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Ah Mikeboll,
According to you, Spirits in heaven have 'Wings'.
Does Jesus have 'Wings'?
According to you, Spirits have Spiritual Body which means that Jesus had a Spiritual Body before he came as Man and as Man and when he was dead in the grave but he can't be dead because the Spiritual Body cannot die and as an raised body but he was already in a Spirit ual Body when he was transformed into a Spiritual Body and became a Soirit in a Spiritual Body inside another Spiritual Body.Tell me again how Jesus is in Spiritual Body in Heaven before coming as a Man. Did he discard his Spiritual Body or was he still in it while on Earth?
If he was in it while on Earth then how did he die?
If he was in a Spiritual Body, what need was there for a second Spiritual Body?
Oh, and are the Elect to have a body 'just like Jesus has' – a Lamb as if slain.
Mikeboll, I notice you don't address any of the aspects concerning the bodies of Spirits having bodies with wings and Jesus not having Wings, and the body of Jesus being a Lamb but no Spirit ever looked like a lamb and Jesus looking like a man with a tongue that is a double edged sword and flaming eyes and feet of bronze.
Mikeboll, do you want to start again?
Quote (toby @ Mar. 28 2012,18:21) Mikeboll, do you want to start again?
Yes Toby. Let's start again.Start by posting your first scripture that teaches us spirit beings don't have bodies.
Mike
Jesus’ body that perished was not from heaven, as it perished. The body that is from heaven is not subject to decay; it is immortal.
The body from heaven is called spiritual while the body from this world is unspiritual.
Jesus bore the body from this world upon the cross; where it perished. It was buried in the tomb where it changed from the seed it was to the body from above; just as it is written:
1 Corinthians 15
New International Version (NIV)42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
You state that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Reign of God; but do you understand it? The reign of God, in the time to come, will be both in heaven and on earth. At that time there will be nothing of the world and none of those that love the world. That includes the unspiritual flesh and blood of this age.
Then there is the spiritual flesh and bone that is given life by the Spirit of God. It is not the same flesh that God declared he would stop struggling with; instead it is the flesh man was created with before creation was subjected to decay; as creation will be freed.
We will not be a spirit with a spirit body (structure) as the soul is spirit with a spirit body (structure) and thus we would be naked. We will not be clothed in a weak body; that God’s Spirit does not struggle with. Instead we will be clothed with a body made strong by the Spirit.
There is nowhere in Scripture that it is written that those in heaven have either no bodies or spirit bodies. The only thing written directly on the subject is Paul did not know if a man was caught up into in his body or out. That is enough to teach us material bodies can exist in heaven.
We also know the Greek word for animal is applied to some heavenly beings in Revelations. The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel to describe the cherubim has a similar meaning. From that it is concluded that some angels are both non-human and living. It is also clear that the body of the cherubim is not the body of the man-like angels that visited Lot. Those angels that visited Lot demonstrated they were not spirits by touching Lot and eating food.
The bodies of the angels are not being subjected to decay because angels are a little higher than mankind; therefore Adam’s curse did not affect them. Their bodies are immortal as they are powered by the Spirit of God. Their bodies are from heaven even when an angel is unspiritual; living according to a worldly spirit. There are humans that have unspiritual bodies but heavenly spirits. That will not be the case in the World to come.
Hi Mikeboll,
You said:Quote Yes Toby. Let's start again. So you are admitting you have no where to go with your false belief.
You claimed that Spirits have Bodies in Heaven and had Scriptures to prove it. So far everything you have presented as those proofs have been in vain and tainted by false presentations by means of redefinitions of commonly known words and terms, added or removed words or terms, skipped sections of verses (picking out only parts and stitching them together to form your false argument).
You also ignore questions put to you while demanding that I answer yours. I did all you asked to show my honesty in this matter but you reneged on your responses.
I can present (and have presented) many of your fallacies and answered every question you asked but you are and have been evasive and repititious of your false beliefs on the basis that you cannot answer nor can you put together a sequential set of events concerning your idea that Jesus was a Spirit in a Spiritual Body in Heaven before coming as Man and through being a Spirit in a Spiritual Body in a Flesh Body to being in a Spirit in a Spiritual Body in another Spiritual Body.
You ask me for my proof of a Spirit not having a body, and indeed, the proof is by your own presentations or rather 'Lack of presentation' of evidence.
If attempts at presentations by the main protagonist of a false theory cannot present even basic plausible evidence then it can be assumed that none exists.
Therefore I do not have to prove my case. It is not for me to prove my case because the very word 'Spirit' means 'Bodiless' and 'Incorporeal' and 'Not consisting of Material matter'. If you disagree with this definition of 'Spirit' then it is for You to prove otherwise.
My case is proven by the definition that is given in every credible dictionary ever written.
Can you prove otherwise?
Mikeboll.
Kerwin,
Sorry but, I have never read a more muddled presentation that what you just posted (Mar. 29 2012) – save for the compilation of Mikeboll's ideas which are so far beyond any kind of credible theory as to be not worth mentioning!
How do you say that it is proof that their are material bodies in the Spirit realm from the point of Paul saying he did not know whether he was in a body or not? Even Paul himself (who I presume was speaking of himself) said he did not know.
Every other presentations of 'a person being in Heaven' states that they were 'In the Spirit'.
Kerwin, What is the definition of 'Spirit'?
Kerwin, What is the definition of 'Body'?Is a 'Spirit' also a 'Body'?
Is a 'Body' also a 'Spirit'?If you say 'yes' to either or both of the last two questions then you change the whole of the God's natural laws by yourself.
You can then say that 'Water is dry', 'Rain is Earth', 'The planets are people', 'the world is flat', 'Humans are Bats'… Anything, in fact, can be anything else as we 'Personally' want it to be. What is earth and soil to one person, is Sky and Space to another because 'a common definitions' of a thing mean nothing.
Even certain others in this forum didn't go that far – they just ignored presenting definitions when asked to for fear of exposing themselves.
Quote (toby @ Mar. 30 2012,03:32) Kerwin, Sorry but, I have never read a more muddled presentation that what you just posted (Mar. 29 2012) – save for the compilation of Mikeboll's ideas which are so far beyond any kind of credible theory as to be not worth mentioning!
How do you say that it is proof that their are material bodies in the Spirit realm from the point of Paul saying he did not know whether he was in a body or not? Even Paul himself (who I presume was speaking of himself) said he did not know.
Every other presentations of 'a person being in Heaven' states that they were 'In the Spirit'.
Kerwin, What is the definition of 'Spirit'?
Kerwin, What is the definition of 'Body'?Is a 'Spirit' also a 'Body'?
Is a 'Body' also a 'Spirit'?If you say 'yes' to either or both of the last two questions then you change the whole of the God's natural laws by yourself.
You can then say that 'Water is dry', 'Rain is Earth', 'The planets are people', 'the world is flat', 'Humans are Bats'… Anything, in fact, can be anything else as we 'Personally' want it to be. What is earth and soil to one person, is Sky and Space to another because 'a common definitions' of a thing mean nothing.
Even certain others in this forum didn't go that far – they just ignored presenting definitions when asked to for fear of exposing themselves.
Toby,The inference of Paul's words are that a person can enter the Third Heaven either in their body or out; since he would know if that was not the case.
The Garden of Eden, and the tree of life therein, is in heaven and it is material.
Revelation 2:7
King James Version (KJV)7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
A soul has form. That form is called the body of that soul. That body is composed of spirit. It is naked. That is not resurrection.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,04:27) Hi KW,
BODY OF SOUL
What will you come up with next?
Nick,I did not come up with it. It is a sound and valid definition from an English dictionary. Some here have used it to describe the hypothetical spirit body.
I merely point out that resurrection into such a body is no resurrection as a soul naked of its house already has such a body.
Hi KW,
Yes some prefer to rely on dictionaries.
But how will we learn to speak in scriptural terms if we do?Quote (toby @ Mar. 29 2012,15:23) My case is proven by the definition that is given in every credible dictionary ever written.
So because mere men who have never been to heaven, have never seen a spirit being, and who most likely have never been filled with Holy Spirit or given revelation by Jesus and God Himself are your source?
Paul was filled with Holy Spirit and given truth from Jesus and from God directly.
And Paul answers the question in 1 Cor 15 with, Spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have.
Apparently, I and about 30 others here who have visited my “Bodies” thread understand this teaching differently than you and Kerwin do.
It's all good. I just thought that after making such a fuss about this one little topic, you would actually have a scripture or two that supports your understanding. Apparently you don't.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,00:12) The body from heaven is called spiritual while the body from this world is unspiritual.
So Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit without limit, performed many miracles and saved many people from within his UNSPRIRTUAL body?The most spiritual human being to ever walk the earth did so in an UNSPIRITUAL body? Doesn't your understanding imply then that Jesus was led by the sinful flesh and not the spirit?
Kerwin, I believe that the earthly body is of flesh, and the spiritual body is of spirit.
We apparently disagree, and that's fine.
peace,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,04:36) Hi KW,
Yes some prefer to rely on dictionaries.
But how will we learn to speak in scriptural terms if we do?
Nick,The purpose of a dictionary is to inform you of the idea or ideas associated with a word. It is helpful to aid understanding a language. As Paul writes it is better to read a few words that are understood than a multitude of those which are not.
Sometimes a dictionarie(s) do not have the idea expressed by a word used in Scripture.
Hi KW,
Having been helped by a dictionary would it not be better to stay within the language of scripture?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,07:53) Hi KW,
Having been helped by a dictionary would it not be better to stay within the language of scripture?
Nick,That language is Ancient Greek and I am dependent on experts for understanding. The dictionary serves the same purpose in understanding English. Both a dictionary and an expert are tools but the Spirit of God is necessary to use them correctly and test their spirits.
The bottom line is that a spirit(soul) with a spirit body is naked of its house and not one of the resurrected. It is the teaching of the Sadducees dressed up as the teaching of God; just as Satan appears as an Angel of Light.
Mike and all.
A quote from 'gotQuestion.com' website regarding the Spiritual Body:
“….In his first letter to the church in Corinth, Paul discusses the great differences between our earthly bodies and our resurrected bodies (see 1 Corinthians 15:35-54). Contrasting our earthly bodies with the splendor of our heavenly (resurrected) bodies, Paul says, “The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body” (vv. 42-44, emphasis added). In short, our resurrected bodies are spiritual, imperishable, and raised in glory and power.
Through the first Adam, we received our natural bodies, perfectly suited to an earthly environment. However, they became perishable as a consequence of the Fall. Due to disobedience, mankind became mortal. Aging, deterioration and eventual death now affect all of us. From dust we came, and to dust shall we return (Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Our resurrection bodies, on the other hand, will be “raised imperishable.” They will never experience sickness, decay, deterioration, or death. And “when the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable… then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’” (1 Corinthians 15:54).
As a result of the Fall, we are “sown in dishonor.” We were originally made perfect and in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), but sin has brought dishonor. Yet believers have the promise that our imperfect and dishonored bodies will one day be raised in glory. Freed from the restrictions imposed by sin, our resurrected bodies will be honorable and perfectly suited for pleasing and praising our Creator throughout eternity.
Our current bodies are also characterized by weakness and debility. Our earthly “temples” are undeniably fragile and susceptible to the plethora of diseases that ravage mankind. We are also weakened by sin and temptation. One day, though, our bodies will be raised in power and glory, and we will no longer be subject to the flaws and fragility that pervade life today.
Lastly, our resurrected body will be a spiritual one. Our natural bodies are suited for living in this world, but this is the only realm in which we can live. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50). After the resurrection we will have a “spiritual body,” perfectly suited for living in **heaven. This does not mean that we will be only spirits—spirits do not have bodies*—but that our resurrected bodies will not need physical sustenance or depend on natural means of supporting life.
We get a glimpse of what our resurrection bodies will be like when we recall Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. He still had visible wounds, and His disciples could physically touch Him, yet He was able to travel effortlessly and appear and disappear at will. He could go through walls and doors yet could also eat and drink and sit and talk. Scripture informs us that our “lowly bodies” will be just “like His glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). Indeed, the physical limitations imposed by sin that hindered our ability to fully serve Him on earth will be forever gone, freeing us to praise and serve and glorify Him for eternity”.
(*emphasis mine: Toby)
(**The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN which the Spiritual Person will INHERIT)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2012,09:51) Quote (toby @ Mar. 29 2012,15:23) My case is proven by the definition that is given in every credible dictionary ever written.
So because mere men who have never been to heaven, have never seen a spirit being, and who most likely have never been filled with Holy Spirit or given revelation by Jesus and God Himself are your source?Paul was filled with Holy Spirit and given truth from Jesus and from God directly.
And Paul answers the question in 1 Cor 15 with, Spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have.
Apparently, I and about 30 others here who have visited my “Bodies” thread understand this teaching differently than you and Kerwin do.
It's all good. I just thought that after making such a fuss about this one little topic, you would actually have a scripture or two that supports your understanding. Apparently you don't.
peace,
mike
Hi Mikeboll,You said to Nick:
Quote Every word you just wrote is in a dictionary, Nick. That is quite an odd thing to say after what you said to me!
Anyway, because you openly cannot prove your case in any way, shape or form, even after all your attempts at changing Scriptures (A list can be provided again if you need reminding), you now choose to discredit every credible dictionary ever written in the history of man.
Why, then, nothing that we say or write has any unified meaning. Everything is as what each one of us desires it to mean: as the Queen in Alice of Winderland says, 'Words mean what I mean then to mean'.
So that is it then – that is your grand escape plan – throw away the book of common definitions and unified meanings of words and phrases.
Oh, by the way, you still haven't explained how Jesus is in a Spiritual Body like those of Heaven have while he is in Heaven and then in a Body of Flesh on Earth in that same Spiritual Body.
How did Jesus die then if he was in a Spiritual Body?
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