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Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ July 29 2009,16:35) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,05:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4:
Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean?
Definition taken from dictionary.com.
Quote –adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons.
Yes, Jesus is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit
He is the living and the dead
He is the flesh and the spirit
EFJ,I understand your intentions when you say “Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” but you must be very careful in how you word this. GOD is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son only. We trinitarians cannot claim that the Son is also the Father and the Holy Spirit because they are separate persons. God is the generic word for all three persons of God.
Thank you for your post, and I do understand what you meant!
TC27
Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,14:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,He said that before he was exalted. What is so hard to understand about that? Really?
TC27
Quote (942767 @ July 29 2009,11:45) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 30 2009,07:31) Marty said: Quote Hi TC27: You say that Jesus did not correct the Pharisees when they indicated that Jesus was making himself equal to God but let's read these series of verses in context, and see what you think:
Quote
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
What do you think did he correct them or not. He said he could do nothing of himself but only that the Father showed him. It seems to me that by this he was saying that he was not equal to God.
What does the scripture that states “For in him all the fulness of diedty dwells in bodily form” mean to you? I gave you my answer by saying that the Spirit of God dwells within the body of Christ fromt he head to the toe.
This is the scripture in context:
Quote
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
And so, what are you saying this means to you?
Love in Christ,
MartyWow Marty,
Ok, so the fact that Jesus said all things that the Father does had to be shown to him was because HE WAS IN THE FLESH! This means that he had not been exalted yet! It isn't hard. He took on the flesh and made himself lesser as it says in Philippians 2. He was then axalted to the equality of the Father as it also says in Philippians 2. This means that while Jesus was on earth he depended on the Father to show him the ways, but only because HE COSE to bcome one of us. In choosing this he shows his sovereignty.
Oh and read my post to Nish about the Colossians verse.
TC27
But you said that Jesus didn't correct the Pharisees. Did you not?
Marty,He did not correct them because he was still God even if he was in a more humble state at that period in time. It was only a temporary humility to become man. He knew and looked forward to his exaltation.
TC27
Hi TC,
So this part of God who was less than God was still God??
Marvellous contortions to justify a catholic doctrine.Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 31 2009,03:50) Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,14:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,He said that before he was exalted. What is so hard to understand about that? Really?
TC27
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. His Son believes what His Father tells Him. So your Statement is false. So whatever He said then, goes today too.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,14:36) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 31 2009,03:50) Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,14:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,He said that before he was exalted. What is so hard to understand about that? Really?
TC27
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. His Son believes what His Father tells Him. So your Statement is false. So whatever He said then, goes today too.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi IreneYes God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever!
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8
Its okay though. Anti-Trinitarians do this all the time, like saying God spoke to me this or that and then at the same time say Jesus or the Spirit said the same thing.
Thing is they do not know the difference. That should tell them something. But usually it doesnt.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus is not God but if you are in the vine he is your appointed Lord.[jn15, 1 cor 8]
His God and our God if you are in him is the Father.[1cor8, jn20]
But you will probably prefer to continue in rebellion.Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 31 2009,03:52) Quote (942767 @ July 29 2009,11:45) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 30 2009,07:31) Marty said: Quote Hi TC27: You say that Jesus did not correct the Pharisees when they indicated that Jesus was making himself equal to God but let's read these series of verses in context, and see what you think:
Quote
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
What do you think did he correct them or not. He said he could do nothing of himself but only that the Father showed him. It seems to me that by this he was saying that he was not equal to God.
What does the scripture that states “For in him all the fulness of diedty dwells in bodily form” mean to you? I gave you my answer by saying that the Spirit of God dwells within the body of Christ fromt he head to the toe.
This is the scripture in context:
Quote
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
And so, what are you saying this means to you?
Love in Christ,
MartyWow Marty,
Ok, so the fact that Jesus said all things that the Father does had to be shown to him was because HE WAS IN THE FLESH! This means that he had not been exalted yet! It isn't hard. He took on the flesh and made himself lesser as it says in Philippians 2. He was then axalted to the equality of the Father as it also says in Philippians 2. This means that while Jesus was on earth he depended on the Father to show him the ways, but only because HE COSE to bcome one of us. In choosing this he shows his sovereignty.
Oh and read my post to Nish about the Colossians verse.
TC27
But you said that Jesus didn't correct the Pharisees. Did you not?
Marty,He did not correct them because he was still God even if he was in a more humble state at that period in time. It was only a temporary humility to become man. He knew and looked forward to his exaltation.
TC27
Hi TC27:Obviously you are not going to change your position even if you are shown the truth, but a servant of the Lord must strive, and so, I will just leave it at that.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,10:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Where could I find an emoticon of a smiley beating its head against the wall? That's how Irene makes me feel. Jesus indicated that the Father being greater than Him limited Him in what He could do for His disciples. So His going back to the Father would eliminate that hindrance.thinker
TC27 said:
Quote Marty, He did not correct them because he was still God even if he was in a more humble state at that period in time. It was only a temporary humility to become man. He knew and looked forward to his exaltation.
This is so clearly taught in scripture it makes one wonder why there is even a debate.
thinker
Hi TT,
Where is it clearly taught in scripture that God became humble and even became a man?
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is spoken of in Phil 2
Do you have clear teaching for us??Quote (thethinker @ July 31 2009,09:40) Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,10:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Where could I find an emoticon of a smiley beating its head against the wall? That's how Irene makes me feel. Jesus indicated that the Father being greater than Him limited Him in what He could do for His disciples. So His going back to the Father would eliminate that hindrance.thinker
Then don't read my Post. Simple as that. Some will never want to learn from another. In my 71 years on this earth, I have never met someone like you.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2009,10:05) Hi TT,
Where is it clearly taught in scripture that God became humble and even became a man?
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is spoken of in Phil 2
Do you have clear teaching for us??
You're in denial Nick. It does NOT say Jesus Christ the Son of God in Philippians 2. It says that Jesus Christ existed in God's form and made Himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant and became in the likeness of men. It's clear Nick! And the way you anti-trinitarians are treating the exaltation of Jesus exposes your errors.thinker
Hi TT,
It says Jesus and he said he is the Son of God but never claimed to be God Who he identified as the Father[jn8.54].Why can you not believe him?
How gave you the right to override his words and those of Paul in 1 cor 8 and appoint him as our God?
Quote (Cindy @ July 31 2009,10:06) Quote (thethinker @ July 31 2009,09:40) Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,10:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Where could I find an emoticon of a smiley beating its head against the wall? That's how Irene makes me feel. Jesus indicated that the Father being greater than Him limited Him in what He could do for His disciples. So His going back to the Father would eliminate that hindrance.thinker
Then don't read my Post. Simple as that. Some will never want to learn from another. In my 71 years on this earth, I have never met someone like you.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
If you have been on this earth so long then you should know how to tell a whole story. The Father was greater than Jesus because while in the flesh He was limited. It was because of His limitation in the flesh that He had to go back to the Father. He plainly told His disciples this. He told them that He could not send the Helper and do for them what was needed unless he went back to the Father. He had to go to the Father's right hand of power. This is the place of equality. Please get it right!JESUS DID NOT MEAN THAT THE FATHER WAS GREATER THAN HIM FOREVER!!
thinker
Irene said:
Quote Some will never want to learn from another. In my 71 years on this earth, I have never met someone like you.
Irene,
Show that you will believe ALL the Scriptures and not pick and choose and I will learn from you. If you are going to discard scriptures you don't like then I will discard your arguments. Trinitarians believe ALL the scriptures. Anti-trinitarians do not.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 31 2009,10:41) Quote (Cindy @ July 31 2009,10:06) Quote (thethinker @ July 31 2009,09:40) Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,10:12) Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I.
John 14:28 …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I. Also in
Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all.
Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son. Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not. If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss? And so you can look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father. I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father. God is only a tittle. To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved. And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God. IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation.
Rev. 3:14
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love Irene
Where could I find an emoticon of a smiley beating its head against the wall? That's how Irene makes me feel. Jesus indicated that the Father being greater than Him limited Him in what He could do for His disciples. So His going back to the Father would eliminate that hindrance.thinker
Then don't read my Post. Simple as that. Some will never want to learn from another. In my 71 years on this earth, I have never met someone like you.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
If you have been on this earth so long then you should know how to tell a whole story. The Father was greater than Jesus because while in the flesh He was limited. It was because of His limitation in the flesh that He had to go back to the Father. He plainly told His disciples this. He told them that He could not send the Helper and do for them what was needed unless he went back to the Father. He had to go to the Father's right hand of power. This is the place of equality. Please get it right!JESUS DID NOT MEAN THAT THE FATHER WAS GREATER THAN HIM FOREVER!!
thinker
Hi TT,
So a human part of a multipartite community god was greater for a time than another part with all parts remaining god?I prefer scripture.
A couple of questions.
1. If God (the Father) is essentially a spiritual entity and unmanifest the concept of the Holy Ghost seems redundant especially if he/it is a co-equal with the Father and not just a temporary emmination.
2. If Jesus is yet another equal of God, it is paradoxical, as the all powerful unlimited can not become limited and still be God. When you say Jesus is God coming into human form it sounds like the Hindu concept of avatars where one of their gods would bring a limited aspect of itself into human form like Krishna was for Vishnu. Yet in the Trinity Jesus is another co-equal with the Father so this is not the case because avatars are limited partial aspects of their deities. So how then does Unlimited power and knowledge house itself into flesh and still be without limit? It can't and if it is not without limit it can't be equal to that which is unlimited.
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,07:35) Marty said: Quote Hi thethinker: No, the scriptures do not say that Jesus was in the form of God “before he became a man”. You are adding to the scriptures when you say, “before he became a man”. He was in the form of God as God's Christ, and the Apostle Paul is simply using the life of Jesus to teach the church about humility in those verses that you say I left out.
Marty,
I marvel that you can say that I am adding to the scriptures when this is what you are doing. It does NOT say that Jesus was in the form of God “as God's Christ.” It clearly says that He existed in God's form and then took upon Himself the form of a servant and was “MADE in the likeness of men.” And “being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.”You do NOT let the scriptures be self explanatory. You add the words “as God's Christ.” It CLEARLY says that Jesus existed in God's form and then became a man.
thinker
Greetings TT…..And what form might Gods form imply? Perhaps… The Word.Quote (thethinker @ July 31 2009,10:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2009,10:05) Hi TT,
Where is it clearly taught in scripture that God became humble and even became a man?
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is spoken of in Phil 2
Do you have clear teaching for us??
You're in denial Nick. It does NOT say Jesus Christ the Son of God in Philippians 2. It says that Jesus Christ existed in God's form and made Himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant and became in the likeness of men. It's clear Nick! And the way you anti-trinitarians are treating the exaltation of Jesus exposes your errors.thinker
thinker………If you care to look it up , you will find it says (existing) present tense, not existed past tense, as written, and while your are at it look up what (form or God means) If He were a GOD he would not be a (FORM) would He , He would BE GOD. But scripture says (FORM) that my friend means (IMAGE) an Image IS THE form of what it is reflecting , but is never the object it reflects. Quite grabbing for straws, Come on thinker, come out of that false Trinitarian teaching Brother.peace and love to you and yours thinker……………….gene
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