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Hi KW,
Externals matter to the politically correct but God evaded their controversies.
It mattered that the Law was seen to be respected if more converts could be gained into the new covenant.[1Cor 9.20]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,14:24) Hi KW,
Externals matter to the politically correct but God evaded their controversies.
It mattered that the Law was seen to be respected if more converts could be gained into the new covenant.[1Cor 9.20]
So according to you Jesus lied when he stated not a stitch would be removed from the Law?Please clarify this matter since that does not sound correct.
The Gospel Truth:
What would we have if we took away all religious ideas and all religious doctrines established over the years from the New Testament Gospels, the first four books of the new testament. These four books are called the Gospel or good news from God. This was a huge change in religious history. This event had been prophesied for thousands of years. It was referred to as the end of the (religious) world. Also the end of time came with the eternal word of God in Christ.
At this time the earth was in darkness. Sin prevailed because the truth of God was nearly lost. The lost sheep of the house of Israel would once again hear the truth of God but would deny and reject the way of faith to God.
Each of these four books looks at the gospel from a slightly different angle than the other. In general they review the coming of John the Baptist(cousin of Jesus) and the ministry of Jesus that closely followed.
What was the purpose of John’s ministry? The scriptures say he was to prepare the way of the lord and make straight his paths. John was a plain individual revealing no pomp or show about himself. He had no guile and seemed to be just what he was, a God-fearing man of truth. His part of the New Covenant was preparing the people for a new way of thinking about God. Neither John nor Jesus were at any time attempting to teach people how to live their lives on this earth. They were only teaching how to find God and what God has provided in the New Covenant. There was no Baptism in the old covenant. John used water Baptism to show the people physically what was about to happen spiritually (in the mind). Most of the people John was preaching to considered themselves apart from or un-chosen by God(gentiles). They were in sin or wrong thinking, error of thinking. They were not separated from God any more than the Jews or anyone else. Yet they believed they were apart from God which is an illusion of separation in the mind. God is everywhere and in everyone. Where would he go? Your actions do not separate you from a God that is everywhere and in everything. He has also offered you unconditional love. Only your powerful mind can delude you into believing that God is not with you and/or doesn’t love you for whatever action you believe has separated you. This is a lie! God will never leave you. Gods love is unconditional. Nothing you can do could separate you from God in truth. Yet if you choose to believe a lie of separation then to you there is separation. So, John brought forth water Baptism to produce a physical picture of the washing away of sin or (wrong thinking of separation from God). Baptism was a symbolic cleansing of the wrong thinking of mankind about God. It also served as a picture in the mind of one’s death (to the old covenant) and resurrection to new life in Christ. You might call it a brain washing. The washing out of the mind all of the old covenant, ritualistic services to God. Laws, church doctrines, rules, rituals, sacrifices, physical temple building worship and all man made doctrines that failed to bring perfection and union to the worshipers. This symbolic mind washing also would also be an example of cleansing any willing individual of all error of thought about being in sin or having sin or being separated from God for any reason. It was a Baptism of repentance or turning away from the way you were believing in sin order to receive the full remission of sin through Jesus. (Remission: forgiveness, pardon, release of debt, abating of pain, disease or sin). The act of Baptism or submerging a person underwater signifying their death and raising them up to a new way of life in Christ symbolized the cleansing away of the old, in preparation for the New Covenant way of God. Perfection by faith as it was in the beginning. The first became last as the last was the first. Sinless perfection by faith!!
The New Covenant(spirit truth) was replacing the old covenant(physical works doctrines). The New Covenant is built on spiritual promises of God that a person will either believe and be part of or reject and live apart from God. The promises are for all, equally, who will accept it by believing. No more Jew or Gentile or male of female or any form of separation from God. One God, One calling. All are called, few people accepted the change. Those that loved the agreement of men more than the truth of God remained in the old laws to try to get or be perfect. If anyone tells you today that they are still under the law they have followed man and rejected God’s deliverance from the law. The old Temple way to worship God was in darkness and sin. The new Spirit way to God was at hand. Believing what God says through his messenger son, Jesus. Jesus moved forward in his ministry and began to establish the truth of God in the New Covenant of love.
John knew this was the one with the truth of God/spirit to immerse people’s minds. John said the greater Baptism of Spirit words of God through Jesus was at hand. Jesus said my words are spirit and life (John6:63).
Jesus was the end of the world. Jesus was the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Jesus was a propitiation for sin of the whole world (John 2:2). Jesus was the end of time spoken of by the prophets. Jesus was the end of the world spoken of by the prophets (Eph.2:10)Jesus brought the eternal spirit to man. The word of truth from God is forever. Jesus set up the eternal Kingdom of God that will rule forever within each human being that believes(Luke 17:21). Jesus teaches the new eternal peace with God for any/or all those who accept and believe.
Death to the old sinful, physical way, and re-birth to new sin-free life in Christ. Each time a person accepts the new truth and believes it is for him a new creature is born of the spirit words of God through Jesus (John 1:45). The truth had come. Jesus was to show us the new way to God. The law and the prophets were until John, since then the Kingdom of God is preached (Luke 16:16)!
(Luke 17:21)(Luke 18:31)(Matt.11:12)(Gal.3:19)!
The word of God (Jesus) shall judge in this last day(now) (John 12:48).The Kingdom is within each person(Luke 17:21). Being created of Spirit is hearing the spirit words of Jesus and accepting them personally by believing. This is the spiritual re-birth, being born again or recreated by spirit truth of God. When a person partakes of God’s spirit words they become one with him. They get married. They become bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh. You are what you eat! In marriage two are one. These spirit words of Jesus, planted in the heart, grow up within a human unto a completed son of God.
No doctrines, no other writings by Paul or Peter. No distractions of religion or religious doctrines, no days or weeks, months, Sabbaths, moon-days, bowing, kneeling, standing, sitting, loud, soft, no tithes, no offerings no sacrifices unto God, just pure Jesus the Christ teaching the way of the father in truth to be believed or not. Life and death, your choice which to believe, all by faith, no works unto God. God, Jesus, the whole Spirit dwell within the person who accepts that as truth. They are not off somewhere waiting to come back to war, kill or any other thing. The all is within you. Jesus is here, now. You cannot believe he needs to come back if you believe he is here! He is here in spirit and in body. We are his body. We believe to receive his spirit. The baptism of the holy spirit is a work in progress not a one time affair. As you consume, eat, partake of spirit of God through the words of Jesus, you become what you eat. Will you put yourself aside and rule your life and those around you with the love of God or tell them they are sinners!
The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither will they say, l
o here or lo there! For behold the kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21).
The spirit of truth is with you but will be in you (John 14:17).
We are cleansed by the words and teachings of Jesus (John15:2).
We are ordained by Jesus(John 15:16).
We are sanctified by the word of Jesus(John 17:17).
The word of God will judge us in the last day(now)(John 12:48).
The lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world(John 1:29).
Jesus manifest to take away our sin (1John 3:5).
The prophets and the law prophesied until John(Matt. 11:13).
The Law was until the seed (Jesus) should come(Gal.3:19).
Jesus did not come to stay in the law or the prophets, he came to fulfill them– (Matt. 5:17) FULFILL: strongs concordance, “pleroo”, to accomplish, satisfy, complete, end or finish a period or task—
The law was until the seed (Jesus) should come (Gal 3:19).
There was no justification for man under the law (Rom 7:8).
We are no longer under the law but under grace. No wrath, just favor for all(Rom 6:14&15).
The law and the prophets were until John (Luke 16:16).
By the deeds of the law shall no man be justified(Rom 3:20).
Apart from the law sin is dead (Rom 7:8).
Awaken to your righteousness and you have no sin (1Cor.15:34).
(1John 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin!
Jesus was manifest to take away our sin (1John 3:5).
One who is righteous has no sin. Righteousness is by faith, believing God has cleansed us through Jesus words. Righteous anger would be angry with someone who defies God and says they are not or you are not sin free, cleansed, and righteous.
Temptation is never what to do or not do, temptation is whether to believe either choice is evil! If something you do makes you feel good that’s what I would choose to do. If something you do makes you feel bad, I wouldn’t choose that to experience. Always choose peace and that is what you will experience. Always choose love and that is what you will experience.
God Bless any and all who read this paper. In love together, TKTK
You say; “These four books are called the Gospel or good news from God. This was a huge change in religious history. This event had been prophesied for thousands of years. It was referred to as the end of the (religious) world.”
As you probably know, the four gospels, although written by four writers specifically to four different groups of people, hold basically the same information, because, they are a recap of Jesus' life here on earth.
The appearing of the Messiah, Jesus, was prophesied, but not a change or the end of religious history; look around, has anything changed, or ended?You say,”Also the end of time came with the eternal word of God in Christ.”
What end, of what time?
You say, “Sin prevailed because the truth of God was nearly lost. The lost sheep of the house of Israel would once again hear the truth of God but would deny and reject the way of faith to God.”
The Israelites were given the law, they had to obey the letter, there was no faith in that; it was to lead them to Christ, which they did not recognize, and therefore rejected him.
The promise of blessings were given to Abraham, consequently to his descendants, the Israelites; if they obeyed the law, which they did not, which resulted in their punishments.
Gentiles, all none Israelites, not only were not included in the promises, they also had no understanding of the true God.
If you don't believe that sin separates you from God , read Is. 59:2.
Unconditional love of God is offered in Jesus Christ to those who in faith in Jesus have repented of their sins. So, be careful when you call the word of God a lie, you may be sincere in what you believe, but you could be sincerely wrong.
Baptism will not cleanse you of wrong thinking, nor will it keep you from wrong thinking; baptism is an outward sign in your faith in Jesus Christ, it is your faith in Christ that will cleanse you of your sins, but even your faith in Christ will not stop you from sinning; read Rom. 7:14-25.
You should be very careful what you're teaching, here is something to think about, 2 Cor. 11:13-15.
Quoting scripture is one thing, understanding, and teaching the meaning of them quite another.
No need to go into any more of your post.Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2009,20:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,14:24) Hi KW,
Externals matter to the politically correct but God evaded their controversies.
It mattered that the Law was seen to be respected if more converts could be gained into the new covenant.[1Cor 9.20]
So according to you Jesus lied when he stated not a stitch would be removed from the Law?Please clarify this matter since that does not sound correct.
Hi KW,
Nothing is to be removed from the Law but the schoolmaster is to lead Jewish men to Christ and freedom is the promise in Christ. That does not mean the Law has disappeared.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,23:39) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2009,20:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,14:24) Hi KW,
Externals matter to the politically correct but God evaded their controversies.
It mattered that the Law was seen to be respected if more converts could be gained into the new covenant.[1Cor 9.20]
So according to you Jesus lied when he stated not a stitch would be removed from the Law?Please clarify this matter since that does not sound correct.
Hi KW,
Nothing is to be removed from the Law but the schoolmaster is to lead Jewish men to Christ and freedom is the promise in Christ. That does not mean the Law has disappeared.
What you seem to be inferring is not what Jesus taught.Matthew 5:18(KJV) reads:
Quote For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth have not passed and therefore not one jot or one title has passed from the law.
Paul did state this:
Galatians 3:21-27(KJV) reads:
Quote Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
If by doing so he was teaching that others to break even one of the commandments of the Law of Mosses then Jesus states.
Matthew 5:19(KJV) reads:
Quote Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So is it more likely you misunderstand Paul or that he will be “called the least in the kingdom of heaven”.
21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Matthew 20:22-2435And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mark 10:39-41This post points out two things A. The glory Jesus spoke of is a glory “prepared” for him from the foundation of the world if he was simply going back to God, he would of course know who would be to his left and his right.
B. Since he cannot decide who is to his left or right he also is showing that he cannot be God as he would have the authority to decide and yet this is Jesus talking about his position in heaven.
Hi KW,
The Law has not passed.
Seeking the law of love is not rebellion against the Law but fulfilling it.Hi KW,
We are gentiles and cannot take the Jewish law to ourselves-for us there is only the new wine.[1Cor10]
A wise storeman can take good things both old and new out of his storehouse[Mt]
The old wine is usually preferred by those who can choose.Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,02:06) TK You say; “These four books are called the Gospel or good news from God. This was a huge change in religious history. This event had been prophesied for thousands of years. It was referred to as the end of the (religious) world.”
As you probably know, the four gospels, although written by four writers specifically to four different groups of people, hold basically the same information, because, they are a recap of Jesus' life here on earth.
The appearing of the Messiah, Jesus, was prophesied, but not a change or the end of religious history; look around, has anything changed, or ended?
You say,”Also the end of time came with the eternal word of God in Christ.”What end, of what time?
You say, “Sin prevailed because the truth of God was nearly lost. The lost sheep of the house of Israel would once again hear the truth of God but would deny and reject the way of faith to God.”
The Israelites were given the law, they had to obey the letter, there was no faith in that; it was to lead them to Christ, which they did not recognize, and therefore rejected him.
The promise of blessings were given to Abraham, consequently to his descendants, the Israelites; if they obeyed the law, which they did not, which resulted in their punishments.
Gentiles, all none Israelites, not only were not included in the promises, they also had no understanding of the true God.
If you don't believe that sin separates you from God , read Is. 59:2.
Unconditional love of God is offered in Jesus Christ to those who in faith in Jesus have repented of their sins. So, be careful when you call the word of God a lie, you may be sincere in what you believe, but you could be sincerely wrong.
Baptism will not cleanse you of wrong thinking, nor will it keep you from wrong thinking; baptism is an outward sign in your faith in Jesus Christ, it is your faith in Christ that will cleanse you of your sins, but even your faith in Christ will not stop you from sinning; read Rom. 7:14-25.
You should be very careful what you're teaching, here is something to think about, 2 Cor. 11:13-15.
Quoting scripture is one thing, understanding, and teaching the meaning of them quite another.
No need to go into any more of your post.Georg
Glad you answered that post. I did not feel like wading thru all of it.If Christ preexisted in a conscious form prior to his birth on Earth, what happened to the personality and memories of that Christ?
If Christ retained the memories from his former life that would give him a gigantic advantage over mankind. In fact it would make him none human. I have no memories from a prior life to help me make decisions. How nice it would be to have existed in heaven before I was born on Earth. I doubt any of us would have a problem walking with God if that were the case.
Preexistent memories would mean that Christ was not tempted like other men.
Preexistent memories means that he is fundamentally different then other men, even though scripture says he was made like his brothers in EVERY way.
A preexistent Christ would draw everything that Christ did into question. What are we capable of imitating and what can we not duplicate.
If he is 100% God and 100% man which of the things that he did were because He is God and which are because He was man? I have discovered no key to guide me on what things I can become like him in. Did Christ heal because he was God or because he was man? Did Christ overcome sin because He was God or man? Did Christ become one with his father because He was God or man?In my years of studying this subject I have never seen any who believe in a
God/man or preexistent Christ that have followed their theory to it’s end conclusions.One important aspect of Christ calling is to be our example. If He is God or has any advantage over the rest of humanity then that example is invalid. I can never be a God and I did not have the advantage of a preexistent life in heaven, so how can I really be like Christ.
The all consuming goal of my life is to become like Christ and to follow in his ways. I have no desire to tickle my mind with idle philosophy and doctrines that deter from that goal. The doctrine of the preexistent Christ does not work within the plan of God. It is counter productive and bears no fruit.Hi martian,
Truth does not have to be understandable or logical to be truth.
It is the wisdom of God after all.[2Peter 3 ,Lk11]Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The Law has not passed.
Seeking the law of love is not rebellion against the Law but fulfilling it.I agree!
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote We are gentiles and cannot take the Jewish law to ourselves-for us there is only the new wine.[1Cor10]
You have two arguments here whether you realize it or not. The new covenant/ old covenant is an interesting issue to explore in itself and answers the question about “how” one seeks to please God. The Law of Mosses answers the question of what God instructs us to do. There are also Jesus’ teachings which instructs us how to enter and adhere to the new covenant.
I believe that you should study the Law of Moses which has different requirements for the Gentiles and for the Jews. Except for a few the ones that apply to the Gentiles can be called righteous requirements. The few exception should also be examines as I have no authority to judge the Law.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote A wise storeman can take good things both old and new out of his storehouse[Mt]
A person who knows the law is able to add new knowledge to his old by being instructed in the new covenant.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The old wine is usually preferred by those who can choose.
I am not sure what Jesus was speaking of in Luke 5:39 as it seems he is stating the old covenant is preferable to the new and that does not seem correct.
Hi KW,
Old wine is better and those Jews who have been reborn from above who are accustomed to living by restrictions find it easier to seek to obey them rather than taking the courage to let the Spirit of God speak and act through them, teaching them from the OT and the NT and leading them in ways of righteousness.We too can learn from the OT but it was never our master.
Rom 10, Gal3Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2009,04:48) Hi KW,
Old wine is better and those Jews who have been reborn from above who are accustomed to living by restrictions find it easier to seek to obey them rather than taking the courage to let the Spirit of God speak and act through them, teaching them from the OT and the NT and leading them in ways of righteousness.We too can learn from the OT but it was never our master.
Rom 10, Gal3
There were some Gentiles who adhered to the few restraints the Law of Mosses placed on them.Jonah preached to Gentiles.
I believe that we are under the new Covenant in
Luke 22:20
..”This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”
The Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandment in
Math.22:37Jesus said to him” You shall Love the LORD with all of your Heart and all of your Soul, and all of your mind.”
verse 38
This is the first and great commandment.
verse 39
And the second is like it:” You shall Love your neighbor as yourself.”
verse 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law, n the prophets.”
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Nov. 11 2009,10:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2009,04:48) Hi KW,
Old wine is better and those Jews who have been reborn from above who are accustomed to living by restrictions find it easier to seek to obey them rather than taking the courage to let the Spirit of God speak and act through them, teaching them from the OT and the NT and leading them in ways of righteousness.We too can learn from the OT but it was never our master.
Rom 10, Gal3
There were some Gentiles who adhered to the few restraints the Law of Mosses placed on them.Jonah preached to Gentiles.
Hi KW,
There are always a few exceptions.Of course Jesus pre-existed! the Bible tells us that Jesus was more than a prophet, a good teacher, or a godly man.
the Bible says; Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” the Jews’ reaction was “‘We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:33). They understood Jesus’ statement. Jesus never said to them “I did not claim to be God.” John 8:58 “‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’” Again, the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Old Testament name for God –I AM(Exodus 3:14). Why else would the Jews want to stone Him? if He had not said something they believed to be blasphemous.
John 1;1“the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” clearly says that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas called Him “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus didnt correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1;1) Old Testament shows His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
If Jesus is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. Only God could pay such a penalty. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. And he also had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ, our only salvation. Colossians tells us all things were created by Jesus.By Him and for hIm. He was before all things. Right there shows you He pre-existed. Yet Gen. tells us God created the heavens and the earth!God Bless You all!
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