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Quote (Stu @ Mar. 17 2009,21:09) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2009,22:27) Hi Stu. I believe the motive for all 3 was the Kingdom of God. All 3 were crucified and persecuted, so I would hardly think that they were in it for worldly comforts, but for a greater purpose beyond this life and age.
Yes, delusion can do strange things to people.Stuart
Yes that is right. Imagine not believing in a creator. It all came from nothing, or from something that wasn't living in any sense of the word.Ha ha!
Even worse, people choose to believe the delusion that there is no God because they prefer it that way. Preference doesn't change truth/reality one iota.
Wake up Stu, delusion is only comforting for a period of time. Reality kicks in at some point.
e.g., falling can be a nice feeling, but if you are not wearing a parachute, reality will hit you quite hard when the ground comes up from under you.
Enjoy the delusion while you can. It won't last forever.
Quote (t8 @ April 02 2009,15:46) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 17 2009,21:09) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2009,22:27) Hi Stu. I believe the motive for all 3 was the Kingdom of God. All 3 were crucified and persecuted, so I would hardly think that they were in it for worldly comforts, but for a greater purpose beyond this life and age.
Yes, delusion can do strange things to people.Stuart
Yes that is right. Imagine not believing in a creator. It all came from nothing, or from something that wasn't living in any sense of the word.Ha ha!
Even worse, people choose to believe the delusion that there is no God because they prefer it that way. Preference doesn't change truth/reality one iota.
Wake up Stu, delusion is only comforting for a period of time. Reality kicks in at some point.
e.g., falling can be a nice feeling, but if you are not wearing a parachute, reality will hit you quite hard when the ground comes up from under you.
Enjoy the delusion while you can. It won't last forever.
Delusion is having unshakable belief in things that cannot be shown to be true, like alien abductions, spirit channeling, people walking again after they have been judicially executed, spontaneous human parthenogenesis, water divining and tarot cards.While all are equally absurd, you seem to believe in at least one of these, and not the others. Why do you discriminate when you have no evidence?
Stuart
But Stu, you believe in the everything came from nothing delusion, or the everything has existed forever in varying (non-living/aware) forms delusion.
You should fix up your own backyard before trying to help out others, don't you think?
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2009,00:29) But Stu, you believe in the everything came from nothing delusion, or the everything has existed forever in varying (non-living/aware) forms delusion.
You should fix up your own backyard before trying to help out others, don't you think?
I do believe that everything 'came from nothing', and while every piece of evidence we have points to that, I am not so prideful as to claim that strong contrary evidence would not change my mind. There are some things we just don't know.Is there anything you don't know, t8? You have access to an omniscient being who grants favours. How did the baryons get separated asymmetrically from the anti-baryons? Will you ask for us?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 05 2009,06:41) Quote (t8 @ April 05 2009,00:29) But Stu, you believe in the everything came from nothing delusion, or the everything has existed forever in varying (non-living/aware) forms delusion.
You should fix up your own backyard before trying to help out others, don't you think?
I do believe that everything 'came from nothing', and while every piece of evidence we have points to that, I am not so prideful as to claim that strong contrary evidence would not change my mind. There are some things we just don't know.Is there anything you don't know, t8? You have access to an omniscient being who grants favours. How did the baryons get separated asymmetrically from the anti-baryons? Will you ask for us?
Stuart
Greetings Stu…….It is obvious to me that your belief system is unshakable and equally as unyielding,with respect to the existance of God….perhaps you might indulge us,here at HN with the irrefutable truth you hold that convinces you that you are right and we are wrong…thanks TJPS… As nick would say “This is Topical”
Quote (Stu @ April 05 2009,06:41) I do believe that everything 'came from nothing', and while every piece of evidence we have points to that, I am not so prideful as to claim that strong contrary evidence would not change my mind. There are some things we just don't know.
In the meantime, shoot it down as ridiculous and say it is a myth, until otherwise proven.So everything came from nothing. Yay we have an answer and something to work with. Finally a decision and not just a let's attack what I don't like attitude.
So in one corner we have the Everything came from nothing believers and in the other we have the Everything came from a creator believers.
Now think for a moment Stu. If I said to you that you are a bunch of morons for believing in the impossible “no cause theory” which states that there was nothing and walla something was produced and this something became everything, then I wonder if you would you be offended?
I am not calling you a moron, but just kind of showing you a mirror, regarding the way you have acted toward the Believers in a Creator group.
Anyway, it will be great to see you defend your belief and to show us how it is science and not a religion or faith of some kind.
Hope you can stick around to dazzle us with the proof if you think it is not a faith or belief of some kind.
t8
Stuu: I do believe that everything 'came from nothing', and while every piece of evidence we have points to that, I am not so prideful as to claim that strong contrary evidence would not change my mind. There are some things we just don't know.
Quote In the meantime, shoot it down as ridiculous and say it is a myth, until otherwise proven.
Shoot what down?Quote So everything came from nothing. Yay we have an answer and something to work with. Finally a decision and not just a let's attack what I don't like attitude.
I attack what is idiotic to believe not what I don’t like. I would like to think the Black Caps was the dominant side in test cricket, but it would be idiotic to believe, because there is no evidence that they are.I did post some months ago that I went along with Stephen Hawking’s evidence-based model of matter being gravitational energy borrowed from the expansion of space-time. Were you not paying attention?
Quote So in one corner we have the Everything came from nothing believers and in the other we have the Everything came from a creator believers.
I think of it as one corner with those who make models based on evidence, provisional on the appearance of further evidence as will happen for example with the Large Hadron Collider, and in the other corner those who make all their conclusions based on a wild interpretation of a book of religious mythology written by ancient goat herders.Quote Now think for a moment Stu. If I said to you that you are a bunch of morons for believing in the impossible “no cause theory” which states that there was nothing and walla something was produced and this something became everything, then I wonder if you would you be offended?
Not really, because you are providing no evidence for your claim that “no cause” is impossible, so I am not a moron.Quote I am not calling you a moron, but just kind of showing you a mirror, regarding the way you have acted toward the Believers in a Creator group.
I have never called anyone a moron. What are you trying to show me? That there is a better way to view cosmology than dispassionately weighing the evidence we have and suspending judgement, making provisional conclusions only about what we can observe?Quote Anyway, it will be great to see you defend your belief and to show us how it is science and not a religion or faith of some kind.
See above.Quote Hope you can stick around to dazzle us with the proof if you think it is not a faith or belief of some kind.
See above.Stuart
Stu……..let me weigh in here , Look no one can cnvience you of GOD , but GOD himself, all the talk in the world could not do that. What you are after is (HARD) Proof and that in it self is not wrong, As i told you before that YOU must get your own proof of the existence of GOD. It is available but , not through anyone Here, When i became convince of GOD'S existence i was the same as you , I heard all kinds of things about a GOD i never personally saw, so I set out to prove His existence , and found Him on a one on one bases.Without any church involvement. If He would not have responded to me they way he did i would have been just like you and dwelt in unbelief, which is not wrong necessarily, You are entitled to have absolute proof, as everyone else is, GOD gave me mine years ago time and time again and still does, as i told you before. I can't make him reveal himself to you and no one here can either , we can ask but that is about it. I respect your convictions and Know in my heart that if or when you get your proof you will accept them. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.God doesn't have to provide any additional proof than that which is clearly there already.
However God is merciful and sometimes does prove himself to people. But we can't force God to do it.
Usually proof is more about what happens when we believe in the living God and we become one with him, more so than a scientific experiment that proves or disproves his existence. After all God works with faith, not sin.Romans 14:23
….. and everything that does not come from faith is sin.But if Stu doesn't want to know about God, he will surely have his wish.
Matthew 7:7
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.It is up to Stu a the end of the day.
God doesn't force us to love him or respect him. He leaves us to do what we want regarding this.
gene
Quote Stu……..let me weigh in here , Look no one can cnvience you of GOD , but GOD himself, all the talk in the world could not do that.
How can something non-existent demonstrate its existence?Quote What you are after is (HARD) Proof and that in it self is not wrong,
No. I have never asked for “hard proof”.Quote As i told you before that YOU must get your own proof of the existence of GOD.
You have a typical christian’s inability to see things from another’s point of view. There is no such thing, so your statement is a nonsense.Quote It is available but , not through anyone Here, When i became convince of GOD'S existence i was the same as you , I heard all kinds of things about a GOD i never personally saw, so I set out to prove His existence , and found Him on a one on one bases.
So if I set out to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (bhna) exists do you doubt that I will have exactly the same success as you with your god? The evidence for each is identical.Quote Without any church involvement. If He would not have responded to me they way he did i would have been just like you and dwelt in unbelief, which is not wrong necessarily,
“He” did not respond to you.Quote You are entitled to have absolute proof, as everyone else is, GOD gave me mine years ago time and time again and still does, as i told you before.
“He” did no such thing.Quote I can't make him reveal himself to you and no one here can either , we can ask but that is about it. I respect your convictions
No you don’t. Your whole fatuous post has been as egocentric a contribution as you would read here. At least t8 mocks what he thinks I believe, even if he is usually wrong.Quote and Know in my heart that if or when you get your proof you will accept them. IMO Them? How many Judeo-christian deities are there?
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
And to you and yours also.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ May 12 2009,16:09) Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.God doesn't have to provide any additional proof than that which is clearly there already.
However God is merciful and sometimes does prove himself to people. But we can't force God to do it.
Usually proof is more about what happens when we believe in the living God and we become one with him, more so than a scientific experiment that proves or disproves his existence. After all God works with faith, not sin.Romans 14:23
….. and everything that does not come from faith is sin.But if Stu doesn't want to know about God, he will surely have his wish.
Matthew 7:7
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.It is up to Stu a the end of the day.
God doesn't force us to love him or respect him. He leaves us to do what we want regarding this.
The mythology of your god forces me to oppose “his” immorality.As “he” does not exist, there is actually nothing to be bothered about.
My assertion is better than your assertion because the evidence does not support your view.
Stuart
Stu……….How can you speak for my proof as real or not. Because you have not been given your real proof does not mean I or anyone else haven't be given any, Maybe GOD choses not to reveal himself to you at this time. Perhaps to see how far you arrogance will take you before he jerks your chain. You judge according to your (LIMITED) understanding. Which is not of faith in GOD and i will give you that because it is evident he hasn't revealed himself to you as yet, thats your right, but what makes you so knowledgeable now, that you can assert others are as ignorant as you, with regards to their own personal Faith and relationship with GOD. I personally could care less if you believe there is a GOD or Not. Thats a problem between Him and you, not us and you. IMO
gene
gene
Quote How can you speak for my proof as real or not. Because you have not been given your real proof does not mean I or anyone else haven't be given any, Maybe GOD choses not to reveal himself to you at this time.
Maybe your ‘proof’ is just a product of the normal functioning of your human brain. There is no corroborating evidence for what you claim, so it is certainly not proof.Quote Perhaps to see how far you arrogance will take you before he jerks your chain.
So your god plays games with people. Is that worthy of worship?Quote You judge according to your (LIMITED) understanding.
Speak for yourself. I think I understand the nature of your god belief better than you do. At the very least I am better able at questioning both our belief systems than you are at questioning yours.Quote Which is not of faith in GOD and i will give you that because it is evident he hasn't revealed himself to you as yet, thats your right, but what makes you so knowledgeable now, that you can assert others are as ignorant as you, with regards to their own personal Faith and relationship with GOD.
You cannot know anything about the supernatural. Tell me one testable act of your god, and what would be true if you were wrong. You won’t be able to, because either you will say something falsifiable or you will fall back on hiding your god where ‘he’ cannot be tested. There is no credibility in either position.Quote I personally could care less if you believe there is a GOD or Not. Thats a problem between Him and you, not us and you. IMO
You don’t seem to even care whether it is reasonable to BELIEVE there is a god or not. You continue to beg the question of the existence of this Imaginary Friend without understanding the factors that may cause you to see a god where none exists.Stuart
Stu…….So you give me two options , One is to say something “Falsifiable” or Fall back on Hiding My GOD where He can not be tested. So no matter which way i go you have already concluded it is false, because it doesn't meat “YOUR” idea of the truth, which i Have been given, right? If you told me you had a bad dream last nigh i could say it not true, where is your proof. Did you take a moving picture of it to give me proof. I have told you before, I have my given proof, I know His reality by personal experience with Him, it not mine or anyone else's fault He has chosen not to reveal himself to You. He might view you as like a real ape for all I know, and Just doesn't want to waste His time with you, i don't know why He has not Shown you His reality of His existence, But i don know those He is dealing with He gives plenty of Proof in their lives, at least He has Mine, and there were witness that saw them happen. I still pray and have them answered all the time. It says have you faith have it unto yourself. Also GOD said He is found by those who Seek Him. Maybe your pride has elevated you to the point that no matter what he did you would not except it or perhaps has already done, but to except it would cause your whole match stick built world to crumble and you just couldn't deal with that.
But we do know it says < That in that day no longer will a man teach his neighbor saying Know the LORD, for they (ALL) shall know of Me from the lest to the greatest. So there you have it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Gene, Stu doesn't believe anything that doesn't register on a scientific instrument. By all rights he shouldn't also believe in 'five'.
Of course logically speaking there are beings and surely some are more powerful than others. So it stands to reason that one must stand above the rest, a supreme being. After all, he must believe in beings and the concept of supremacy. So surely he must recognize a supreme being of some kind, even if he disagrees that he created all things.
But he may even deny that by reason of his bias. That is his problem/disability of course.
gene
Quote Stu…….So you give me two options , One is to say something “Falsifiable” or Fall back on Hiding My GOD where He can not be tested. So no matter which way i go you have already concluded it is false, because it doesn't meat “YOUR” idea of the truth, which i Have been given, right? If you told me you had a bad dream last nigh i could say it not true, where is your proof. Did you take a moving picture of it to give me proof. I have told you before, I have my given proof, I know His reality by personal experience with Him, it not mine or anyone else's fault He has chosen not to reveal himself to You. He might view you as like a real ape for all I know, and Just doesn't want to waste His time with you, i don't know why He has not Shown you His reality of His existence, But i don know those He is dealing with He gives plenty of Proof in their lives, at least He has Mine, and there were witness that saw them happen. I still pray and have them answered all the time. It says have you faith have it unto yourself. Also GOD said He is found by those who Seek Him. Maybe your pride has elevated you to the point that no matter what he did you would not except it or perhaps has already done, but to except it would cause your whole match stick built world to crumble and you just couldn't deal with that.
But we do know it says < That in that day no longer will a man teach his neighbor saying Know the LORD, for they (ALL) shall know of Me from the lest to the greatest. So there you have it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Shame you cannot consider this from any position other than your own. I am just going to tell you that there are no gods and that I have my proof and my word is all you should need to abandon your absurd beliefs. Is that credible to you? You would demand considerably more than that from me were I to try that line on you seriously, yet you expect acceptance of it when you type the religious equivalent. You have made nine claims for you god in this post, and you have not said for even a single one what would be true if you were wrong. Since there is no criterion by which you could be wrong, you have actually said nothing. An economist says that interest rates will drop further. That is testable, you just have to wait and watch the papers to find out if that economist’s predictions are worth listening to. You claim “GOD said He is found by those who Seek Him” but what if you are wrong? There is no way we can tell whether you are just making up whatever comes into your head or not, so you may as well have not said anything.This is a basic point of philosophy. Do you get it?
Stuart
Quote Gene, Stu doesn't believe anything that doesn't register on a scientific instrument. By all rights he shouldn't also believe in 'five'.
Strawman.Quote Of course logically speaking there are beings and surely some are more powerful than others.
Is a mouse or an elephant more powerful?Quote So it stands to reason that one must stand above the rest, a supreme being. After all, he must believe in beings and the concept of supremacy. So surely he must recognize a supreme being of some kind, even if he disagrees that he created all things.
You mistake me for Thomas Aquinas. Richard Dawkins suggests that by the same argument there are people that vary in their smelliness, and that we can only compare stinks by reference to the maximum imaginable stinker, which we should call god.Stuart
Stu……….O I see we play by your biased rules right?. So where is all you proof there is NO GOD then. Are we to take your word for the and some of you biased friends and not consider those who adamantly disagree with you and them. You position yourself as a judge of Proofs that we have, while that is you right , it is also our right to believe in our proofs. What makes you think your right is any more valid then ours and your so-called particle proof anymore valid then ours? WE have our proof rather you accept it or not is irrelevant to US, Like your unaware primate you use as a Avatar . How can we prove anything to Him, he is unable to (recognize) it, so he can't except it , he just does what he knows and that OK with him , so it is with your unbeliefs. Thats fine thats your choice, but we stand on our Proofs rather you accept them or not its irrelevant to US. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (Gene @ May 19 2009,03:22) Stu……….O I see we play by your biased rules right?. So where is all you proof there is NO GOD then. Are we to take your word for the and some of you biased friends and not consider those who adamantly disagree with you and them. You position yourself as a judge of Proofs that we have, while that is you right , it is also our right to believe in our proofs. What makes you think your right is any more valid then ours and your so-called particle proof anymore valid then ours? WE have our proof rather you accept it or not is irrelevant to US, Like your unaware primate you use as a Avatar . How can we prove anything to Him, he is unable to (recognize) it, so he can't except it , he just does what he knows and that OK with him , so it is with your unbeliefs. Thats fine thats your choice, but we stand on our Proofs rather you accept them or not its irrelevant to US. IMO peace and love……………….gene
Thank you for demonstrating my point so well.Stuart
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