Jesus, THE Messiah?

[Towshab]

What happened to the guards?

Mat 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mat 28:2  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3  His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4  And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5  And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6  He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7  And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mat 28:8  And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9  And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew has guards at the tomb of Jesus and Mary finding an angel who tells her Jesus has risen. But what does John say?

Joh 20:1  The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Joh 20:2  Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
Joh 20:3  Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
Joh 20:4  So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
Joh 20:5  And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
Joh 20:6  Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7  And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
Joh 20:8  Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
Joh 20:9  For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Joh 20:10  Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
Joh 20:11  But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12  And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Now if guards were at the tomb in Matthew, where did they go in John? And if she saw an angel when she first came to the tomb and spoke with Jesus on the way back, why does John have her coming back without meeting Jesus until she returned a second time, and telling the disciples that Jesus had been taken? Did not the angel tell her in Matthew he had risen?

[Samuel]

Hmm…

I'd like to say that you had better figure out some way to believe in Jesus Christ…Cause thats the only way your going to get to GOD.

Now…having said that I'd like to add my 2 cents …what is now my current belief based on certain evidence.

I believe that the Catholic Church had not yet come into power…in the days of all the wittings of the bible …maybe it has …like I said this is just a hunch belief and I need to do some more research to prove any validity in it. But nonetheless….while we are sharing thoughts I'll continue. If anyone has any further information on this topic just feel free to post it so that we might all be able to benefit from it. Ok back to the story or belief…Its my belief that if it was not already in power…it was trying to or coming together or getting ready to come together. Because based on a lot of the catholic beliefs I believe that that whole church is the in fact “SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST” however I could very well be wrong…if anyone is catholic. Anyhow, I believe the Catholic Church is one of those beasts, and I believe that this scripture gets you wondering:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Attention to the “and even now already is it in the world” Now…one might argue that That is just the spirit of unbelief in Christ…which may very well be the case. However, if it is in any way insinuating that the Spirit of “THE” Anti-Christ was already in the world at that time…then it very well could have been referring to the people that were planning on or trying to start the catholic church.

Whew!…lol

Now, if thats the case. Then…yes…it is very possible that the Catholic Church got hold of some of the Original Scripts/Texts or what ever they are called formerly of the bible…thus adding to are taking away from them:

Revelation 22 (King James Version)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ok…so one might want to argue that, that never happened…well we don't know…it could have. However, even if it did not happen at that time …I feel that it has been changed up somewhat by someone one or some thing at some point.

You want to know how I know this….? Because if it were not true GOD would have never saw fit to add the above scripture into the bible. He knew something like this would eventually happen. I do feel that he has kept the “Gist” of his word together…in other words the parts that you need to learn how to be saved and serve him. And that if you pray and fast you will probably be reveled unto you a great many things. If you seek you shall find. That was his promise:

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Luke 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Nonetheless with all these translations out someone has bound to have messed up some stuff somewhere and deceived a multitude of people…and they shall have their reward for doing so I would imagine.

So, this should probably explain some of why some things are harder to make sense of than others…because the translation or translations were translated in the frame set of mind of a catholic doctrine…or at least some of it.

But…

No matter what who has distorted or changed or taught or mislead people to believe, You really need not get your self side tracked…brothers and sisters. Please, don't lose sight of the mark. Please…I pray that you set your Faith in the Foundation of the Chief Corner Stone. Get your spiritual feet planted on that ROCK! I'm telling you…you better buy into this. You better buy into to the Lord Jesus Christ Being that ROCK that the gates of hell are not going to be able to prevail against.
Cause when the storm comes…someone attacks your Trinity belief…someone attacks your Oneness belief…someone attacks your belief about baptism…someone attacks your belief about the rapture…or whatever it is…Brothers…Sisters…your surely going to fall if you don't have your feet PLANTED on/in that ROCK!
I speak the truth to you on this for sure…please believe me. Thats your ticket out of here…thats your get out of jail free card, don't throw it away.

This is Satans whole entire focus…all his thought is bent on it. The catholic church, threads like this. Ways…to deceive people into not believing on Jesus Christ…that hes not real…or he didn't come…or hes not the right one…or hes not the way…I'm telling you right now HE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT!
And you better buy some stock in it…I can't express this enough…I really feel a burden in my soul about this very thread even being up here.

I'll tell you what if you don't think hes the real deal why don't you just get down on your knees and get in your prayer closet and pray to him…CRY OUT to him…and see if something don't happen…Try Jesus.
Just try him out…I promise you you won't be trying to get your money back.

[Samuel]

PRAISE GOD…THANK YOU JESUS…OH THANK YOU JESUS FOR NOT COMING DOWN OFF THAT CROSS…THANK YOU JESUS THANK YOU JESUS! Glory! the enemy has been defeated …Victory in the LORD JESUS CHRIST…the Living Christ…the Perfect LAMB. There is Power in the Blood of the lamb! Power! Power! Wonder working Power! in the precious blood of the lamb!

PRAISE GOD… and GOD BLESS you all.
Whew! I'm telling you I feel the Holy Ghost all over me right now.

GLORY!

[Morningstar]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 24 2007,17:39)

PRAISE GOD…THANK YOU JESUS…OH THANK YOU JESUS FOR NOT COMING DOWN OFF THAT CROSS…THANK YOU JESUS THANK YOU JESUS!  Glory! the enemy has been defeated …Victory in the LORD JESUS CHRIST…the Living Christ…the Perfect LAMB.  There is Power in the Blood of the lamb! Power! Power! Wonder working Power! in the precious blood of the lamb! PRAISE GOD… and GOD BLESS you all. Whew! I'm telling you I feel the Holy Ghost all over me right now.   GLORY!

Because nobody every spoke like Jesus.

Sure wise men said “love one another” or “feed the poor” and a number of simular good words.

However, to me nobody has every so completely spoke such words or lived the way Jesus did.

I also believe that Daniel 9 tells us exactly when the Messiah would come, when counting from the date Jerusalem was to be rebuilt. Jesus arrived precisely at the right time.

If Jesus is not the Messiah then nobody was and there never will be one, because he missed his arrival date.

24 “A period of seventy sets of seven[c] has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[d] 25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven[e] will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One[f]—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses,[g] despite the perilous times.

Daniel 9

24 “A period of seventy sets of seven[c] has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[d] 25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven[e] will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One[f]—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses,[g] despite the perilous times.

26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven,[h] the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 24 2007,17:39)

PRAISE GOD…THANK YOU JESUS…OH THANK YOU JESUS FOR NOT COMING DOWN OFF THAT CROSS…THANK YOU JESUS THANK YOU JESUS!  Glory! the enemy has been defeated …Victory in the LORD JESUS CHRIST…the Living Christ…the Perfect LAMB.  There is Power in the Blood of the lamb! Power! Power! Wonder working Power! in the precious blood of the lamb! PRAISE GOD… and GOD BLESS you all. Whew! I'm telling you I feel the Holy Ghost all over me right now.   GLORY!

Brother Sam,

You are a blessing! And your zeal makes me smile….

[Admin]

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 24 2007,16:02)

Sorry, this board seems to do weird stuff with posts.

Your closing tag should be [/color] not [/quote]

Luk 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, [/quote]

[Towshab]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 24 2007,17:35)

Hmm… I\'d like to say that you had better figure out some way to believe in Jesus Christ…Cause thats the only way your going to get to GOD.

Can you show me such in the Jewish bible? G-d never told the children that they would ever have to believe in a man to have a relationship with him. In fact, the children had thousands of years of a relationship with Hashem without the need for a human sacrifice (which G-d detests).

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Now…having said that I\'d like to add my 2 cents …what is now my current belief based on certain evidence. I believe that the Catholic Church had not yet come into power…in the days of all the wittings of the bible …maybe it has …like I said this is just a hunch belief and I need to do some more research to prove any validity in it.  But nonetheless….while we are sharing thoughts I\'ll continue.  If anyone has any further information on this topic just feel free to post it so that we might all be able to benefit from it.   Ok back to the story or belief…Its my belief that if it was not already in power…it was trying to or coming together or getting ready to come together.  Because based on a lot of the catholic beliefs I believe that that whole church is the in fact \”SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST\”  however I could very well be wrong…if anyone is catholic.   Anyhow, I believe the Catholic Church is one of those beasts, and I believe that this scripture gets you wondering: 1 John 4:3   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Attention to the \”and even now already is it in the world\”  Now…one might argue that That is just the spirit of unbelief in Christ…which may very well be the case.  However, if it is in any way insinuating that the Spirit of \”THE\” Anti-Christ was already in the world at that time…then it very well could have been referring to the people that were planning on or trying to start the catholic church. Whew!…lol Now, if thats the case.   Then…yes…it is very possible that the Catholic Church got hold of some of the Original Scripts/Texts or what ever they are called formerly of the bible…thus adding to are taking away from them: Revelation 22 (King James Version) 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So much infighting in Christianity. You\'re so busy telling each other where you are wrong and you want others to believe in this? The catholics say everyone else is lost, the protestants say the catholic church is the whore of babylon. Mainstream evangelicals call JWs, Mormons, Christadelphians, etc. cults and lost. Yet they all have one thing in common: idol worship. They worship the image of G-d and not G-d.

G-d never said that we were to worship the Messiah. G-d would never say to worship another for He is a jealous G-d.

Strange you should list the above about adding or taking away from Revelation (it is a stipulation for that book only).

Deu 4:2  Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deu 4:40  Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Hashem tells us that His commandments, His Torah, is everlasting and that we should not add or take away from it. Yet, Christianity does that.

If I were a Christian, I would fear what G-d tells us before this Greek Christian bible was ever written

Psa 111:1  Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation.
Psa 111:2  The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.
Psa 111:3  His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
Psa 111:4  He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion.
Psa 111:5  He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant.
Psa 111:6  He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
Psa 111:7  The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psa 111:8  They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Psa 111:9  He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
Psa 111:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Yet some hired Roman temple guard comes along (Paul) and tells people they don\'t need to do any of this. Paul must have despised his heritage.

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Ok…so one might want to argue that, that never happened…well we don\'t know…it could have.  However, even if it did not happen at that time …I feel that it has been changed up somewhat by someone one or some thing at some point. You want to know how I know this….?  Because if it were not true GOD would have never saw fit to add the above scripture into the bible.  He knew something like this would eventually happen.  I do feel that he has kept the \”Gist\” of his word together…in other words the parts that you need to learn how to be saved and serve him.  And that if you pray and fast you will probably be reveled unto you a great many things.  If you seek you shall find.  That was his promise: Matthew 7:7   Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Luke 11:9     And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Nonetheless with all these translations out someone has bound to have messed up some stuff somewhere and deceived a multitude of people…and they shall have their reward for doing so I would imagine.

Yes, Paul the apostate started this idol worship 2000 years ago and men are still falling into the trap.

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So, this should probably explain some of why some things are harder to make sense of than others…because the translation or translations were translated in the frame set of mind of a catholic doctrine…or at least some of it.

How about all of it? The Christian bible is a catholic work. Paul being the first catholic.

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But… No matter what who has distorted or changed or taught or mislead people to believe, You really need not get your self side tracked…brothers and sisters.   Please, don\'t lose sight of the mark.   Please…I pray that you set your Faith in the Foundation of the Chief Corner Stone.  Get your spiritual feet planted on that ROCK!  I\'m telling you…you better buy into this.  You better buy into to the Lord Jesus Christ Being that ROCK that the gates of hell are not going to be able to prevail against.

\”Buy into\” Jesus? I\'ve never hear a Christian turn Jesus into a sales gimmick.

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Cause when the storm comes…someone attacks your Trinity belief…someone attacks your Oneness belief…someone attacks your belief about baptism…someone attacks your belief about the rapture…or whatever it is…Brothers…Sisters…your surely going to fall if you don\'t have your feet PLANTED on/in that ROCK! I speak the truth to you on this for sure…please believe me.  Thats your ticket out of here…thats your get out of jail free card, don\'t throw it away. This is Satans whole entire focus…all his thought is bent on it.  The catholic church, threads like this.  Ways…to deceive people into not believing on Jesus Christ…that hes not real…or he didn\'t come…or hes not the right one…or hes not the way…I\'m telling you right now HE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT! And you better buy some stock in it…I can\'t express this enough…I really feel a burden in my soul about this very thread even being up here. I\'ll tell you what if you don\'t think hes the real deal why don\'t you just get down on your knees and get in your prayer closet and pray to him…CRY OUT to him…and see if something don\'t happen…Try Jesus. Just try him out…I promise you you won\'t be trying to get your money back.

I tried Jesus for many, many years and it was a good life. But I woke up one day and realized that G-d alone deserves our praise and dedication. I could no longer believe in something that took Judaism and married it with first century mythologies to attract followers.

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 24 2007,18:18)

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 24 2007,17:39) PRAISE GOD…THANK YOU JESUS…OH THANK YOU JESUS FOR NOT COMING DOWN OFF THAT CROSS…THANK YOU JESUS THANK YOU JESUS!  Glory! the enemy has been defeated …Victory in the LORD JESUS CHRIST…the Living Christ…the Perfect LAMB.  There is Power in the Blood of the lamb! Power! Power! Wonder working Power! in the precious blood of the lamb! PRAISE GOD… and GOD BLESS you all. Whew! I'm telling you I feel the Holy Ghost all over me right now.   GLORY! Because nobody every spoke like Jesus.   Sure wise men said “love one another” or “feed the poor”  and a number of simular good words. However, to me nobody has every so completely spoke such words or lived the way Jesus did.

Only one problem – besides your belief and the Christian bible, can you show me where any historian around Jesus' day mentioned him? Surely a man who could attract 5000 would merit some notice. Surely someone would have noticed when the sky turned black, the dead rose from their graves, and an earthquake rocked the area during his crucifixion. Yet, the historians are silent.

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I also believe that Daniel 9 tells us exactly when the Messiah would come, when counting from the date Jerusalem was to be rebuilt.  Jesus arrived precisely at the right time.

Give your analysis of Daniel 9 if you would.

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If Jesus is not the Messiah then nobody was and there never will be one, because he missed his arrival date. 24 “A period of seventy sets of seven[c] has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[d] 25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven[e] will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One[f]—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses,[g] despite the perilous times. Daniel 9 24 “A period of seventy sets of seven[c] has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[d] 25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven[e] will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One[f]—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses,[g] despite the perilous times. 26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven,[h] the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

How many times is “messiah” mentioned the Jewish scriptures? The Hewbrew words is 'mâshîyach'. It was used of priests and kings, not just THE Messiah. 'mâshîyach', like 'christos', means annointed. The prophecy in Daniel is not speaking of the THE Messiah.

[Towshab]

Messiah? The word is 'moshiach' (the closest english), and can be found many times in the Jewish bible. Here are some instances (from the KJV)

1Sa 24:6  And he said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD'S anointed ('moshiach'), to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.

Isa 45:1  Thus saith the LORD to his anointed ('moshiach'), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Yet the KJV writers decided to capitalize it in Daniel 9, because is sounded like a good passage for Jesus. It is still 'moshiach'. In fact, the KJV translates the word as 'annointed' every other time in the Jewish bible (37 times) except in Daniel 9:25-26.

Can't find Jesus in the Jewish bible? Don't worry, the catholic church tried their best to put him there.

[Towshab]

Can anyone here show me why Jesus was needed?

If you say atonement, I will show you later why this thought is false. Also, if so, his blood was never sprinkled on an altar, therefore his sacrifice was invalid for sins.

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

I'd just like to post a few scriptures from the Jewish bible.  Please give me your understanding.

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Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

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Psalm 110     1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many F324 countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head

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Psalms 2   1 Why do the heathen rage, F3 and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex F4 them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set F5 my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: F6 the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him

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Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them

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Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliveran

This following has already been mentioned, but you say that it doesn't refer to the Messiah.  To whom then does it refer?  Also, if it does refer to the Messiah, there is a portion of the scripture which I understand to refer to the destruction of the Jewish temple by Titus in 70 A.D.  If this scripture does refer to the Messiah, then that would mean that he has already come.

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.Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built F69 again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant F70 with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Quote

Isaiah 53   1 Who hath believed our report F242? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid a s it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded F243 for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid F244 on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison F245 and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; F246 because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God Bless

[Morningstar]

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/weeks.htm

Here is the theory. Am I dogmatic about this? No. And if it isn't exactly accurate it wouldn't hinder my faith. This is only one reason for my faith out of many.

Daniel's “Seventy Weeks” prophecy:
A detailed look at Daniel 9:24-27
Below is a detailed look at Daniel 9:24-27. Much of our commentary below is based on Josh McDowell's book, “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict”, pages 197-201:

PART ONE:
A chronological summary of Daniel 9:24-26

1. There would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
2. Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
3. Then an anointed one (messiah) would be “cut off” (an idiom for “rejected” or “killed”).
4. Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.

I came up with this summary after reading various renderings of this verse in various translations of the Christian Bible and of the Jewish Tanakh. (The Tanakh is the Jewish Bible; it contains the writings of what we Christians refer to as the Old Testament). I believe that this chronology fits most of the renderings that I have seen, whether they are translations by Christians or by Judaists. My summary is in no way original – many Christians, such as Josh McDowell, have come up with the same chronology long before I did.

PART TWO:
A summary of how Daniel 9:24-26 was fulfilled

All of these events later happened, in the same order in which they are described in Daniel 9:24-26:

1. After the Medo-Persians had conquered the Babylonian empire about 2540 years ago, they ruled a vast empire that included the land of Israel. About 2446 years ago (about 445 BC), Persian king Artaxerxes gave permission to the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem, which was still in ruins after having been destroyed earlier by the Babylonians.

2. The Jews rebuilt the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.

3. Then, in about 33 AD, Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah who had been promised by Old Testament prophets. But, many people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and He was crucified by the Romans.

4. About 40 years after Jesus was crucified, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (The Temple has not been rebuilt since then).

PART THREE:
How Daniel 9:24-26 was “Fulfilled to the day” according to scholars such as Josh McDowell

First, McDowell, and other scholars, separate the prophecy into three parts:

1. The “7 sevens” in Daniel 9:25.

2. The “62 sevens” in Daniel 9:25.

3. And the 70th “seven” in Daniel 9:27.

Then, they combine the first two periods for a total of 69 “sevens.” They combined the first two periods because it is at after the completion of those two periods that the anointed one appears, and that's what we are trying to calculate – when the anointed one was supposed to appear.

Next, they interpret the “sevens” as “seven years” or periods of seven years, rather than a period of seven days or seven weeks or seven months. Part of the reason that this is interpreted as “years” is because of the reference to “years” in Daniel 9:2. (Daniel 9:2 refers to the “seventy years” prophecy that Jeremiah spoke of in Jeremiah 25).

PART FOUR:
The mathematics of calculating Daniel 9:24-26 and the issue of the 360-day “prophetic” calendar

At this point, we're adding the 7 “sevens” and the 62 “sevens” for a total of 69 “sevens”. And we are interpreting the 69 “sevens” to mean 69 periods of seven years, for a total of 483 years. So, we are saying that there would be a period of 483 years from the time that a decree is given to rebuild Jerusalem to the time that a Messiah is to appear.

Some Christian scholars say that the period of 483 years should not be thought of in terms of our modern solar calendar which is based on a 365.25 days to a year. Instead, we are to use a “prophetic” calendar which has 360 days to a year. Many ancient calendars, including the Jewish calendar, were based on a lunar year of 12 months, with each month lasting 30 days each. Many ancient peoples, including the ancient Jews, did realize that there actually were more than 360 days to a year and so they would tack on an extra five days at some point during the year.

Another reason some scholars say that we should apply a 360-day calendar to Daniel's prophecy is because of various Bible references that allude to a fixed 30-day month view of time. For example, in Genesis 7:24, it says that the flood lasted 150 days. And, in Genesis 7:11, it says the flood began in the 17th day of the second month. And in Genesis 8:4, it says that the flood subsided on the 17th day of the seventh month, when the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. So, these passages present us a 5-month period of time that is described as being 150 days in length. And that of course is five 30-day months.

There are other Bible passages that indicate that time is being measured in fixed 30-day month periods. Revelation 12:6 mentions a 1,260 day period which, in my view, clearly relates to the three-and-a-half-year period mentioned in Revelation 12:13-14 and in Daniel 9:27. For three-and-a-half years to equal 1,260 days, one would have to measure years in 360-day increments. That of course doesn't mean that the earth's orbit of the sun is going to speed up or change, it just simply means that the prophetic year is a measure of time in which a “year” has 360 days, nothing more, nothing less. It's no different than weighing a bag of groceries using the metric system of kilograms and then using the old English system of pounds and ounces. It is not that one system causes the groceries to weigh more or less, but rather the two systems describe the weight in different units. So too does the prophetic year in comparison to our solar calendar – it uses a different system to measure time.

So, we take the 483 years that we had calculated earlier and we multiply the 483 by 360. In other words, we are viewing the 483 year period described in Daniel 9:25 as “prophetic years” of 360 days each. And, 483 times 360 equals 173,880. And that gives us a total of 173,880 days.

Now, we want to apply these 173,880 days to our calendar, which has 365.25 days to a year. Why? So that we can use our calendar in trying to figure out the year that this part of Daniel's prophecy was to begin its fulfillment and when this part of Daniel's prophecy was to be completed. So, we divide the 173,880 days into years of 365.25 days. And, that equals 476 (solar) years. Now, we need to figure out when this 476 year period was supposed to begin.

PART FIVE:
When was Daniel's “69 weeks of years” supposed to begin?

At this point we are trying to figure out when the 476-year period begins. The prophecy in Daniel 9:24-26 begins with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Many people have proposed different years for different decrees. And I won't pretend to have the “only correct answer,” because I don't know if I have that or not. In any event, here are four decrees that are often discussed in relation to Daniel 9:24-26:

1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4)
2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7)
3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)
4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)

As cited in McDowell's book, a Christian scholar named J.D. Wilson contends that only the decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah applies to this prophecy. As cited in McDowell's book, Wilson explains:

” The words of the decree are not given, but its subject matter can easily be determined. Nehemiah hears of the desolate condition of Jerusalem. He is deeply grieved. The King asks the reason. Nehemiah replies, 'the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire.' The King bids him make request. He does so promptly, asking for an order to from t
he King that 'I be sent to the city that I may build it.' And, as we read, he was sent, and he rebuilt Jerusalem. ”

And so, that is J.D. Wilson's reason for using the Artaxerxes to Nehemiah. The next issue is finding a date for that decree. McDowell, page 199 of his “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” reads:

” The decree was given in 444 B.C., based on the following:
1. 'In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes' (Nehemiah 2:1).
2. Artaxerxes' accession was in 465 B.C.
3. There is no day-of-month specified, so according to the Jewish custom the date is understood as the first day of the month, which would be Nisan 1, 444 BC.
4. March 5, 444 B.C. is our corresponding calendar date. ”

(Many scholars use the March 5 date, but not all use the 444 BC year. Some use 445 BC as the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. I myself haven't done enough research to decide which year is most likely to be the correct year). Regardless of whether you accept the date as being March 5, 444 BC or March 5, 445 BC, we now have a starting point for Daniel's prophecy.

PART SIX:
When was Daniel's “69 weeks of years” supposed to end?

We are now at the point where we can try to pinpoint when the Messiah was supposed to make his appearance. If we agree on the points that have been made earlier, then we simply calculate 476 years into the future, using 444 BC as the starting point. To do that, if I am not mistaken, we count 443 BC as the first of the 476 years. Why – because the first began in 444 BC and it ended in 443 BC. So we start counting from 443 BC. So, we have 443 years on the BC side of measuring time and that leaves us with 33 years on the AD side to account for the full 476 years. Using this formula, we arrive at 33 AD the year in time in which the Messiah was to appear.

And that would correspond to the time that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. The reason the donkey is important is that in Zechariah 9:9, the prophet Zechariah speaks of a King riding a donkey and presenting himself as the King to Jerusalem.

Alfred Edersheim, a Christian Jew who lived during the 1800s, studied ancient Rabbinical writings, and said that Zechariah 9:9 was often interpreted as being about a Messiah. In the book, “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah,” Edersheim wrote: “The Messianic application of this verse in all its parts has already been repeatedly indicated. We may here add that there are many traditions about this donkey on which the Messiah is to ride; and so firm was the belief in it, that, according to the Talmud, `if anyone saw a donkey in his dreams, he will see salvation' (Ber 56 b).”

So then, what better way for a Messiah to announce himself in Jerusalem than to enter the great city on the back of a humble donkey?

There are theories that pinpoint the exact date of the exact year that Jesus rode into Jerusalem. The dates that I have seen in my review of other people's research is April 6, either April 6, 32 AD, or April 6, 33 AD. (And, again, the difference in the year depends on whether the 20th year of Artaxerxes was in 444 BC or 445 BC). And, some scholars have claimed that there are exactly 173,880 days from March 5, 444 BC to April 6, 33 AD (and, 173,880 days from March 5, 445 BC to April 6, 32 AD).

PART SEVEN:
What ancient Rabbis thought of Daniel 9:24-26

I found a Web site that pulls together various ancient writings from Rabbis, commenting on Daniel, chapter 9. That Web site's address is: http://www.inerrancy.org/dan.htm

According to that Web site, at least a handful of ancient Rabbis agree that it is correct to view Daniel 9 as providing a timeline for the arrival of a Messiah. Below are a few examples that I copied verbatim from that Web site:

” 1a. Maimonides (Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon): “Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah” (Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p.24.) ”

” 1b. Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi: “I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel (The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971) p.141-142 (These two quotes were taken from The Creator Beyond Time and Space by Mark Eastman, M.D. and Chuck Missler (The Word for Today, 1996)). ”

Assuming that these citations are accurate renderings of what the Rabbis had said, it seems clear that these Rabbis believed that Daniel 9:24-26 referred to a Messiah, a very important Messiah, and that the Bible passage provided the information needed to calculate the Messiah's arrival. As for the first example, Maimonides of course was a Judaist, not a Christian, and so from his point of view, the prophecy had not yet been fulfilled. And that would account for his comments about calculating the Messiah's arrival.

PART EIGHT:
My conclusions about Daniel's “69 weeks of years”

Perhaps we can't all agree, at this time, on every specific detail involved in calculating a starting point for Daniel's prophecy about the 69 weeks of years. But, eventually, we might have additional information from archaeologists and historians to help pinpoint that starting point. But at this present time, it seems to me that there is widespread agreement among Christian scholars on the following issues:

1. That there is evidence in the Bible to support the concept of the “prophetic calendar” which measures time in terms of 360-day years.

2. That there is evidence in the Bible to support the view that the decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah is, or at least could be, the starting point of Daniel's prophecy.

3. That there is strong evidence from historians and archaeologists to pinpoint “twentieth year of Artaxerxes” as being either 444 BC or 445 BC.

4. That the events described in Daniel's prophecy do line up as follows:
• That there would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
• Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
• Then an anointed one (messiah) would make his appearance and then be “cut off.”
• Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.

[Morningstar]

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 25 2007,00:20)

Can anyone here show me why Jesus was needed? If you say atonement, I will show you later why this thought is false. Also, if so, his blood was never sprinkled on an altar, therefore his sacrifice was invalid for sins.

The early christians believed the “ransom” doctrine of the atonement.

This doctrine of atonement is scriptural and was believed for a long long time in christianity.

Since that time St. Anselm (c. 1033 – 1109) invented a new doctrine of atonement. It is this doctrine that most christians believe today.

I suggest studying both and deciding which is more likely. Which is scriptural.

I think you will find that the early christians had it right. It should help answer your question.

[Samuel]

I'm not making it a sales gimmick.

Without blood there is no remission of sins. Thats why Jesus had to die.

I'll just pray that you find what you seek. I hope that in the end its the right decision.

[Towshab]

942767,

I'll start with each of your passages and work one per post. The first is Deu 18:15-19 (KJV). I use the KJV because you have easy access to it.
——–
Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
——–
While this is quoted from in the Christian bible, don't assume automatically that it is about Jesus. If I was going to prove a point about my man being the Messiah, I'd use the Jewish scriptures to prove my point as well. That aside, I want to direct you to the last 2 verses in that same chapter.
——–
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
——–
Now, if a prophet is a true prophet of Hashem, all of his prophecies will come to pass. Yet Jesus had at least one that did not.
——–
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Wait, its been almost 2000 years since Jesus said this. Which one of the people he spoke to here is still alive? Failed prophecy, false prophet. I guess the next avenue would be to speak of a symbolic death, such as the final death, but that doesn't fly. Many people in Jesus day were still looking for him to return. Still looking today.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Is 2000 years quickly? Looks like his prophecies are still failing.

[Towshab]

942767,

Next, we'll talk about Psalm 110

Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

First thing off the bat, just because this is a Psalm of David does not mean it is a psalm by David. In fact, Darby starts out in verse 1 with 'Psalm for David'. Also, Psalm 72 is a Psalm of Solomon but it is clear it is written about Solomon and not by Solomon. Psalm 144 is a Psalm of David but verse 10 shows David in third person.

Next, most Christian bibles take the liberty of capitalizing 'lord' because they feel it is speaking of Jesus. Again, we have an example of 'reading back' into scripture to make it appear to apply to the Christian messiah. Jesus is called Lord in the Christian bible, the Jewish bible has 'lord' in Psalm 110, all neat and clean right?

This passage could very well be messianic. Only one problem then – Jesus did not fulfill this. I know Christians are waiting for a second coming where all of the unfulfilled prophecies will take place, but there is not a single bit of evidence in the Hebrew bible that the Messiah will not fulfill all of the prophecies the first time. If he does not, he is not the Messiah. Plain as that.

He was never a priest. Paul and his bunch try to get away from that by calling him a high priest in heaven but that finds no support on the Jewish bible either.

Jesus died on the cross (if he even existed). End of his run as a supposed messiah. Which, by the way, means 'anointed'. Yet, he never was properly anointed with oil.

Finally, will Jesus need to 'drink in a brook'?

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 25 2007,08:13)

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 25 2007,00:20) Can anyone here show me why Jesus was needed? If you say atonement, I will show you later why this thought is false. Also, if so, his blood was never sprinkled on an altar, therefore his sacrifice was invalid for sins. The early christians believed the “ransom” doctrine of the atonement. This doctrine of atonement is scriptural and was believed for a long long time in christianity. Since that time St. Anselm (c. 1033 – 1109) invented a new doctrine of atonement. It is this doctrine that most christians believe today. I suggest studying both and deciding which is more likely. Which is scriptural. I think you will find that the early christians had it right. It should help answer your question.

Do Jews need an atonement by the blood of Jesus?

The first thing you need to realize is that blood only atones for one type of sin – unintentional (Numbers 15:27-31). So if Jesus' blood is all you have, only those sins you committed unintentionally would be covered.
——–
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
——–
So you better hope that you have no intentional sins in your life because blood will not cover them! But let's say blood is the only way. Is it?
——–
Lev 5:11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
——–
The poor among the children had a way to atone for sins as well then, with no need for the shedding of blood. But where does the idea for blood only being sufficient come from? Lev 17:11, but we'll expand the passage
——–
Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
——–
Wait just a second here, this presents a whole new problem with Jesus that I never realized. Lev 17:10 says that anyone who eats a manner of blood shall be cut off. What does Jesus say?
——–
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
——–
This is a powerful message here. Hashem says in Lev 17:10 to not partake of blood of any manner, but Jesus has Christians 'drinking his blood'. If that is not a contradiction of the Almighty, I do not know what is. I'm almost floored by this discovery.
——–
Lev 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

Lev 7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Deu 12:16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.
——–
Next time you are partaking of communion, I suggest you pour the grape juice out on the earth. But what about Ninevah? They were Gentiles and did not have a sacrificial system.
——–
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
——–
Ninevah fasted, covered themselves with sackcloth, prayed, and repented. The L-rd forgave them without a sacrifice! There are more, and some of them are popular among Christians
——–
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hos 14:2 [ESV] Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips.
——–
So as you see, if Jesus dies for sins, his sacrifice was for the weakest of sins, those that are unintentional.

[Morningstar]

Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 25 2007,12:56)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 25 2007,08:13) Quote (Towshab @ Oct. 25 2007,00:20) Can anyone here show me why Jesus was needed? If you say atonement, I will show you later why this thought is false. Also, if so, his blood was never sprinkled on an altar, therefore his sacrifice was invalid for sins. The early christians believed the “ransom” doctrine of the atonement. This doctrine of atonement is scriptural and was believed for a long long time in christianity. Since that time St. Anselm (c. 1033 – 1109) invented a new doctrine of atonement.  It is this doctrine that most christians believe today.   I suggest studying both and deciding which is more likely. Which is scriptural. I think you will find that the early christians had it right.  It should help answer your question. Do Jews need an atonement by the blood of Jesus? The first thing you need to realize is that blood only atones for one type of sin – unintentional (Numbers 15:27-31). So if Jesus' blood is all you have, only those sins you committed unintentionally would be covered. ——– Num 15:27  And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. Num 15:28  And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Num 15:29  Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. Num 15:30  But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Num 15:31  Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. ——– So you better hope that you have no intentional sins in your life because blood will not cover them! But let's say blood is the only way. Is it? ——– Lev 5:11  But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering. Lev 5:12  Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering. Lev 5:13  And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering. ——– The poor among the children had a way to atone for sins as well then, with no need for the shedding of blood. But where does the idea for blood only being sufficient come from? Lev 17:11, but we'll expand the passage ——– Lev 17:10  And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Lev 17:11  For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:12  Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. Lev 17:13  And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. Lev 17:14  For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. ——– Wait just a second here, this presents a whole new problem with Jesus that I never realized. Lev 17:10 says that anyone who eats a manner of blood shall be cut off. What does Jesus say? ——– Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. ——– This is a powerful message here. Hashem says in Lev 17:10 to not partake of blood of any manner, but Jesus has Christians 'drinking his blood'. If that is not a contradiction of the Almighty, I do not know what is. I'm almost floored by this discovery. ——– Lev 3:17  It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Lev 7:27  Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people. Deu 12:16  Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water. ——– Next time you are partaking of communion, I suggest you pour the grape juice out on the earth. But what about Ninevah? They were Gentiles and did not have a sacrificial system. ——– Jon 3:7  And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: Jon 3:8  But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Jon 3:9  Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? Jon 3:10  And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. ——– Ninevah fasted, covered themselves with sackcloth, prayed, and repented. The L-rd forgave them without a sacrifice! There are more, and some of them are popular among Christians ——– 2Ch 7:14  If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Job 33:26  He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. Psa 51:16  For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. Psa 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Hos 14:2 [ESV]  Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips. ——– So as you see, if Jesus dies for sins, his sacrifice was for the weakest o f sins, those that are unintentional.

Like I said read up on the ransom doctrine of the early church. half of your arguements fall flat in light of that.

[Towshab]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 25 2007,10:54)

I'm not making it a sales gimmick. Without blood there is no remission of sins. Thats why Jesus had to die. I'll just pray that you find what you seek. I hope that in the end its the right decision.

Wrong. See my post above to Morningstar. The Jewish bible gives many examples of how people can receive forgiveness of sins. Blood is not required and really only covers the least of sins, those that are unintentional.

[Towshab]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 25 2007,13:31)

Like I said read up on the ransom doctrine of the early church. half of your arguements fall flat in light of that.

Haha, so this ransom doctrine of early catholicism overrides the Holy Scriptures of YHVH? You are pretty bold to say so. Do you worship the pope?

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