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Hi Toby,
You said
“where there exactly 400 disciples who saw Jesus when he was raised up?”
Over 500
1cor 15.6Hi Toby
You say
“The new changed flesh body now made Spiritual”The new body is put ON the old.
1cor 15.53Quote (toby @ Mar. 20 2012,20:50) Hi all, I believe that the 144,000 is symbolic for 'a great number of Saints – 12 x 1200 symbolically'
Does any ever wonder why there are so many 40, 400, 4000 and 40,000's written in Scriptures (who counted them so exactly?)
It seems obvious to me that '40xxx' stands for 'a large number':
– was Noah in the Ark exactly 40 days?
– was Jesus in the Wilderness exactly 40 days?
– where there exactly 400 disciples who saw Jesus when he was raised up?
– was it exactly 40 days before he ascended to Heaven?
– did he feed exactly 40,000?I don't want to turn this thread into a 'numbers' thread so I would just say that the exact number of the elect is irrelevant – it should just be satisfactory to us to know that there will be 'a great number' and that that great number will be those who Truly sacrificed their life to Christ by the Spirit of God and were exemplary in the faith and worthy citizens of the kingdom of God.
The topic title asks about the Spiritual Body: Scriptures says that the natural must put on the Spiritual – the corruptible must put on Incurruptible – the mortal must put on immortality.
Again, this is quite clear that all who are raised to everlasting life (whether the elect or those of Paradise) will be in immortal bodies.
'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God': here, 'Flesh and blood' does not mean 'the Body' because the word used is 'Inherit' – this requires wisdom and a freed mind.
I mean: how many have read that verse thinking 'A body cannot go into Heaven' (I did – at first reading!) but it does not say that, does it?
Understanding Jewish traditions gives the answer: 'Flesh and Blood' used in context meant 'A Sinful Person' as opposed to 'A Spiritual Person'. Both are 'Flesh and Blood bodied persons' but the former is as of Adam (sinful and corrupted) and the latter is as of Christ (Sinless and uncorrupted).
Only such a Spiritual person can 'Inherit' (gain as a possession) the Sinless and incorruptible kingdom.Then now, the term 'Spiritual Body' can be seen exactly as Paul described it and not as many who, without forethought (not malice but ignorance in the belief in the mainstream views), believe it to mean 'The Body of a Spirit'.
Kerwin and I both posted threads on this topic. No one has so far responded to mine which sets out a complete profile of how the belief in 'the Spirit Body' would make for an impossible scenario regarding the coming, the living, the dying, the resurrection – and the ascension of Christ Jesus.
Jesus would end up with TWO Spiritual Bodies inside each other!
(Basically, if Jesus was a Spirit with a Spiritual Body then that Spiritual Body would either have to have been removed before he became man or he could not have died on the Cross.
If his Spiritual Body was removed then what Body was his Spirit in while the Spiritual Body was removed?
When his Spirit went back to God was it in a Spiritual Body?
If yes, then when it was put back into the flesh body and Scriptures it was the Flesh that was made INCORRUPT (Became Immortal and sinless) then:
The Spirit of Jesus is in
The Spiritual Body which is in
The new changed flesh body now made SpiritualAny one care to challenge this line of reasoning concerning the fallacy of the 'Spirit in a Spiritual Body as regards Spirits (Angels) of Heaven'
Hi Toby
By Spiritual body do you mean HEAVENLY body?
Scriptural terms avoid confusion.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2012,00:14) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2012,15:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2012,11:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,03:19) Hi KW,
You really believe Jesus Christ is still clad in his ORIGINAL perishable cut and damaged flesh body??
You hope to inherit the kingdom in what you are wearing now?
Nick,I believe that the patern set forth in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 is true and thus I believe that Jesus' flesh and bone body, and the wounds it bore, is both imperishable and from heaven.
Hi KW,
Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead as was Jonah
but he was yet to be raised into the air as we will be.
Nick,I know of two types of bodies the soul inhabits. One is from earth and the other is from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15 teaches us we are buried in the body from Earth and resurrected in the body from heaven. Jesus was buried in his body from earth and resurrected in his body from heaven. He was in the later body when he ascended in the air to heaven.
Though his body may have looked like his natural body; it is not.
Hi KW,
So when Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas they were not the real ones??Did you see him when he rose into the clouds?
Nick,Jesus bore those wounds in his body because it suited God's purpose, just as it suited God's purpose that on the road to Emmaus that the two disciples did not recognize him.
Remember that Thomas stated “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe”, John 20:25. God foreknew and gave him the sign he asked for.
Scripture declares that the resurrected body is the heavenly body and that Jesus is an example of the resurrection. That body will be as God chooses.
Kerwin………..Exactly as Nick Said if Jesus original body was not raised then it would all be sham and complete con job. He went to great links to show it was his body that was raised from the grave and was alive for evermore. Not one scripture says Jesus body was transformed into a “Spirit Body”. The whole message is about attaining to the Resurrection of our Bodies from the grave and living forever in the Kingdom of GOD. Without a resurrection of your Body your soul will never again exist. The resurrections all about Bodies not Spirits becasue Spirits do not die . But a Soul without a BODY IS DEAD>
Peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………………………………gene
Gene,
I am convinced the following words are true.
1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.As they are true the body that Jesus came to have was not the body that was sown. While the body that was sown was mortal; the body that was raised is immortal. While the body that was sown was from this world; the body that is raised is from heaven. Jesus stated that his body that rose from his tomb is flesh and bone and I believe him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2012,14:20) Hi KW,
So it was not the same body he died in?
God does not do con jobs.
Nick,read my Mar. 22 2012,01:29 post to Gene.
I do not understand why you believe God ran a con job.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,01:42) Hi KW,
So being raised to fulfill Jonah's prophecy is being taken up into the clouds for you?
Nick,It sounds like you are applying the pattern in 1 Thessalonians 4 to Jesus’ words in Matthew 12:40. It is a good attempt though it falls short as Thessalonians makes it clear Jesus the Lord is not among those resurrected dead that are snatched in the air.
Matthew 12:40
King James Version (KJV)40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1 Thessalonians 4
King James Version (KJV)16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.I do find it interesting that the dead do not rise up in the air on being resurrected but are only caught up when the bodies of the living change; and then both are caught up together.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,03:49) Hi KW,
Indeed Jesus was taken up.
We know flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
Nick,It is written that those who live by the flesh sin while those that live by Spirit do right.
It is true that those who live by the flesh will not inherit the kingdom.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,06:33) HI,
It is also true that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor 15]
Nick,There is a realm of flesh and a realm of Spirit. Those who live spiritual lives live in the realm of Spirit; even when their body is subject to death.
Romans 8:9
New International Version (NIV)9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
For those that live in the realm of Spirit will receive life in their mortal bodies.
Romans 8:10
New International Version (NIV)10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,05:03) Hi GB,
You mean a body without a spirit is dead?
[Jas]
Nick……….That is true a body without a Spirit (IN) it is DEAD. The resurrection is a Body and Spirit added to it again . But is is not a resurected Spirit becasue a Spirit does not Die, it is the Body that must be resurected in order for a person to become a “Living Soul” Again, after he or she dies.Just as it say , that we attain to the “RESURRECTION” that will witness the REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES”. A Spirit is not REDEEMED because it cannot die, but the BODY needs to be REDEEMED in order for the Spirit to reenter it and then the man or Women will become a “LIVING SOUL” again. The resurected body will be given of the tree of life and live with spirit added back into it for ever. Just as Jesus now Does with his resurrected body.
peace and love ………………………………….gene
Kerwin……….Go and read the valley of dry bones and see what is raised up , and it say there that that was the “WHOLE” house of Israel. No scripture shows a RESURRECTION With out a BODY> Kerwin now notice every word written here in Eze 37:3……>
” and he said unto me, Son of Man, (now notice Kerwin carefully) can these “BONES LIVE”? And I answered , O LORD GOD, thou knowest.
Eza 37:5…..> thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold , (I) will cause breath to enter into you , and you shall live; and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up “FLESH” upon you, and cover your with “SKIN” and put breath (IN YOU) , and you shall LIVE: and you shall know that I am the LORD.
Kerwin read it all, and this is what the resurected Bodies are and it is just like when God created Adam and from the dust and Breathed into his Spirit into them and again they become LIVING SOULS. There is no difference in a resurected Body and the Bodies we now have “EXCEPT” God will allow us to eat of the tree of life and never again die. Even as Adam and Eve could have , but GOD prevented them from getting to the tree (that which produces from self) of Life , He will now after the resurrection grant us to eat (take to ourselves) from it and we shall live for ever in our resurected physical “BODIES” . So you see Kerwin it is not a different body it is what is sustaining it, that makes the difference. It (our bodies ) is sown a Natural BODY, IT (OUR BODY) is raised a Life giving Spiritually Sustained BODY. But it is all still OUR Original BODIES.
Even as you bring out about where it say it is sown as a seed and comes out different one, it is not different it is the same type of body where it originally came from the original seed that comes out of the ground becasue it is an extension or rebirth if you will of that original seed not a different seed then what was planted.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2012,15:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2012,06:33) HI,
It is also true that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom[1Cor 15]
Nick,There is a realm of flesh and a realm of Spirit. Those who live spiritual lives live in the realm of Spirit; even when their body is subject to death.
Romans 8:9
New International Version (NIV)9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
For those that live in the realm of Spirit will receive life in their mortal bodies.
Romans 8:10
New International Version (NIV)10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Hi KW,
How does that affect flesh being unable to inherit the kingdom?
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