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Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,03:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all of sinned ad fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
If you knew that you came from heaven or had experianced heaven before you were born on the Earth would that give you an advantage over those that have not had that experiance? Any advantage you give Christ over us makes it less likely that we can become like him. It brings into question our following him in any way. It can always be said that christ overcame the world, was perfected did miracles and overcame sin because of his prexistance and knowledge not available to us.
No doubt Christ had understanding of the scriptures that others did not have. If you had never sinned and had unlimited access to your Father without sin blocking the way, I suspect you would have insight others would not have. seondly all young men in Israel were taught the scriptures from an early age.
John 17 says the glory was there not specifically that Christ was there. If I set aside an inheritance for my children it can be said they had that money before I died, but they did not literally have it.Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,03:52) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,03:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all of sinned ad fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
If you knew that you came from heaven or had experianced heaven before you were born on the Earth would that give you an advantage over those that have not had that experiance? Any advantage you give Christ over us makes it less likely that we can become like him. It brings into question our following him in any way. It can always be said that christ overcame the world, was perfected did miracles and overcame sin because of his prexistance and knowledge not available to us.
No doubt Christ had understanding of the scriptures that others did not have. If you had never sinned and had unlimited access to your Father without sin blocking the way, I suspect you would have insight others would not have. seondly all young men in Israel were taught the scriptures from an early age.
John 17 says the glory was there not specifically that Christ was there. If I set aside an inheritance for my children it can be said they had that money before I died, but they did not literally have it.
Martin He was in Human form just like us. Not sinning in Human form is that easy? I don't think so. That IMO is how Jesus was like us, He was in Human Form. It is the flesh body that sin's. The mind is willing I say, but the body is weak. Especially when your young, like Jesus was. My Husband is 72 and I am 71, so the body is not sinning a much as when we were young. Do I make sense to you, I hope.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2009,22:48) Quote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2009,11:44) Irene wrote: Quote I believe that Jesus preexisted and I have proven so by Scriptures.
I suggest you consider thinking more like a monotheistic Jew and less like a polytheistic Greek when interpreting Paul’s writings.
Scripture quoted by Irene:
Quote Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. verse 16
For instance “over” is not a synonym of the word “of”.
Scripture quoted by Irene:
Quote For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that is on earth, visible and invisible………
verse 17
And He is before all things, and in him all things consist.This passage gives you more support but your chose interpretation contradicts scripture that states Adam came first.
Romans 5L14(NIV) reads:
Quote Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
So it is evident that you disagree with Paul who taught that Adam cam first.
I could address the rest but I believe that one contradiction is enough for you to find a way to address at the present.
My Husband looked up Col. 1:15 in His Rye Study Bible and it says
Col 1:15 “Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OFOFOFOF ALL CREATION.” Not over. I don't know why the KJ did. But in Rev. it did not , it said ofRev. 3:14 ..”These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF OFOF THE CREATION OF GOD.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and was God.
Also Hebrew 1:8 God calls Jesus God. Read it yourself.
And are you going to call Jesus a name and a liar? Because in John 17:5 He said this.
” And now, O Father, glory Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with you before the World was.”
And then He went back to Heaven with His Father where He had been before.Also I am not interpreting the Scriptures. I write them down the way they say. That my Fried is not interpreting to me.
Labaling people has never set to good with me. And that should never be done as a Christian. Even if I would interpret, which I did not.
But I guess from certain people you cant expect anything else.
As far as Adam being first, yes He was a Human man first, before Jesus became a Human. Adam never preexisted did He?Also God so loved the World that He send His only begotten Son into the world that through Him we might be saveth.
Where did God send His Son from?One more thing, I did find the preexisting tread that was done before, it is in Truth or Tradition-Preexisting. t8 has a post there and others too, over 500posts. Some agree and others do not.
Wer hat dier uber die leber gelaufen. Ein mensh der nichts anderes weiss muss so was machen.
Guten Abend, Irene
Hi Irene,I see you refuse to be labeled too.
Ed J
Ed! I don't want to ignore you, I had to think about this. kerwin is really a nice fellow. Sometimes when we trying to understand some one's else's post, we or at least I am lost with the Words we want to use.
Of course labeling one Gnostic etc. is always a way out. I don't necessary enjoy being called that but here on this site, we should not, but in certain circumstances one might do so.
God will always straightens things out. So I have no bad feelings against Kerwin.
I have been called worse then that. The guy is gone. So like I said, if you misuse this site it will catch up with you. You seen them tiles, right.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 07 2009,22:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
Luke 2:52(NIV) wrote:Quote And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,04:03) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,03:52) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,03:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all of sinned ad fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
If you knew that you came from heaven or had experianced heaven before you were born on the Earth would that give you an advantage over those that have not had that experiance? Any advantage you give Christ over us makes it less likely that we can become like him. It brings into question our following him in any way. It can always be said that christ overcame the world, was perfected did miracles and overcame sin because of his prexistance and knowledge not available to us.
No doubt Christ had understanding of the scriptures that others did not have. If you had never sinned and had unlimited access to your Father without sin blocking the way, I suspect you would have insight others would not have. seondly all young men in Israel were taught the scriptures from an early age.
John 17 says the glory was there not specifically that Christ was there. If I set aside an inheritance for my children it can be said they had that money before I died, but they did not literally have it.
Martin He was in Human form just like us. Not sinning in Human form is that easy? I don't think so. That IMO is how Jesus was like us, He was in Human Form. It is the flesh body that sin's. The mind is willing I say, but the body is weak. Especially when your young, like Jesus was. My Husband is 72 and I am 71, so the body is not sinning a much as when we were young. Do I make sense to you, I hope.
Peace and Love Irene
so Jesus was only in the form of humanity? That makes him nonhuman. We are not in the form of humanity we are actually human. Jesus must be like us or his example is invalid for us.
Is the sin of pride in the body? How about lust of the mind? How about envy. All of these are sins that are generated in the mind and soul of a person. They are as active at 4 as at 84.
To what ever degree you make Christ different then us to the same degree you make us unable to become like him.
Perhaps you do not believe that Christ is our example or that we can really be like him?Quote (martian @ Nov. 07 2009,09:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Hello Martian,
You ask so many questions. What if the answers to those questions were:Quote If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Possible answer: The Father kept His memories from Him so that He could accomplish His purpose in Him and restored His memories little by little.
Quote Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary? I don't understand the question.
Quote secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us? Possible answer: There was no advantage given Christ because of His preexistance because He had no memory of a prior existence and He had given up His supernatural abilities to come as a baby.
Quote Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? Possible answer: No, Christ's pre-existence did not influence his ability to be perfected.
Quote If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Possible answer: We don't accomplish these things with or without His pre-existence. He accomplished things for us and we are holding on to his shirt tails with our very life. We utterly depend on Him and His accomplishments and His God and Father for our redemption and righteousness and for our right to become children of God.
Martian, if all those answers that I have suggested were possible, would it make a difference to you?
LU
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2009,04:45) Quote (martian @ Nov. 07 2009,09:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Hello Martian,
You ask so many questions. What if the answers to those questions were:Quote If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Possible answer: The Father kept His memories from Him so that He could accomplish His purpose in Him and restored His memories little by little.
Quote Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary? I don't understand the question.
Quote secondly was there any advantage given christ because of his preexistance? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us? Possible answer: There was no advantage given Christ because of His preexistance because He had no memory of a prior existence and He had given up His supernatural abilities to come as a baby.
Quote Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? Possible answer: No, Christ's pre-existence did not influence his ability to be perfected.
Quote If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance? Possible answer: We don't accomplish these things with or without His pre-existence. He accomplished things for us and we are holding on to his shirt tails with our very life. We utterly depend on Him and His accomplishments and His God and Father for our redemption and righteousness and for our right to become children of God.
Martian, if all those answers that I have suggested were possible, would it make a difference to you?
LU
Kathi! Hi, how are you and yours? Listen I don't agree with you here, I believe that Jesus knew where e came from because of this Scripture in John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” The rest of your post is great and I certainly agree with that.
Yes, Martian does ask Questions and that is good. We need to prove all things, right.
say Hello to your guys and girl.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,04:28) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,04:03) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,03:52) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,03:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all of sinned ad fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
If you knew that you came from heaven or had experienced heaven before you were born on the Earth would that give you an advantage over those that have not had that experience? Any advantage you give Christ over us makes it less likely that we can become like him. It brings into question our following him in any way. It can always be said that Christ overcame the world, was perfected did miracles and overcame sin because of his pre existence and knowledge not available to us.
No doubt Christ had understanding of the scriptures that others did not have. If you had never sinned and had unlimited access to your Father without sin blocking the way, I suspect you would have insight others would not have. secondly all young men in Israel were taught the scriptures from an early age.
John 17 says the glory was there not specifically that Christ was there. If I set aside an inheritance for my children it can be said they had that money before I died, but they did not literally have it.
Martin He was in Human form just like us. Not sinning in Human form is that easy? I don't think so. That IMO is how Jesus was like us, He was in Human Form. It is the flesh body that sin's. The mind is willing I say, but the body is weak. Especially when your young, like Jesus was. My Husband is 72 and I am 71, so the body is not sinning a much as when we were young. Do I make sense to you, I hope.
Peace and Love Irene
so Jesus was only in the form of humanity? That makes him nonhuman. We are not in the form of humanity we are actually human. Jesus must be like us or his example is invalid for us.
Is the sin of pride in the body? How about lust of the mind? How about envy. All of these are sins that are generated in the mind and soul of a person. They are as active at 4 as at 84.
To what ever degree you make Christ different then us to the same degree you make us unable to become like him.
Perhaps you do not believe that Christ is our example or that we can really be like him?
Martian! I know how hard it is to understand Jesus preexisting. Even when we have a memory of something good, when Satan comes along and temps us, like He did with Jesus, we are not as strong as He was. Growing up in Germany after the war, we were hungry for some time and my Stepfather went and stole food at night. I also don't know when it was when Jesus knew where He came from, so Kathi could be half right. Kathi if you are reading this, I am laughing.
This is really a hard question to answer Martian. We just have to except the way we know now. IMO Maybe in the near future God will reveal it and we will see it differently. As fr a ever being like Jesus, IMO it is only part possble. We will always have our Human nature until we die an become a Spirit Being. IMO BTW did you look at t8 post yet?
Peace and Love IreneQuote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,04:28) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,04:03) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,03:52) Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,03:42) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,01:57) If Christ preexisted in a form that was conscious and capable of action and thought, what happened to his memories of that time? Was that Christ killed in favor of the one born to Mary?
secondly was there any advantage given Christ because of his preexistence? If so, how can we become like one that has an advantage not available to us?
Martin I thought about that too, when somebody told me about it. However, if you remember Jesus went into the Temple and taught at age 12. Were the Pharisee's not astonished that He knew the Scriptures like He did? Also it says that all of sinned ad fallen short of the glory of God. I believe He knew where He came from. How else could He say what He did in
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory we had before the world was.”
Also He did not sinned and IMO He knew what was at stake if He did.
t8 has a good post that He made in the Truth or Tradition Tread under Preexisting. You might want to look it up.
Peace and Love Irene
If you knew that you came from heaven or had experienced heaven before you were born on the Earth would that give you an advantage over those that have not had that experience? Any advantage you give Christ over us makes it less likely that we can become like him. It brings into question our following him in any way. It can always be said that Christ overcame the world, was perfected did miracles and overcame sin because of his pre existence and knowledge not available to us.
No doubt Christ had understanding of the scriptures that others did not have. If you had never sinned and had unlimited access to your Father without sin blocking the way, I suspect you would have insight others would not have. secondly all young men in Israel were taught the scriptures from an early age.
John 17 says the glory was there not specifically that Christ was there. If I set aside an inheritance for my children it can be said they had that money before I died, but they did not literally have it.
Martin He was in Human form just like us. Not sinning in Human form is that easy? I don't think so. That IMO is how Jesus was like us, He was in Human Form. It is the flesh body that sin's. The mind is willing I say, but the body is weak. Especially when your young, like Jesus was. My Husband is 72 and I am 71, so the body is not sinning a much as when we were young. Do I make sense to you, I hope.
Peace and Love Irene
so Jesus was only in the form of humanity? That makes him nonhuman. We are not in the form of humanity we are actually human. Jesus must be like us or his example is invalid for us.
Is the sin of pride in the body? How about lust of the mind? How about envy. All of these are sins that are generated in the mind and soul of a person. They are as active at 4 as at 84.
To what ever degree you make Christ different then us to the same degree you make us unable to become like him.
Perhaps you do not believe that Christ is our example or that we can really be like him?
Martian! I know how hard it is to understand Jesus preexisting. Even when we have a memory of something good, when Satan comes along and temps us, like He did with Jesus, we are not as strong as He was. Growing up in Germany after the war, we were hungry for some time and my Stepfather went and stole food at night.
This is really a hard question to answer Martian. We just have to except the way we know now. IMO Maybe in the near future God will reveal it and we will see it differently. As for us ever being like Jesus, IMO it is only part possble. We will always have our Human nature until we die and become a Spirit Being. IMO BTW did you look at t8 post yet?
Peace and Love IreneHi All
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failingsQuote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failingsQuote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life!Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“!
Did he have an advantage over us?
You bet he did!
For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested!
All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,06:36) Hi All John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really accured”.
When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess
Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!
To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!
The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!
John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?WJ
How is it said that Jesus “Increased” in favor of God and men?“Jesus increased in wisdom, and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52).
If he pre-existed as a pre-eminent being how could he grow in favor with God if he was the being which through all things were literally created?
“When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, WHICH SHALL PROCEED OUT OF THY BOWELS, and I will establish his kingdom for ever. I WILL BE HIS FATHER, and he SHALL BE My son” (2 Sam. 7:12-14).
The prophecy relates to Christ, as the New Testament comment upon it makes abundantly clear (see Luke 1:32-33; Hebrews 1:5), and with that clearly established, note well the future tense used in relation to him. God says: “I WILL BE his Father,” he “SHALL BE My son.” If Jesus were already in existence, should not God have said: “I am his Father,” “he is My son”? Mary was told:
“He shall be (not is!) great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Luke 1:32-33).
These words of the angel Gabriel state that Jesus “SHALL BE called the Son of the Highest,” and he shall reign on the throne of “his father David.” Can these expressions apply to one already in existence?
But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?
These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17).
But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn.
For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:
“Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!”
Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.
Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10).
These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded:
“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).
This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.
The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence.
His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:
“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).
The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”
God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45). Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.
As it is written my word shall not come back to me void
The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failingsQuote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life!Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“!
Did he have an advantage over us?
You bet he did!
For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested!
All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all!
WJ
He had no advantage over Adam and thus is called the 2nd Adam. Adam was formed without a sinful nature and actually so are all humans. If Jesus was tempted then sin was in him and he overcame sin. There can be no temptation without sin notice the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted with evil.Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:12-14Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:25) God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin
So you admit when Jesus said he descended from heaven he was claiming to be God?How True!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:30) http://cdelph.org/jesus.html The sight and post above is proof that men who know nothing of the Hebrew or Greek set out to make themselves prophets of their own and speak things that are not true and contrary to the clear teachings of Jesus!
WJ
“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).How do you understand this verse?
If he was always the firstborn of creation why is God saying he will make him His firstborn?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2009,07:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 07 2009,15:01) Quote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
Exactly! It seems to me Pre-existence is most important to those who want to dehumanize Jesus and therefore justify their failingsQuote (martian @ Nov. 08 2009,02:02) Did Christ's preexistance in any way influence his ability to be perfected? How about to overcome sin or heal or do other miracles? If so how do we accomplish these things without the influence of preexistance?
We have the same Spirit Jesus had. So therefore your point is fallacious because you and I still have sin and can never be what Jesus was in this life!Jesus had no sin and never did sin. Why? Because of who he was and where he came from he had the Spirit “Without measure“!
Did he have an advantage over us?
You bet he did!
For it is through Jesus that the works of the devil are destroyed and for that purpose he was manifested!
All those who serve Jesus as just a mere man are putting their trust in the arm of flesh and therfore are not serving God at all!
WJ
Wow, we agree on something. Yes, Jesus was Human, but knew where He came from,
Peace and Love Irene
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