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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2012,03:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,05:03) Hi GB,
You mean a body without a spirit is dead?
[Jas]
Nick……….That is true a body without a Spirit (IN) it is DEAD. The resurrection is a Body and Spirit added to it again . But is is not a resurected Spirit becasue a Spirit does not Die, it is the Body that must be resurected in order for a person to become a “Living Soul” Again, after he or she dies.Just as it say , that we attain to the “RESURRECTION” that will witness the REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES”. A Spirit is not REDEEMED because it cannot die, but the BODY needs to be REDEEMED in order for the Spirit to reenter it and then the man or Women will become a “LIVING SOUL” again. The resurected body will be given of the tree of life and live with spirit added back into it for ever. Just as Jesus now Does with his resurrected body.
peace and love ………………………………….gene
Hi GB,
The spirit of a man leaves him at death.[eccl 12.7]
Only those who ALSO have the Spirit of Christ remain ALIVE to God.Hi Nick,
Anyone who is led by the Spirit is a Son of God, and that is what is meant by putting off the old man and putting on the new man. However, the flesh body is still carnal until it is changed by the Holy Spirit at the resurrection, at the last trumpet, as Paul states. The 'body' is not Spiritual until the resurrection even though the person may be Spirit-led in the carnal body before hand. They are still subject to falling away back into a carnal nature.See, Nick, the 'Sons of God' in the carnal natural body – will still die and then be raised up again (or be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet if not dead at that time).
When the body is made Spiritual, that cannot happen. The carnal is no more; sin is no more; death is no more; the body lives forever; the Spirit IS forever; therefore the person is forever.
Yes Toby,
It is new imperishable and different
Like unto the angels at least in some ways-asexual.
mt 22.30
lk 20.36Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2012,04:08) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2012,15:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,06:33) HI,
It is also true that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor 15]
Nick,There is a realm of flesh and a realm of Spirit. Those who live spiritual lives live in the realm of Spirit; even when their body is subject to death.
Romans 8:9
New International Version (NIV)9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
For those that live in the realm of Spirit will receive life in their mortal bodies.
Romans 8:10
New International Version (NIV)10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Hi KW,
How does that affect flesh being unable to inherit the kingdom?
Nick,The NIV interprets as well as translates. They interpret 'in the flesh” as the realm of flesh and “in the Spirit” as the realm of Spirit. Here is the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.The kingdom of God is the reign of God and those that live by the Spirit are under the reign of God; while those that live by the flesh are not.
1 Corinthians 6:9
King James Version (KJV)9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10
King James Version (KJV)10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21
King James Version (KJV)21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
King James Version (KJV)5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
What body is dead because of sin?
What mortal body is quickened?
Is a quickened mortal body still mortal?
Those that are “in the flesh” will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 22 2012,23:00) Kerwin……….Go and read the valley of dry bones and see what is raised up , and it say there that that was the “WHOLE” house of Israel. No scripture shows a RESURRECTION With out a BODY> Kerwin now notice every word written here in Eze 37:3……> ” and he said unto me, Son of Man, (now notice Kerwin carefully) can these “BONES LIVE”? And I answered , O LORD GOD, thou knowest.
Eza 37:5…..> thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold , (I) will cause breath to enter into you , and you shall live; and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up “FLESH” upon you, and cover your with “SKIN” and put breath (IN YOU) , and you shall LIVE: and you shall know that I am the LORD.
Kerwin read it all, and this is what the resurected Bodies are and it is just like when God created Adam and from the dust and Breathed into his Spirit into them and again they become LIVING SOULS. There is no difference in a resurected Body and the Bodies we now have “EXCEPT” God will allow us to eat of the tree of life and never again die. Even as Adam and Eve could have , but GOD prevented them from getting to the tree (that which produces from self) of Life , He will now after the resurrection grant us to eat (take to ourselves) from it and we shall live for ever in our resurected physical “BODIES” . So you see Kerwin it is not a different body it is what is sustaining it, that makes the difference. It (our bodies ) is sown a Natural BODY, IT (OUR BODY) is raised a Life giving Spiritually Sustained BODY. But it is all still OUR Original BODIES.
Even as you bring out about where it say it is sown as a seed and comes out different one, it is not different it is the same type of body where it originally came from the original seed that comes out of the ground becasue it is an extension or rebirth if you will of that original seed not a different seed then what was planted.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Gene,To progress in this discussion it is necessary for you to read:
1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.After you read it then explain why you believe “body that shall be” is the body that is planted?
We can look at the prophecy of the valley of dry bones but since it is prophecy we should be aware it can be symbolic.
Kerwin, please pay attention.
You asked:
Quote What body is dead because of sin? The (living) carnal body.
Quote What mortal body is quickened? The dead and buried body.
Quote Is a quickened mortal body still mortal? Not if it is quickened directly by the Holy Spirit. When Jesus, as unresurrected man, raised a person from the dead, they still later died. When The disciples raised the dead, they still later died. When the Elijah raised the dead the widows son, he still later died. All of these had exactly the same sinful carnal body raised up – not changed in any way at all. Those raised up directly by holy Spirit… that are the elect in the first resurrection, will be raised forever, as will those chosen from the second resurrection. These will be changed by having their mortal bodies put on immortality.
Quote Those that are “in the flesh” will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Scriptures do not say that. 'Flesh and Blood' means 'Sinful persons', it is a Jewish way of speaking. Moreover it says inherit not enter.
Hi KW,
Mortal bodies will be quickened if they are alive at the Master's return.Is this your idea?
“Those that are “in the flesh” will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.”Is it written?
Can anyone here understand this: 'Those who are of a sinful nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God'. Why can no one think straight in this forum? Please check it out. Check out what is meant by 'Flesh and Blood' in Jewish Tradition – not today's language. How is it people understand 'Son of Man' and 'Begotten' and 'First born Son' and 'Tithing', and the miriad other Jewish traditions, but cannot understand 'Flesh and Blood' meaning 'Sinful person'? Because people don't want to?
Kerwin………..It is the Same thing that “died” that is quicken (brought back to Life) A Seed is not changed into a different seed it is Quickened back to life from the Life which is still in it's Body (the sees) This is also true with thoses who have th Sprit of Life (IN) them. Now if the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead Be (IN) you (your body) It (the Spirit ) shall Now notice this , “QUICKEN YOUR “MORTAL” (DEAD) “BODY”.
Kerwin you have totally ignored what i posted, have you read that and if so then what do you think it say and means., Remember it was GOD speaking there Not Paul. So you may have what Paul was saying wrong , Because Paul also said that we will attain to the RESURRECTION “
that will “Witness” the redemption of our BODIES Why is there a “REDEMPTION of OUR BODIES” if they are destoryed and not to be redeemed and are not needed any longer? Jesus was resurected with HIS BODY fro the GRAVE. I believe that same thing applies to us also.
Also Kerwin you or no one here has produced ONE RESURRECTION that did NOT INCLUDE a PHYSICAL BODY. I know of No scripture that shows that do you?
Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………………………..gene
Hi Nick.
Renewed, not New.
The old body is renewed.
If the body was new, then the Holy Spirit would have had to fake the holes in Jesus' hands, feet and side.Kerwin, No..
While it is true that those who do not become Spiritual will not be part of God's kingdom, your words leave open the idea that mankind will not have flesh bodies.The verse says… 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'. Paul goes to great lengths to describe the Spiritual Body as the Carnal (or Natural) Body that is renewed by the Holy Spirit when it is raised up.
If you are implying that the renewed flesh Body is not the Spiritual body, then you will need to explain what happened to Jesus' 'Flesh and Bone Body' at his ascension?
Hi Toby,
I do not think Jesus still wears his perishable natural body.
We follow himThe NEW is put OVER the OLD 1 cor 15
Hi Toby,
There is another meaning of flesh and blood-HUMANITY
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heavenQuote (toby @ Mar. 23 2012,06:44) Kerwin, please pay attention. You asked:
Quote What body is dead because of sin? The (living) carnal body.
Quote What mortal body is quickened? The dead and buried body.
Quote Is a quickened mortal body still mortal? Not if it is quickened directly by the Holy Spirit. When Jesus, as unresurrected man, raised a person from the dead, they still later died. When The disciples raised the dead, they still later died. When the Elijah raised the dead the widows son, he still later died. All of these had exactly the same sinful carnal body raised up – not changed in any way at all. Those raised up directly by holy Spirit… that are the elect in the first resurrection, will be raised forever, as will those chosen from the second resurrection. These will be changed by having their mortal bodies put on immortality.
Quote Those that are “in the flesh” will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Scriptures do not say that. 'Flesh and Blood' means 'Sinful persons', it is a Jewish way of speaking. Moreover it says inherit not enter.
Toby,I quoted the words “in the flesh” from the passage of Scripture I quoted. The context makes it clear that it was speaking of those that lived by the flesh. I then quoted every other scripture that uses the words “inherit the kingdom”. All of the speak of those that live according to the ways of the flesh not inheriting the kingdom.
It is Scriptural support that “flesh” is sinful man just as you state the Jews taught.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2012,12:23) Hi Toby,
I do not think Jesus still wears his perishable natural body.
We follow himThe NEW is put OVER the OLD 1 cor 15
Hi Nick,
Where does it say in my post that I think what you just said?Was the body of Jesus when he was resurrected a Flesh and Bone body, just as he died in – but is now Spiritual. Or else what happened to the carnal body.
'To Put on' does not mean 'to layer over', it means 'to Change to' … Corruption must put on Incorruption … 'the Corrupted body must be changed to an Incorrupted body.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 23 2012,06:59) Kerwin………..It is the Same thing that “died” that is quicken (brought back to Life) A Seed is not changed into a different seed it is Quickened back to life from the Life which is still in it's Body (the sees) This is also true with thoses who have th Sprit of Life (IN) them. Now if the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead Be (IN) you (your body) It (the Spirit ) shall Now notice this , “QUICKEN YOUR “MORTAL” (DEAD) “BODY”. Kerwin you have totally ignored what i posted, have you read that and if so then what do you think it say and means., Remember it was GOD speaking there Not Paul. So you may have what Paul was saying wrong , Because Paul also said that we will attain to the RESURRECTION “
that will “Witness” the redemption of our BODIES Why is there a “REDEMPTION of OUR BODIES” if they are destoryed and not to be redeemed and are not needed any longer? Jesus was resurected with HIS BODY fro the GRAVE. I believe that same thing applies to us also.
Also Kerwin you or no one here has produced ONE RESURRECTION that did NOT INCLUDE a PHYSICAL BODY. I know of No scripture that shows that do you?
Peace and love to you and yours brother………………………………………………..gene
Gene,You are arguing with the choir over the use of words. Slow down and consider what you have wrote and what I wrote. The difference seems to be the words we use.
I had one body as a child and another as an adult even though they are the same body.
In the same way the body that is planted is one body while the body that rises is another even they are the same body.
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