Jesus – LORD God – the evidence.

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2012,01:41)

Terricca………A lot of talk but not scriptures to prove it , face it Pierre you have bought into the biggest LIE ever told Mankind and that is that Jesus was not exactly in “ever way” “identical us. without any exceptions Pierre Jesus never preexisted his berth upon this earth, that would go against God/s Work in and through mankind.  It was by man sin came into this world and it is by a man it is atoned for by the 100% pure human man Jesus the Anointed one. All you and the rest who teach a different Jesus are Liars and Antichrist and even more Anti-God also. You people limit the Power and work of God in and through humanity and are all together false teachers. IMO peace and love…………………………………………………..gene

g

the only thing i can say about you is that you are a man that thinks like a man and are flesh ,so no spirit in you

[david]

Is AWHN gone?

[Anonymous]

So far, we have the OT acknoweldging 'Jesus' as YHVH, the Father so doing the same, the Holy Spirit doing the same, Jesus doing the same even in the New Testament, given by prophets, proclaimed by prophets, and so said by Peter, Paul, John and others still…

Now we also have the witness of Thomas, so even 'the doubter' so says of Jesus…

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

[Ed J]

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,13:37)

So far, we have the OT acknoweldging 'Jesus' as YHVH, the Father so doing the same, the Holy Spirit doing the same, Jesus doing the same even in the New Testament, given by prophets, proclaimed by prophets, and so said by Peter, Paul, John and others still… Now we also have the witness of Thomas, so even 'the doubter' so says of Jesus… And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

Hi AWHN,

Thomas recognized YHVH in Jesus! (John 20:28)

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest;
and how can we know the way? (Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and
put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25)

John 10:38: But if I do, though ye believe not me,
believe the works: that ye may know,
and believe, that  the Father is in me, and I in him.

THOMAS THEREFORE BELIEVED THE WORKS! (John 20:29)
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
their trespasses unto them(because of Christ); and hath
committed unto us (HolySpirit)”The Word” of reconciliation.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Reason for edit: Structure

[david]

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,13:37)

So far, we have the OT acknoweldging 'Jesus' as YHVH, the Father so doing the same, the Holy Spirit doing the same, Jesus doing the same even in the New Testament, given by prophets, proclaimed by prophets, and so said by Peter, Paul, John and others still… Now we also have the witness of Thomas, so even 'the doubter' so says of Jesus… And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

Great! Let's discuss this scripture and the use of “god” with relation to jesus. I am busy right now but will come back to this. can we focus on this for a while?

[Lightenup]

Here AWHN,
I have some scriptures that, if the Holy Spirit was a separate person from the Father and the Son, why isn't He listed in these scriptures?
First a quote from Michael Brown…

As Michael L. Brown says in Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus,” p. 53:

Quote

…Is the “Spirit of God” the same as “God”? Yes and no. The Spirit clearly has personality, since the Holy Spirit instructs the people of Israel and can be grieved or angered. Yet the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God-i.e., God's very Spirit, he is both giving himself as well as giving of himself. The key is always this: God touches us, teaches us, interacts with us, and empowers us by his Spirit.

With that understanding it is very easy to understand why the “Holy Spirit” is not mentioned along with the Father in these following verses since references speaking of the person of the Father would assume that the innermost part of the Father to obviously be included in His person. See below and you will find plenty of scriptures that you would think would mention all “three persons” of the trinity but doesn't:

Matt 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Please explain why the Holy Spirit does not know the Father or the Son if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

Matt 24:36
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

John 5:23
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

John 5:26
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

John 6:40
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
NASU

Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

John 6:46
46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

1 John 2:23-24
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

2 John 3
3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

2 John 9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
NASU
Please explain why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here if the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the Godhead.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 30 2012,15:25)

Here AWHN, I have some scriptures that, if the Holy Spirit was a separate person from the Father and the Son, why isn't He listed in these scriptures? … [shortened] Matt 11:27; 24:36 [NASU] John 5:23,26, 6:40,46; 1 John 2:23-24; 2 John 3,9[NASU]

Do you really want me to address these?  First Simply then…

The answer begins with the obvious.  The majority of your texts are cited from John and his Gospel and Epistles, which primarily focus upon Jesus as YHVH God, not the Holy Spirit.

Matthew presents Jesus as King, Mark presents as Servant, Luke presents as Human, John presents as YHVH God.  The Whole of Scripture speaks about Christ Jesus, even as He Himself so says in numerous places [Luke 24:27; John 5:39, etc]

Secondly, none of the previous texts which were cited have been in the least addressed concerning the full Deity of the Holy Spirit and are here being ignored, not considered in addition to these.  This is again, merely picking and choosing which texts to keep, while distancing from the others, thus not presenting the whole picture.

For when we look at such texts the reveal the Three Persons are all “one” in purpose [Genesis 1:1, etc], etc, but not in person, it reveals that each knows the other, even from eternity.  Even as 1 Corinthians 2:10 reveals the Holy Spirit knows all things, and nothing hid from Him [Colossians 2:2-3. of GOD “and” of the Father “and” of Christ, that is three persons, yet this is not addressed], for it is written “In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” Colossians 2:3

Also there are some issues with the NASU [and its roots, but that is for another conversation, as it deals with spiritualists], especially Mattthew 24:36, since the Greek in this instance does NOT read “nor the son”, even as the KJV reveals: “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Place this text in the context of other verses like: “I and [my] Father are one.”, how much then does Christ Jesus know?  Also, in considering that text, or another like it, but not quite, it is a matter of looking at the Greek of the work “know” [Mark 13:32], for it means none shall make known except the Father, for consider how Paul uses the word elsewhere, “I determined not to know anything among you” [1 Corinthians 2:2], etc.  This is as typology reveals, since the Father is to set the time of the wedding.

Texts such as Matthew 11:27, are dealing with just two of the three, since the third is given mention elsewhere.  Thus line upon line, precept upon precept… just because one member is not mentioned in one or a few texts does not suddenly negate Him from the picture.  There are several texts which mention the 12 apostles, but then there are others which mention only 3 or a few more, then do suddenly the others drop out of sight from the picture?  Of course no.

Let us also consider this text which specifically deals with the Holy Spirit:

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

Notice, the Holy Spirit doees not boast Himself, and speak of Himself.  Clearly a Person [Isaiah 40:13], not the Father [Isaiah 48:16].

Also the Holy Spirit has life within Himself, even as the Father and the Son, Acts 17:25, Job 33:4, etc

Who raised Jesus from the Dead?

GOD raised CHRIST JESUS, “The LORD our God [FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT, 3 persons] [is] one [Unity in Purpose] LORD”: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2:12 and Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 and And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 1 Corinthians 6:14 and Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:24 and And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15 and God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33 and Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Hebrews 13:20

So JESUS [GOD the SON] did: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 and No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18

So GOD the FATHER did: Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Ephesians 1:20 and Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4 and Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; ) Galatians 1:1 and And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10

So GOD the HOLY SPIRIT did: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11 and For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

In the latter, it is obvious to deny the Son is to deny the Father, and in so doing it will have been abundantly clear, that one also denied the Holy Spirit.

Continue reading the contexts of those passages of John and you will see the Holy Spirit clearly given.

[Anonymous]

It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3

Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”.

I know Him…

Who therefore is it that does not know Him>

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

[Ed J]

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,19:38)

It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”. I know Him… Who therefore is it that does not know Him> He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Hi AWHN,

Correct! Those having a form of godliness, but denying
the power thereof: from such turn away.  (2 Tim 3:5)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Wakeup]

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,19:38)

It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”. I know Him… Who therefore is it that does not know Him> He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

awhn.

Did Jesus not work on sabath days? Yes he did.
Was the sabath made for men, or men for the sabath?
The sabath was made for men.

If you turn your lights on; on a sabath day;you are breaking the sabath,for there are people working to keep the power going.If you let your dog run to picup the ball on a sabath,you are breaking the sabath.Not even your ox is to work on a sabath.

If you turn the tap on;on a sabath day, or flush the toilet.you are breaking the sabath. For there are people working to keep the water pumps going.

If you turn your aircon on;on a sabath;you are breaking the sabath.
If you ring up on a sabath day;you are also breaking the sabath. Break one law, and you are quilty of all.

You also will be judged by the law.

To me the written law is crucified with Christ.
The law is written in my heart,not in stone.I follow Gods commandments,because of my love for God,not because it is written in stone.

If I need to work on a sabath, to feed the family, I will work,because it is good work.
But not for greed.

The sabath is made for us,we are not slaves of the sabath.
The scribes and pharisees like to judge according to the sabath.We are no scribe nor pharisee. If we sin,we can be forgiven,by his mercy. No man can be saved by just following the law,but by mercy alone.

Judge no man according the sabath day,thats the old covenant;we are under a new covenant,under Christ.
What;did Christ die for nothing? Because we have the law to go by?Are we denying the crucifixion?

Do unto others as you do unto yourself.

Promoting the sabath is not in Gods favour,but the denomination,the clan.

wakeup.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,19:38)

It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”. I know Him… Who therefore is it that does not know Him> He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Awhn……….The Sabbath was given us for a “SIGN”, now i would ask you what is that “SIGN” .  Have you ever wondered why “REST' of cessation from “our works” is tied to the sabbath. Have you ever thought about the purpose behind the Sabbath. The sing of the sabbath was to impart the Idea of us entering to a rest with God and letting him do his work “IN” and “THROUGH” us. Therefore it say “you that believe have entered into that rest”. That rest is not just a HR period but a eternal rest a cessation from OUR WORK and Letting GOD Work “IN” Us. The Sabbath Day is that Sign or example to us a physical sign for a Spiritual principle.. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

[Anonymous]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 01 2012,03:07)

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,19:38) It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”. I know Him… Who therefore is it that does not know Him> He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4 Awhn……….The Sabbath was given us for a “SIGN”, now i would ask you what is that “SIGN” .  Have you ever wondered why “REST' of cessation from “our works” is tied to the sabbath. Have you ever thought about the purpose behind the Sabbath. The sing of the sabbath was to impart the Idea of us entering to a rest with God and letting him do his work “IN” and “THROUGH” us. Therefore it say  “you that believe have entered into that rest”. That rest is not just a HR period but a eternal rest a cessation from OUR WORK and Letting GOD Work “IN” Us. The Sabbath Day  is that Sign or example to us a physical sign for a Spiritual principle.. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

I will be creating an entirely separate thread for the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God.  Even as others do not understand Hebrews 1 here, many simply do not understand Hebrews 3-4 and many other texts, neither the purpose of the 7th day from Creation.

[Ed J]

Hi AWHN,

GREAT!  I hope you will keep your posts small  –  so that we will actually read them.

Also, it would be nice if you would respond to our comments,
you seem to do neither; with only a few exceptions.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Anonymous]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2012,01:26)

Quote (AWHN @ Nov. 30 2012,19:38) It is really simple to determine which is follwoing the True God: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 Here are His commandments, Exodus 20:2-17, therefore which are keeping them, and teach them in their doctrines [Revelation 14:6-12], especially that one about “the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the Lord thy God”. I know Him… Who therefore is it that does not know Him> He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4 awhn. Did Jesus not work on sabath days? Yes he did. Was the sabath made for men, or men for the sabath? The sabath was made for men. If you  turn your lights on;  on a sabath day;you are breaking the sabath,for there are people working to keep the power going.If you let your dog run to picup the ball on a sabath,you are breaking the sabath.Not even your ox is to work on a sabath. If you turn the tap on;on a sabath day, or flush the toilet.you are breaking the sabath. For there are people working to keep the water pumps going. If you turn your aircon on;on a sabath;you are breaking the sabath. If you ring up on a sabath day;you are also breaking the sabath. Break one law, and you are quilty of all. You also will be judged by the law. To me the written law is crucified with Christ. The law is written in my heart,not in stone.I follow Gods commandments,because of my love for God,not because it is written in stone. If I need to work on a sabath, to feed the family, I will work,because it is good work. But not for greed. The sabath is made for us,we are not slaves of the sabath. The scribes and pharisees like to judge according to the sabath.We are no scribe nor pharisee. If we sin,we can be forgiven,by his mercy. No man can be saved by just following the law,but by mercy alone. Judge no man according the sabath day,thats the old covenant;we are under a new covenant,under Christ. What;did Christ die for nothing? Because we have the law to go by?Are we denying the crucifixion? Do unto others as you do unto yourself. Promoting the sabath is not in Gods favour,but the denomination,the clan. wakeup.

No Wakeup, those are pharisaical rules not given in scripture. Neither is it to break the Sabbath to do any of those things, and those which chose to work on that day is beyond my control and beyond the realm of my gates. Read the commandment as it is written, “within thy gates”, that is to say within my borders, within the dominion given to me by God.

And the Scripture is clear on sanitation. Washing and removal of waste. One part of scripture is not to be made to nullify another.

All of those arguments are simply not scriptural.

Christ Jesus never broke the commandment, for if He ever did, then we are all eternally lost. I hope that this is truly understood.

Just as the majoroty of Jews in Jesus' day rejected Him while saying they kept His law [and yet plotted to murder Him], so too today the many 'christians' will say that they accept Jesus but reject His Law, and so reject Him and His authority of King of Kings.

His Law has not changed, neither can be changed, and the Cross of Jesu Christ proves this beyond any argumentation. His own words Wakeup reveal it could not be abolished, changed, nor altered…

…but there was such a power in scripture which thought to so change it… and that system is alive today.

Those which teach that the Ten Comamndments were nailed to the Cross, do not understand even the basic english of Colossians 2, etc. They do not understand what a Covenant is. They do not understand what Sin is. They do not understand why Christ Jesus came. They do not understand the plan of salvation and redemption. They do not understand Jesus words on the matter.

They are lawless, though they claim to follow Christ Jesus.

An entirely new thread will be created for this.

Also, did you not know that we are in the Judgment now? Verily I tell you, that Judgment in Heaven is now for the People of God. See Revelation 14:6-12. See Daniel 7-12. See Matthew 24-25, etc.

“..the hour of His judgment is come…”

…and in case any did not notice, that text is to be preached to the whole world, not after all is said and done…

[Anonymous]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 01 2012,06:41)

Hi AWHN, GREAT!  I hope you will keep your posts small  –  so that we will actually read them. Also, it would be nice if you would respond to our comments, you seem to do neither; with only a few exceptions. Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What you choose to read and not read will be always yours Ed J, but all will be without excuse…

[Ed J]

Quote (AWHN @ Dec. 01 2012,06:46)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 01 2012,06:41) Hi AWHN, GREAT!  I hope you will keep your posts small  –  so that we will actually read them. Also, it would be nice if you would respond to our comments, you seem to do neither; with only a few exceptions. Ed J What you choose to read and not read will be always yours Ed J, but all will be without excuse…

Hi AWHN,

I guess it's a good thing that I don't have to give an account to you then, right?  

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (AWHN @ Dec. 01 2012,07:04)

Hi Mr. Timothy VI, It really is not that long, compared with actual research papers and articles in journals, like Nature, Science, etc.  There is no time limit in which you or any have to complete its reading. I must say that this is always one of the very first two things which are used as an excuse to not so read… …'color' and 'length'. And I have been on many forums and the excuses [but this is what it is] are always the same.

Hi AWHN,

Are you suggesting that these are not valid reasons?
If everyone is telling you the same thing, why not change your presentation?

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – Albert Einstein

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Anonymous]

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28 KJV

kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou John 20:28 Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus

A comparison text:

Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, [even] unto my cause, my God and my Lord. Psalms 35:23 KJV

23exegerqhti kurie kai prosces th krisei mou o qeos mou kai o kurios mou eis thn dikhn mou [Psalms 34:23 LXX same as Psalms 35:23 KJV; Psalms – Septuagint Psalms 34:23 LXX, same as Psalms 35:23 KJV]

Back to John 20:28 [context]:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

The “him” is Jesus [context].

The literal translation reads:

“…the Lord of me and the God of me…”

The “me” is Thomas [context]. The text is using the “definite article” ['the'], not “a” [indefinite article].

“…the Lord of me and the God of me…”, the “me” is Thomas [context].

Let us compare two texts:

23exegerqhti kurie kai prosces th krisei mou o qeos mou kai o kurios mou eis thn dikhn mou [Psalms 34:23 LXX same as Psalms 35:23 KJV; Psalms – Septuagint Psalms 34:23 LXX, same as Psalms 35:23 KJV]

kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou John 20:28 [John 20 – 20:28 Greek Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus]

Do you see these two verses ? What do you see…

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. The “him” is Jesus [context].

 
It is normally stated in the Arianish theology that the scripture of John 20:28

(And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.), is to have the following “explanations”:

“Explanations proposed:

1. Thomas was surprised when he saw the Lord in their midst. “My God!” was just an expression, a “statement of surprise.”
2. Thomas was actually addressing both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
3. It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
4. Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.”

It seems that those which make such (above) statements automatically “exclude” [without even mentioning the 'possibility' for] the one singular explanation which fits perfectly and plainly with the scriptures (both in local and global context), which is to say that “JESUS is GOD”. Consider that. The possibility is not even listed, nor considered, but is automatically expunged silently without addressing it at all.

[ As an example of like-mindedness: This would be the same kind of reasoning that some of the same people argue that the “days” in Genesis 1 and 2 have to be anything else other that literal days. Some will advocate millions of years, others will give somewhat shorter time frames (thousand(s)), but generally they will allow that the “days” in Genesis are speaking about “an unknown and unspecified exact time frame” and are “not meant to be taken literally”. However, when later asked if these “timeframes” could then actually still reference a “24 hr period” [literal day] timeframe, they will always answer “no”. How strange. They will argue any other “possibility” instead and will continually refuse to acknowledge even the one “possibility” which scripture is putting forth. Scripture is clear, however. The Days in Genesis are literal days and the earth is 6,000 years old, and numerous texts [including the findings of science] can attest to this, but that is for another thread.]

With this in mind, let us now look more closely at the offered “explanations” of John 20:28.

1a. Thomas exclaimed in “surprise” unto “HIM” [JESUS; verse 29, etc] “…my GOD…”

The “explanation” we are 'given' is that Thomas had an “outburst” and we are then furnished with several translations which place a single punctuation mark, being an “exclamation point”, at the end of the words instead of a period.

Consider other well respected translations which use a “period” and not an “exclamation point”:

KJV
20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

ASV
20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Darby's ET
20:28 Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Douay Rheims
20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

Noah Webster Bible
20:28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

So, while there are translations that do indeed use an “exclamation mark” there are just as many which use a “period”; even one using a semicolon. But, even if so, does this easily close the case for either side at this point? No. The Greek manuscripts had no such punctuation for either case:

Stephens 1550 TR
kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

Scrivener 1894 TR
kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

Byzantine Majority
kai apekriqh qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

Alexandrian
apekriqh qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

Hort and Westcott
apekriqh qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

Will majority then decide? No. Let us now consider something new. Let us look to the following two sentences, using the differing punctuation and recompare with what the scripture reveals above:

“JESUS is the annointed KING and MESSIAH.” (Simply a true statement, a profession of that which is true.)

“JESUS is the annointed KING and MESSIAH!” (An exclamation of excitement of the profound truth.)

Now the question then is, “Which of the two sentences is saying anything that is not true?” Neither. They are both saying that which is true in different means. One sentence merely records a statement about the facts, and the other records those same facts as brought about by excitement. So, just because we will either choose the “period” or the “exclamation” it does not alter the facts of that which is true in the statement. Thomas said, “my LORD and my GOD” unto JESUS…

Since there is no punctuation in the Greek manuscripts, if someone wants to have an “exclamation” in the place where others put a “period” in this instance, so be it, but there should never be any doctrinal theology of scripture that should ever be hanging upon something so insignificant as an added punctuation. Either way, in reverence and understanding (It is JESUS.), or even in awesome excitement (It is JESUS!).

Another example would be the statement of “JESUS CHRIST.” This is saying that which is true. Others today will even use the same words in swearing/expletive [which will not be repeated or demonstrated, “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LO
RD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” Exodus 20:7], but does even doing that, alter that which is true in the expletive? No, it does not, for JESUS is still CHRIST, whether one is simply acknowledging HIM as HE is in reverence, or merely fact, or even taking HIS name in vain as many people do.

1b. Thomas exclaimed in “surprise” unto “HIM” [JESUS; verse 29, etc] “…my GOD…”

The second part to this is that Thomas did not merely blurt out, “…my GOD!” as the first “explanation” seems to give to us [even assuming for the exclamation point], but rather, what he [Thomas] did say was this… “…my LORD and my GOD!”. [Quoting part of a scripture is sometimes very dangerous to do. See Luke 4:10]

Let us consider this thought a moment longer. Thomas, at first, after hearing the reports of JESUS being alive and resurrected, denied those reports [John 20:25] flat out, for his faith was lacking. It was not till 8 days later [John 20:26] that Thomas was then suddenly face to face with the Bodily Resurrected JESUS CHRIST, and being offered to directly place his [Thomas'] own hands and fingers into the very wounds of JESUS. JESUS submitted to the very test Thomas had asked for days earlier.

A little speculation and a question, Would this not have moved him [Thomas] to tears, joy, reverence, excitement, awe and fear? We can only guess intelligently about it. So again, “period” or “exclamation”, take your pick, but Thomas was suddenly in the presence of the risen SAVIOUR, looking directly at the very wounds in HIS hands and side, and suddenly no longer “doubting” but believing!

So, in response to JESUS standing before him in such a manner, Thomas, with a new revelation that JESUS was indeed Risen, proclaims unto JESUS, “my LORD and my GOD”. NOTICE that Thomas was not so overly excited as to miss out on formulating a complex sentence/exclamation/thought, which means direct, involved and contemplative thought took palce. It is not as if it is recorded in the same way as if anyone were to simply blurt out, “OUCH!” or “YEOW!”, which would be something that takes very little cognitive ability, but rather what Thomas says, would be akin to anyone exclaiming “That really, really hurts and smarts!” Clearly cognitive reasoning much more than that of “OW!”

Look again. Thomas begins first with “…my LORD…” and then continues with the combining word “…and…” and follows up with “…my GOD”. A deep and complex thought formulated into words and not something 'right off of the top of the head', not a 'knee-jerk' reaction, but rather total realization.

2. “Thomas was actually addressing both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ…” [being first “My Lord” – Jesus there below and then “My GOD” to the Father above “in” Christ.]

This “explanation” directly overlooks the nearest immediate context and violates it. The nearest context and scripture reveals that, “And Thomas answered and said unto him…”.

“…said unto HIM…” Thomas was not addressing multiple individuals in this passage. The “HIM” is singular and not plural (A.). The “HIM” is referring directly back to JESUS [verses 26-27, 29] who was right then standing before him [Thomas] and submitting to be “handled” so that Thomas would believe that HE [JESUS] was indeed resurrected and risen.

(A.) “(GNT-TR+) καιG2532 CONJ απεκριθηG611 V-ADI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θωμαςG2381 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM οG3588 T-NSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS” [E-Sword App. on John 20:28 KJV, Greek Translation with Helps]

Let us also notice the word “answered”. To whom was Thomas directly answering [replying to]? It was to “HIM”, which by context is JESUS who had just spoken directly to Thomas about his [Thomas'] unbelief.

(Some may come to the conclusion from that, that a question must first be asked in order to receive or to be “answered”, but this is not so. An “echo” can “answer”. A person replying to a statement made by someone else can “answer” in return, a rebuttal for example, etc. JESUS answered the Devil in the wilderness in rebuttals. The scriptures reveal that people “answer” all of the time when no question was immediately asked. In fact the secondary definition of “answer” is: “2. to begin to speak, but always where something has preceded (either said or done) to which the remarks refer” [Strong's Concordance])

“Explanations proposed:

1. Thomas was surprised when he saw the Lord in their midst. “My God!” was just an expression, a “statement of surprise.”
2. Thomas was actually addressing both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
3. It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
4. Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.”

[For consideration of 1. and 2., see Part 1]

3a. “It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text)…”

This part of the “explanation” ignores this passage:

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

[While the (above) text, when originally written was then primarily speaking of the OT, we know today that it also encompasses the whole Bible, OT and NT. Even Peter “then” acknowledges that Pauls writings were “scripture”: As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16] Thus the text [John 20:28] is a “teaching” text and profitable for “doctrine”, “reproof”, “correction” and “instruction in righteousness” when we look at the whole context of it. Since scripture reveals that we are to worship GOD the Creator in many places, we must know that scripture reveals this to indeed be JESUS CHRIST, and the voice of the Apostle Thomas [who once doubted], exclaims before all “My Lord and My God”… will any others also release their doubt, confess their error and exclaim with him the same?

3b.“…actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.””

This remaining “explanation” ignores the many tex
ts (a few examples to follow) upon which JESUS immediately censored HIS Apostles and Disciples, for saying, thinking or doing foolish things or transgressing in HIS presence. For instance:

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Matthew 16:23 [See also Mark 8:33]

He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Matthew 17:25

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? Matthew 26:53

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:25

In this particular instance Thomas was “Doubting” and Unbelieving. JESUS was saddened at his [Thomas'] unbelief and commented on it for future generations:

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:29

If Thomas were indeed actually making such a grievous “a mistake” and/or blaspheming/taking the name of the LORD in vain, falsely addressing JESUS as GOD when as claimed HE is not, then JESUS would have immediately corrected the “wayward” apostle and set him straight [for there are many passages which deal with a persons' speech and how it should be rightfully conducted, Matthew 5:19; Colossians 4:6; Titus 2:8, etc]. In this particular instance in regards to this “explanation” the “argument from silence” gives more than enough evidence that JESUS did not need to censure the statement/exclamation that Thomas made directly to and about JESUS for it was true and deserving of who JESUS is [HE is both LORD and GOD]. Also, JESUS had no issue with immediately telling Satan of his error. [Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8] Since JESUS would know that such a statement from Thomas (if being in error as claimed, “mistake”, etc) if gone unchecked would lead to many others later on repeating what Thomas declared outright and so sin, HE would have corrected the matter then and there for all to see (including we who follow after now), but JESUS “accepts” the statement as it is directed and given, even as HE received worship from Moses [Exodus 3] and Joshua [Joshua 5], “And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.” Exodus 3:5, now notice who this “he said” is in the following, “Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.” Acts 7:33

4.“Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The word 'theos' is generic and has many meanings and can mean 'judge'.”

This “explanation” begins with a “could have been” with no evidence to support such an assertion. But let us look at it anyway in all fairness and give it the benefit despite the doubt.

First, let us begin by looking at the word definition of “Theos”:

“1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent

1) of magistrates and judges

AV — God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5 [Strong's Concordance]

Looking at another source (please be patient with the sources, as there is a point to be made), “Theos” is:

“God:
(A) in the polytheism of the Greeks, denoted “a god or deity,” e.g., Act 14:11; 19:26; 28:6; 1Cr 8:5; Gal 4:8.

(B)(a) Hence the word was appropriated by Jews and retained by Christians to denote “the one true God.” In the Sept. theos translates (with few exceptions) the Hebrew words Elohim and Jehovah, the former indicating His power and preeminence, the latter His unoriginated, immutable, eternal and self-sustained existence.

In the NT, these and all the other Divine attributes are predicated of Him. To Him are ascribed, e.g., His unity, or monism, e.g., Mar 12:29; 1Ti 2:5; self-existence, Jhn 5:26; immutability, Jam 1:17; eternity, Rom 1:20; universality, Mat 10:29; Act 17:26-28; almighty power, Mat 19:26; infinite knowledge, Act 2:23; 15:18; Rom 11:33; creative power, Rom 11:36; 1Cr 8:6; Eph 3:9; Rev 4:11; 10:6; absolute holiness, 1Pe 1:15; 1Jo 1:5; righteousness, Jhn 17:25; faithfulness, 1Cr 1:9; 10:13; 1Th 5:24; 2Th 3:3; 1Jo 1:9; love, 1Jo 4:8, 16; mercy, Rom 9:15, 18; truthfulness, Tts 1:2; Hbr 6:18.
See GOOD, No. 1 (b).

(b) The Divine attributes are likewise indicated or definitely predicated of Christ, e.g., Mat 20:18, 19; Jhn 1:1-3; 1:18, RV, marg.; 5:22-29; 8:58; 14:6; 17:22-24; 20:28; Rom 1:4; 9:5; Phl 3:21; Col 1:15; 2:3; Tts 2:13, RV; Hbr 1:3; 13:8; 1Jo 5:20; Rev 22:12, 13.

 Also of the Holy Spirit, e.g., Mat 28:19; Luk 1:35; Jhn 14:16; 15:26; 16:7-14; Rom 8:9, 26; 1Cr 12:11; 2Cr 13:14.

(d) Theos is used

(1) with the definite article,

(2) without (i.e., as an anarthrous noun). “The English may or may not have need of the article in translation. But that point cuts no figure in the Greek idiom. Thus in Act 27:23 ('the God whose I am,' RV) the article points out the special God whose Paul is, and is to be preserved in English. In the very next verse (ho theos) we in English do not need the articles” (A. T. Robertson, Gram. of Greek, NT, p. 758).

As to this latter it is usual to employ the article with a proper name, when mentioned a second time. There are, of course, exceptions to this, as when the absence of the article serves to lay stress upon, or give precision to, the character or nature of what is expressed in the noun. A notable instance of this is in Jhn 1:1, “and the Word was God;” here a double stress is on theos, by the absence of the article and by the emphatic position. To translate it literally, “a god was the Word,” is entirely misleading. Moreover, that “the Word” is the subject of the sentence, exemplifies the rule that the subject is to be determined by its having the article when the predicate is anarthrous (without the article). In Rom 7:22, in the phrase “the law of God,” both nouns have the article; in ver. 25, neither has the article. This is in accordance with a general rule that if two nouns are united by the genitive case (the “of” case), either both have the article, or both are without. Here, in the first instance, both nouns, “God” and “the law” are definite, whereas in ver. 25 the word “G
od” is not simply titular; the absence of the article stresses His character as lawgiver.

Where two or more epithets are applied to the same person or thing, one article usually serves for both (the exceptions being when a second article lays stress upon different aspects of the same person or subject, e.g., Rev 1:17). In Tts 2:13 the RV correctly has “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Moulton (Prol., p.84) shows, from papyri writings of the early Christian era, that among Greek-speaking Christians this was “a current formula” as applied to Christ. So in 2Pe 1:1 (cp. 1:11; 3:18).

In the following titles God is described by certain of His attributes; the God of glory, Act 7:2; of peace, Rom 15:33; 16:20; Phl 4:9; 1Th 5:23; Hbr 13:20; of love and peace, 2Cr 13:11; of patience and comfort, Rom 15:5; of all comfort, 2Cr 1:3; of hope, Rom 15:13; of all grace, 1Pe 5:10. These describe Him, not as in distinction from other persons, but as the source of all these blessings; hence the employment of the definite article. In such phrases as “the God of a person,” e.g., Mat 22:32, the expression marks the relationship in which the person stands to God and God to him.

(e) In the following the nominative case is used for the vocative, and always with the article; Mar 15:34; Luk 18:11, 13; Jhn 20:28; (Act 4:24 in some mss.); Hbr 1:8; 10:7.

(f) The phrase “the things of God” (translated literally or otherwise) stands for

(1) His interests, Mat 16:23; Mar 8:33;

(2) His counsels, 1Cr 2:11;

(3) things which are due to Him, Mat 22:21; Mar 12:17; Luk 20:25. The phrase “things pertaining to God,” Rom 15:17; Hbr 2:17; 5:1, describes, in the Heb. passages, the sacrificial service of the priest; in the Rom. passage the Gospel ministry as an offering to God.

 The word is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, Jhn 10:34, quoted from Psa 82:6, which indicates that God Himself sits in judgment on those whom He has appointed. The application of the term to the Devil, 2Cr 4:4, and the belly, Phl 3:19, virtually places these instances under (A).” [Vine's Expository]

As can be witnessed the greek word “Theos” is used over 1,300 times as GOD. The main definitions refer to GOD, and it is only in the last and fourth use or definition and finally sub category [in Strong's Concordance] that it can also reference a “judge” [in Vine's, again as last subcategory]. The word is not so “generic” as will usually be stated and is more specific than allowed for. If we consider the septuagint [LXX] and the Greek text there, the number dramatically increases for its translated use as “GOD”[simply begin with Genesis 1:1 and continue until Malachi…].

However, let us consider that “Theos” has the possibility to mean “judge”, and even go further and consider the possibility in John 20:28. Does this alter who JESUS is? Absolutely not. So, even if JESUS is being called “my LORD and my JUDGE” then scripture is crystal clear, For GOD alone is our JUDGE:

Arise, O God, judge the earth… Psalms 82:8;p

…God judge the world? Romans 3:6;p

…for God [is] judge himself… Psalms 50:6;p

But God [is] the judge… Psalms 75:7;p

…God shall judge the righteous and the wicked… Ecclesiastes 3:17;p

…to God the Judge of all… Hebrews 12:23;p

…whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. Hebrews 13:4;p

JESUS CHRIST is our JUDGE:

…for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10;p

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ…2 Corinthians 5:10;p

And yet if I judge, my judgment is true… John 8:16;p

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7 [See also Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3, etc.]

The only “explanation” that was not accounted for, is verily, the one that reveals what scripture plainly states in that JESUS truly is “my LORD and my GOD.!” Amen.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 01 2012,07:28)

Quote (AWHN @ Dec. 01 2012,07:04) Hi Mr. Timothy VI, It really is not that long, compared with actual research papers and articles in journals, like Nature, Science, etc.  There is no time limit in which you or any have to complete its reading. I must say that this is always one of the very first two things which are used as an excuse to not so read… …'color' and 'length'. And I have been on many forums and the excuses [but this is what it is] are always the same.   Hi AWHN, Are you suggesting that these are not valid reasons? If everyone is telling you the same thing, why not change your presentation? “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” – Albert Einstein God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

…because Ed J, I have, and it matters not, in multiple forums. The excuses still exist and presist. Even here, it is already manifested.

The same definition by Albert Einstien has also been quoted at me, and yet they never seem to think their own posts [which I have told them beforehand what they would do] are fitting their own definition.

[Ed J]

Hi AWHN,

Thomas eventually recognized that YHVH was in Jesus!

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest;
and how can we know the way? (Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and
put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. (John 20:25)

John 10:38: But if I do, though ye believe not me,
believe the works: that ye may know,
and believe, that  the Father is in me, and I in him.

THOMAS FINALLY BELIEVED THE WORKS OF YHVH! (John 20:29)
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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