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Quote (942767 @ Aug. 11 2009,09:22) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 10 2009,11:08) Marty said: Quote thethinker: Is he not our High Priest who lives forever to make intercession for us? And, there is something about confessing him as Lord, in order for anyone to be saved. Still a mediator, and still a man, but a man with a spiritual body. He is the last Adam.
His intercessory work is done. He finished His intercessory work in ad70. The destruction of the temple was the sign God gave them that it is finished. It does not take two thousand years to make atonement. Jesus no longer has humanity. He has the glory He had with His Father before the world began.
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, what do you say about the following scriptures?
Quote Hbr 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
I have already answered this. Hebrews was written while Christ was still completing the atonement. Chapter 8 says that the destruction of the temple was the sign God would give His people when He completed that work. The temple was destroyed in ad70. Therefore, Christ completed His priestly work. The word “forever” is an inaccurate translation. It should say “continually” (to its completion). While all other priests died and could not complete the atonement Christ lived continually UNTIL the atonement was completed.His work is done! It does not take two thousand years to make atonement.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,11:07) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 11 2009,09:22) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 10 2009,11:08) Marty said: Quote thethinker: Is he not our High Priest who lives forever to make intercession for us? And, there is something about confessing him as Lord, in order for anyone to be saved. Still a mediator, and still a man, but a man with a spiritual body. He is the last Adam.
His intercessory work is done. He finished His intercessory work in ad70. The destruction of the temple was the sign God gave them that it is finished. It does not take two thousand years to make atonement. Jesus no longer has humanity. He has the glory He had with His Father before the world began.
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, what do you say about the following scriptures?
Quote Hbr 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
I have already answered this. Hebrews was written while Christ was still completing the atonement. Chapter 8 says that the destruction of the temple was the sign God would give His people when He completed that work. The temple was destroyed in ad70. Therefore, Christ completed His priestly work. The word “forever” is an inaccurate translation. It should say “continually” (to its completion). While all other priests died and could not complete the atonement Christ lived continually UNTIL the atonement was completed.His work is done! It does not take two thousand years to make atonement.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The atonement has indeed been made, but we are talking about him being a mediator between God and man, and making intercession for us when we fall short of perfect obedience.
The following scripture seems to indicate that he is a priest in heaven, and also, God gave Moses specific instructions to pattern the tabernacle on earth after the true tabernacle in heaven.
Quote Hbr 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mountLove in Christ,
MartyHi thethinker:
The atonement has indeed been made, but we are talking about him being a mediator between God and man, and making intercession for us when we fall short of perfect obedience.
The following scripture seems to indicate that he is a priest in heaven, and also, God gave Moses specific instructions to pattern the tabernacle on earth after the true tabernacle in heaven.
Quote Hbr 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mountMarty,
I have already explained this passage. You have to read on through chapter 9 which indicates that when the temple would come down the atonement would be finished. His mediatorial and intercessory work is done. It does not take two thousand years to make atonement (mediate).Our salvation is based in His work of Mediation IN HISTORY.
thinker
Marty,
I have already explained this passage. You have to read on through chapter 9 which indicates that when the temple would come down the atonement would be finished. His mediatorial and intercessory work is done. It does not take to thousand years to make atonement (mediate).Our salvation is based in His work of Mediation IN HISTORY.
thinker
————–
If this is true, then irregardless of what I (or WE) do, I'm (or we're) saved. Is the resurrection also past?Quote (glad tidings @ Aug. 12 2009,01:53) Marty,
I have already explained this passage. You have to read on through chapter 9 which indicates that when the temple would come down the atonement would be finished. His mediatorial and intercessory work is done. It does not take to thousand years to make atonement (mediate).Our salvation is based in His work of Mediation IN HISTORY.
thinker
————–
If this is true, then irregardless of what I (or WE) do, I'm (or we're) saved. Is the resurrection also past?
gt,
Christ's priestly work is done! Believers have full access to the throne of grace now. Yes the resurrection is past. We don't “sleep” now but we are caught up directly to God.thinker
Rationalize this verse in the NT and tell me it doesn't prove the trinity.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV
You need to understand something people.
For the creator of the universe/everything… To choose the Creation of the Human Race to bear his offspring, Jesus Christ.To reconcile Mankind with it's creator. This is the most serious act of humbletude known to anything.
What's even more humbling is that the creator of everything, condemned his Only Begotten Son to the punishment of a sinner.
To create a path so that if the most righteous can be condemned for a sin he did not commit.
Then the most filthy may be forgiven for a sin he DID commit, in belief that his maker loves him/her THAT MUCH.
The Humbletude of allowing his Son to Die for us expresses such a love from our God that non of our senses can even come close to a fraction of fathoming how much our God loves us.
And to know his Son, who is God in flesh (not the Father in flesh, THE SON in flesh) reduced himself to be with us is why this is so significant.
If Jesus was but a mere man and only a man, then how can he reconcile us with God?
Scripture reveals he must be part God and part Man to reconcile the bridge between us. Amen
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,12:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4:
Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?
Definition taken from dictionary.com.
Quote –adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons.
Hello TC,John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Son), and the Word (Son) was WITH God (Father) and the Word (Son) was God (Father).
Mathematical conclusion: Son = Father
Biologically Son = offspring of a Father
Illogical conclusion and a lie. Son OF God can only be the son or God but not BOTH. Notice that the son was WITH God proving that he is NOT God.
Notice the difference between these two if you can:
Son of God (offspring coming FROM God)
God, the Son (God; a false god)Since Jesus claimed to be the son of God (his words) he cannot be God whom he came from. And I'll believe Jesus over any church's doctrine that is contrary to him.
Jesus is “Lord” on at least 3 counts:
He bought me with his blood when he died on the Cross and therefore I am his. I call him Lord.
Everything was created THRU him by God and he is my Creator, I call him “Lord”.
He will reign for 1,000 years and everyone will call him Lord.
David
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,04:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4:
Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?
Definition taken from dictionary.com.
Quote –adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons.
It was God that made Jesus both Lord and Christ.Are there any genuine scholars here who can do the 'word for word' expansion of Jude 4?
It seems wierd to me that Jude should be suggesting that Jesus is 'Sovereign Lord' when he walked with Christ and heard his words firsthand.
My Bible has separate laudings, one for Jesus and one for God:
“…who turn the grace of God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”Seek always for a qualifier verse. A valid translation is always qualified elsewhere in the Scriptures.
Is there another verse that makes claim that Jesus is 'Sovereign', i believe there is not.
Does Jude give higher glory to God over Jesus, or equal, or greater glory to Jesus over God?
Well, what does verse 24 & 25 say?
Are these two verses not alluding to Jesus 'keeping and presenting you' to 'God our Saviour, who alone is Wise'?
Clearly, Jesus is the lesser, per se, and God the higher, further, God alone 'is wise', not Jesus nor 'both', but 'God Alone'.
Therefore, those who translate, or prefer the teanslation that claim that 'Lord' means Jesus is 'Sovereign' are forcing the word 'Lord', of all its various meanings, to be this one expansive meaning for their own 'UnGodly' and 'Lewd' reasons, denying the our only Lord God and giving in to Satan who creeps in unawares to some who are marked out for condemnation and get them to place Jesus equal or above God, his and our Father, so he too, should he accept the temptation (He denied it in the wilderness, why accept it now that he has conquered?) would be comdemned with them that caused the condemnation.
Quote (JustAskin @ July 22 2010,22:09) Therefore, those who translate, or prefer the teanslation that claim that 'Lord' means Jesus is 'Sovereign' are forcing the word 'Lord', of all its various meanings, to be this one expansive meaning for their own 'UnGodly' and 'Lewd' reasons, denying the our only Lord God and giving in to Satan who creeps in unawares to some who are marked out for condemnation and get them to place Jesus equal or above God, his and our Father, so he too, should he accept the temptation (He denied it in the wilderness, why accept it now that he has conquered?) would be comdemned with them that caused the condemnation.
JA……………Good POINT.peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,12:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4:
Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?
Definition taken from dictionary.com.
Quote –adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons.
Hello TC,Tp help maybe if you put up the noun definition you'd see it more clearly:
Sovereign: Noun
1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.To be an adjective the words would've been BEFORE Jesus which they were describing.
The Professor
Quote (t8 @ July 23 2010,02:56) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,04:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4:
Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?
Definition taken from dictionary.com.
Quote –adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons.
It was God that made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
t8,Here is the NASB of Jude: (Doesn't have sovereign and none of the other translations that are listed it have it either. Which Chruch book is this from?)
Listed below are the dictionary definitions of sovereign and none of them say that it is a “characteristic” requirement of “God” as the post claims it is:
Sovereign:
1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.Jesus said in Mat 28 that all power and authority had been given to him #2 above (meaning that he was not God) thereby avoiding any confusion of someone trying to claim that Jesus was God by using “sovereign” or any other word that would contradict what Jesus himself said.
Jud 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only “Master” and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
The Professor
Read Revelation 22:13 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”
Is it not clear here that Jesus is God, being the Alpha and Omega.
To all! There is so much confusion of what Christ is now and what He was before. I agree with KJ that He was in Heaven with His Father before the world was. I don't agree that Christ will stay in all authority after all have been made subject to God. Then the kingdom will go back to Jehovah God. 1Corinth, 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him that put all things under Him, that God will be all in all.
Peace to all, IreneQuote (143neth @ Aug. 19 2010,01:17) Read Revelation 22:13 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” Is it not clear here that Jesus is God, being the Alpha and Omega.
It is clear in 1:7-8:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Verse 7 says that He comes with clouds and that He was PIERCED. Then He Himself says He is the “Lord God” WHICH IS TO COME the “Almighty”.
Looks like Jesus to me! Or was the Father “pierced?”
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 19 2010,01:50) Quote (143neth @ Aug. 19 2010,01:17) Read Revelation 22:13 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” Is it not clear here that Jesus is God, being the Alpha and Omega.
It is clear in 1:7-8:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Verse 7 says that He comes with clouds and that He was PIERCED. Then He Himself says He is the “Lord God” WHICH IS TO COME the “Almighty”.
Looks like Jesus to me! Or was the Father “pierced?”
the Roo
Jesus will come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. However when I see Lord I know it is Jesus, when I see LORD I know it is Jehovah God. All through the Old Test. you will find Scriptures that say LORD. It is always Jehovah God. Jesus is also called The Word of God, which some will not either say it is false or ignore all together….Rev. 19:13-16 talks about Him… He will come back as that. It is made real clear to me
there……to me it is not clear however about the Almighty God, in verse 11 of Rev. 1 I have always thought that when it says Almighty God it is Jehovah God and that Jesus is the Mighty God…That will have to be seen… it really does not matter in the end all will go back to Jehovah God anyway…I was just thinking since The Word of God has all authority in the Millenium, just maybe He will be called the Almighty, who knows, will see one day.
Peace IreneQuote (Gene @ Aug. 01 2009,01:50) Cato…….I agree with you, and Jesus said (NO) MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD, but the SON has DISCLOSED HIM. So simple Logic would say if we can't see GOD , but we can see Jesus, then Jesus is not GOD, He simply made Him more Known to us. The Trinity is simply a LIE taught by the APOSTATE CHURCHES, A pagan teaching disguised as CHRISTIANITY. imo peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
This is truth.Jesus was a man.
but he also is the incarnation of The Word of God.
This means, Jesus is the sole…revealer of YHVH himself.
————
The bible is derived from Jesus.
The prophets and their wisdom were derived from Jesus.All of creation was derived from Jesus.
All so that Jesus may reveal his Father, The One True and Only God…YHVH.
————-
The rest of you, are blind.
and the reason you are…is because,
Jesus is The Perfect Personification of YHVH himself, but is not YHVH himself.
being the perfect personification of YHVH, it may appear that he is indeed YHVH, but it is to be understood that he is not.
However, his glory is likened unto that of YHVH, but should be reserved and perceived to be The Glory of The Son….not The Father.
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,02:06) …when I see Lord I know it is Jesus, when I see LORD I know it is Jehovah God. … Peace Irene
Hi Irene,Why don't you follow 'your own' advise you give to us?
The LORD JEHOVAH is KING. (Psalm 29:10 / Psalm 10:16)Rev. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh
a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Seems you have also made an exception to the rule you follow?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Irene,
Rev.19:13 And he(HolySpirit) was clothed with a vesture
dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Isaiah 63:2-10)John 1:1…
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.English ↔ Hebrew ↔ Greek
“Word of God”(86) = (אלהים](86] = [ο λογος](86)th Prime Hō Lōgôs
“Word of God” ↔ “GOD” ↔ “The Word”I hope me carefully lining this up for you will help you to see “Bible Truth”!
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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