heaven in a body or not. He did not know which was the case in that event. We know more about Jesus ascension.
Hi KW,
Did he?
Or was he uncertain of his experience?To All………..The word Heavens in Hebrew is used to show Between to realms, there is a division those heavens the heaven just above the earth our atmosphere we live in and the upper atmosphere we can not live in with our present Bodies. Spiritually speaking If your of the earthly your mind thinks carnally, then you are from below. the “expansion” is in the middle, if your mind is from above you are of the above in your thinking. Spiritually it has nothing to do with “PHYSICAL LOCATION”. Genesis says God separated the Heavens above from the Heavens Below. So heaven can be Above or Below, Spiritually it is used as a Metaphor of separation mentally, Jesus and the Disciples and all those of GOD are from Above (MENTALLY) and those who are earthly thinkers are from below (MENTALLY).
While Genesis uses it to show how God separated the Heavens or atmospheres of the earth, the atmospheres,are divided into two TYPES the lower atmosphere and the upper atmosphere. This can be both Physical implied or Spiritually implied but the bottom line is it show a Expansion between (TYPES)> IN EITHER CASE> IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………………………………………gene
Hi Kerwin,
Apostle Paul says that he 'Did not know'whether the man he knew was in a Body or out of the Body when he was caught up to Heaven.
How is it then that you are saying that Paul 'Did know that it was in the body'?
Please present your reasoning for this?
Paul says he did not know whether in the body or out of the body!
Kerwin says 'Yes, Paul Knew it was the former of the two'!– How?
Dear all,
I offer my opinion on the topic question after careful consideration:
Paul says he knew such a man who was caught up to 'Paradise' (a Wonderful place) fourteen years ago but did not know if such a man was in the body or out the body.
Now, look at the first verse: it says he was looking into 'Visions and Revelations'.
He also says he cannot boast of himself (But there may be a hidden meaning here so tread carefully)
Remember that Paul was a zealous persecutor of the Jews and he was most prominently written about concerning the death of Steven.
Steven expressed that he saw – in a VISION – the Heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God (Trinitarians please take note that the Holy Spirit was 'not present in the revelation of Heaven!)
Now this could mean that Steven was 'caught up' to this Wonderful Place (Paradise / the Third Heaven, he calls it) and Steven was most certainly 'In Christ' at the time).
However, Paul might be saying that he did not know whether it was a PHYSICAL Sighting (In the Body) or a SPIRITUAL Sighting (By Steven's Spirit.
The other maybe his own REVELATION and VISION on the road to Damascus. Here, the man he boasts of seeing this vision would be his OLD SELF, SAUL of Tarsus!
He would be here saying that he did not know, whey or ney, as with Steven as it was also reported that no one else travelling with him saw the Vision nor heard the unspeakable things said by the voice.Kerwin, I think you have gravely misrepesented what is written in plain language as regards what Paul wrote.
The exact 'interpretation of his meaning' is something else for consideration though.
Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,12:39) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Pierre,That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it.
KSo Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?.
Steven ,he knew for sure he was there ,
And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his
Christ
Pierre,Read the account of Steven’s vision in Acts 7:54-56 and you will see he was not caught up into heaven. The words are “he gazed intently into heaven” and “I see the heavens opened up”. That does not match Paul’s description of the man who was caught up into Paradise even though Paul was also a witness of the event of Steven’s death.
The event Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians is not mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2012,15:25) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,12:39) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,23:05) Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2012,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,22:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,09:34) Hi KW,
Yes he did ascend in his flesh body.
The vision of men does not reach to heaven.
Nick,Unlike the man Paul writes of in 2 Corinthians 12, we know Jesus was in body when he was caught up to heaven.
Kthat was Steven
Pierre,That was not Steven, who had a vision of heaven, and was not caught up in it.
KSo Paul knew Jesus before the event of Damas .right ?.
Steven ,he knew for sure he was there ,
And Paul says he knew an man IN Christ ,would this mean he his
Christ
Pierre,Read the account of Steven’s vision in Acts 7:54-56 and you will see he was not caught up into heaven. The words are “he gazed intently into heaven” and “I see the heavens opened up”. That does not match Paul’s description of the man who was caught up into Paradise even though Paul was also a witness of the event of Steven’s death.
The event Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians is not mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.
Kwere was Paul 14 years earlier
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,15:57) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2012,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,11:30) Hi KW,
Wow you requiring little convincing.
Paul had no idea but you do?
Nick,Paul knew a man could either be snatched up into heaven in a body or not. He did not know which was the case in that event. We know more about Jesus ascension.
Hi KW,
Did he?
Or was he uncertain of his experience?
Nick,I see Paul as an expert on the doctrine and so knowledgeable about whether a man can be taken up into heaven either in body or out.
I see where he can lack knowledge of the details of a particular event without disparaging his expertise in the true doctrine.
Perhaps you see it differently.
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