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Thank you David for your response. I did not really believe it would make you stumble (lol). You are strong in your faith, what concerns me is where your faith is placed. Obviously one of us is wrong on each of the multiple issues we've debated, may the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth.
Just so you know I am not ignoring you on those other threads but I stop posting when we're at the point where we're just defending positions, further discussion would only lead to arguments. If you would ever have any questions however I will be happy to help if I can.
Wm
My earlier post
What I was saying, and do believe, is that I can know that I'm saved but if your doctrine was true I couldn't beQuote
MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”Discounting you and speaking generally, there are “many” who truly believe with all their heart that they are saved. And yet, they aren't. They may even have “powerful works” behind them. All I'm saying is that you “know” you are saved. A lot of people “know” they are saved, but are clearly not.
Yes there will be many who will feel they have earned their way to heaven but don't really know God. However I believe scripture is also clear that those with a relationship with God can still be confident otherwise weren't Paul, Peter, James, and John being presumptuous in much of scripture. I do not read any doubt in Paul's writings on his eternal standing prior to his death.
Quote
No, nor do I Seekingtruth.But I don't read any doubt in those that are to say: “Lord, Lord…” either.
I would like to make one last point, you have to ignore the scriptures to believe you can be saved by anything short of trusting in what Christ did for us. Those who put their trust in what they accomplish no matter how marvelous are ignoring the way spelled out for us.
However I do believe that scriptures show that with a relationship with God, we can have confidence. This is what concerns me most with the JW's ,they do many good things , believe good things, and suffer under affliction (although I believe some of it is brought on themselves) but has this taken the place of putting their trust where it must be to be saved (I do agree that I have to endure to the end, but I can know if I was run over by a truck right now I have kept the faith, to this point).
Quote This is what concerns me most with the JW's ,they do many good things , believe good things, and suffer under affliction (although I believe some of it is brought on themselves) but has this taken the place of putting their trust where it must be to be saved (I do agree that I have to endure to the end, but I can know if I was run over by a truck right now I have kept the faith, to this point).
First, I encourage you to buy reflective bright clothing. Because no one wants that.
Second, I’d like you to expand on what you’ve said a couple times now, how we bring some of this affliction on ourselves. It’s true that we do bring a lot or most of it on ourselves by the things we do. We preach the good news regardless of what humans want or governments want because we place our trust in God’s Word and not man. When the two conflict, we “obey God as ruler, rather than men.” This would be the majority of the persecution we bring on ourselves. But we don’t really bring it on ourselves. We are persecuted for doing something God commands, and often for putting our trust in his Kingdom, rather than looking to human governments and heiling Hitler so to speak. We trust God and His Word. Going back to Nazi Germany, we as a group did not stop preaching, even in the camps. It was partially because of this preaching that we were put in those camps. Actually, by the time the Nazi regime started throwing people in camps, all the prisons in Germany already had witnesses in them for speaking to others about God. Anyway, I was wondering what you meant by this.
I’m sorry to keep coming back to Hitler, but it somewhat bothered me when someone insinutated that the JW’s were no different than other religions with reference to this. There were very very very few Catholics thrown in the camps and these were clergy. MOST of the clergy were telling people to go off and kill the enemy (who by the way, were other Catholics in other lands.) So it was with most everyone. Jehovah’s Witnesses remained united. We remained loyal to God and God’s government and not mans. We stood firm against Nazi assault and didn’t heil hitler, as most did. Whereas others were there because they didn’t want to fight, and knew that what hitler was doing was wrong, we were there because of this and because of our preaching work. Whereas a few from one group or this or that group were there, JW’s were united and all suffered the same. We weren’t killing one another in different lands. We remained loyal to God’s word and trusted God. It was because of this trust that we seemed to flourish in the worst of places. Our spirit wasn’t broken. We as a group wore a purple triangle that distinguished us from others. No other religious group had their own badge, because there were so few of others there.David
2 CORINTHIANS 11:2
“For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ.”REVELATION 19:7
“Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself.”REVELATION 21:9
“And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.””LUKE 22:29
“and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”REVELATION 1:4-6
“John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”REVELATION 5:9-10
“And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.””REVELATION 20:6
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”Hi S. On what you said about knowing you are of the annointed…..
Those who make up the bride of Christ do know. They know with absolute certainty. There is no doubt in their minds.
Imagine a wedding. There is a bride. There are other girls as the maids of honour. Is there any doubt in the brides mind that SHE is the one getting married? No. She knows. I don’t disagree with that.Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2006,01:12) The apostle explained that certain things, such as the eating of meat or vegetables, the observing of certain days as above others, even the eating of meat that had been offered to idols before being put up for regular sale in the marketplaces, were matters of conscience. He wrote: “One man judges one day as above another; another man judges one day as all others; let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God.” Then he summed up his argument by stating the principle: “For the kingdom of God does not mean eating and drinking, but means righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit,” and he concluded: “Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves. But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because he does not eat out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin.”—Ro 14:5, 6, 17, 22, 23; 1Co 10:25-30.
To david (& seekingtruth).Yes the Law is spiritual, I was talking about the ordinances or rules that are physical. Such as eating certain meat, certain cleansing rituals etc. But in the new covenant we are as you say david, told to look at matters as relating to pleasing God, not so much the ritual itself, after all the Pharisees got the ritual part right, yet they needed greater righteousness to enter the Kingdom.
The new covenant is greater for a number of reasons, one being that it is no longer about obeying rules but obeying the conscience and even greater than that, being led by the Spirit of God.
Now regarding holidays (holydays) if a man wants to honour the day his saviour was born on December 25 or 24 as they do in South America, it is not for you or your organisation to judge. If they do so to honour God, then it is pleasing to God. It is when you believe that it is wrong that it becomes sin, so it is sin for you david to honour the day of our saviours birth on those days because your faith is weak in this area. Similarly it is wrong to eat meat if you believe it is wrong and to such they are weak in that area and defiling the conscience willingly is a sin before God.
Now seekingtruth brings up an interesting point. He says should he not celebrate Christmas so that he doesn't offend you.
A good question. First I would like to say the obvious that among believers in the world, if we tried to not offend them all, there wouldn't be anything that we could do. One believer may be offended by music with a drum beat in it, another by eating meat, and another again by not going to Church on Sunday.
So what are we to do?
Well I believe that we should continue to live without offending OUR conscience and by grieving the Spirit. But we should also make special concessions to toward brothers that we do not offend them even in matters where it is OK by new covenant standards.
In the case of offending a JW regarding Christmas, a believer would obviously not wish a JW Merry Christmas for that would be offensive. But to a believer that is not offended it is OK to do so.
So if you wish to eat meat, or celebrate Christmas to honour when our saviour was born, then we are free to do so, but we shouldn't involve a brother who may be offended.
E.g., we know that there must be Christians who are offended by eating meat, so do we give up eating meat. No of course not, we just don't do it in their presence.
Look at it like this. There is probably a believer somewhere in the world who thinks eating vegetables is offensive. Surely there must be at least one. So are we to abstain from eating vegetables and meat for risk of offending people?
Of course not, they never need know about your eating habits.
We are free to eat meet, celebrate Christmas, so long as our hearts are right before God.
If my son chooses to honour my death when I am dead I would be honoured to know that he cared enough to do so. It would please me to know this. Likewise we please God when our hearts are honouring him. There are many ways that people honour God and it is not up to us to tell them that they are wrong because the date is wrong or they aren't wearing a tie, or whatever.
What matters is that people honour him and that in itself please God. We are not to judge them and try to defile their conscience in these matters lest they also sin by doing that which originally pleased God.
HI t8. You write:
Quote Now regarding holidays (holydays) if a man wants to honour the day his saviour was born on December 25 or 24 as they do in South America, it is not for you or your organisation to judge. If they do so to honour God, then it is pleasing to God. It is when you believe that it is wrong that it becomes sin, Many have forgotten that the word “sin” exists and wonder what it is. Just because someone doesn't know they are sinning (falling short or missing the mark of God's glory) doesn't mean they aren't sinning. We are all imperfect and all sin and fall short of the glory of God, a lot.
T8, what if people who don't know any better decide to follow a tradition that is based on sin (idolatry)….such as, let's say, celebrating an ancient Roman pagan holiday…that, oh I don't know, let's call the Roman Saturnalia?
So that's not wrong?
What if they decided to follow the traditions of their fathers without questioning it and celebrated Satan day? Well, as long as they're in ignorance and don't try to look into the meanings of the customs they partake in, their ignorance will save them? Is that what you are saying?As long as they are “honouring God” by following ancient pagan customs?…then, all is well?
I understand how that is a nice way to think, polically correct and such. Doesn't God's opinion and his thoughts matter more than all else?
Wouldn't you want to avoid taking the chance of hurting God or angering him by imitating or copying the ancient pagan customs of people that God clearly hated?
Risky.
God hated what George did. But what George did was a long time ago. So if I dress up like George or do the same things George did, on the same day, God won't mind. Copying the customs God hated is ok???
Quote Similarly it is wrong to eat meat if you believe it is wrong and to such they are weak in that area and defiling the conscience willingly is a sin before God.
If you read all those scriptures again, it becomes clear that Paul was speaking of whether or not to obey the Old covenant, the law with regard to meat. If it stumbled someone, avoid it, was the admonition.Try at least, to look through God's eyes.
Or imagine if I was someone alive back then and knew where all those things came from and why they were practiced and for who they were done and I wanted to become a Christian, but wait, I'm stumbled, because all you “Christians” are practicing paganism. Perhaps you should avoid it. What is some cake or birthday wishes worth, if it stumbles someone?INteresting, I just noticed what you said next:
Quote Now seekingtruth brings up an interesting point. He says should he not celebrate Christmas so that he doesn't offend you. Of course it won't stumble me. I've already stumbled over false religion's thinking–do your own thing, follow your traditions, do what feels right, find your own way, practice whatever, don't look into anything too much, etc.
Quote A good question. First I would like to say the obvious that among believers in the world, if we tried to not offend them all, there wouldn't be anything that we could do. One believer may be offended by music with a drum beat in it, another by eating meat, and another again by not going to Church on Sunday.
Most everyone would never be stumbled by celebrating birthdays, unless they actually researched them and looked into the Bible. Then, maybe.Quote Well I believe that we should continue to live without offending OUR conscience and by grieving the Spirit. But we should also make special concessions to toward brothers that we do not offend them even in matters where it is OK by new covenant standards.
I do not believe this is a new covenant standard of thinking. I believe God has always hated and will always hate idolatry and while those who do those things today don't know where they came from and aren't really committing idolatry, (unless they're so addicted to cake, they make their belly their god) they are immitating or copying or following the tradition of what those people did. Why Oh why would anyone want to do this?Satan rules this world. He's it's god. He's good at what he does. He does it well.
Quote In the case of offending a JW regarding Christmas, a believer would obviously not wish a JW Merry Christmas for that would be offensive. But to a believer that is not offended it is OK to do so.
It's not even really offensive unless done in a mocking way. We're so used to it. But if you know we don't, and say merry Christmas, then this would bother us.Quote So if you wish to eat meat, or celebrate Christmas to honour when our saviour was born, then we are free to do so, but we shouldn't involve a brother who may be offended.
But we still have to obey what the Bible says. This new freedom you speak of is limited by what we know of God. We are not free to “eat meat” if it contains blood. That was expressly forbidden in the Bible. Paul was referring to eating meat that had been used for sacrifice. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat. An analogy could be drawn with whether someone who doens't celebrate halloween could eat chocolate candies that were in a bowl for halloween purposes. Of course they could. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those normal candies. But if that stumbles someone, then don't. Just don't.
And while the Bible says nothing specifically AT ALL about Christmas or Jesus birth and doesn't mention Jesus birth at all or the celebrating of his birth or the command to celebrate it or the date…while it doesn't mention any of these things, we do know other things about God. He hates certain things. We know how he acted toward certain ones who did bad things. If we compare them to our situation, we can discern how God feels about things. It is only He who matters.Quote Look at it like this. There is probably a believer somewhere in the world who thinks eating vegetables is offensive. Surely there must be at least one. So are we to abstain from eating vegetables and meat for risk of offending people?
God Created vegetables. He told us to eat them.
God created the stars. He told us not to worship them.
He told us not to commit idolatry. He told us not to imitate the pagans.Quote We are free to eat meet, celebrate Christmas, so long as our hearts are right before God.
Perhaps we should focus more on God's heart towards us and how he views our actions or non-actions.david
Just thinking about birthdays. Whether you choose to celebrate birthdays or not, you should not talk badly about those who do not.
–It’s a custom originated by worshippers of false gods.
–Nowhere does the Bible say to celebrate birthdays.
–Nowhere do we see the early Christians celebrating birthdays
–Nowhere does God give the impression we should celebrate birthdays, including his Son’s whose birth date is not given.
–In the Bible only two birthdays are mentioned and they were for Evil rulers who executed the righteous at those celebrations.So the safe thing to do, if uncertain would be to reject this celebration that has blood on it, that has a bad pagan history, that is shown in a bad light in the Bible, and that the early Christians rejected because of these things.
You cannot argue with someone who looks at these things and wonders about this tradition of men.JUST FOR THE RECORD, JW’S ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO RECOGNIZE the origins of Birthdays and the Bible principles that apply. The following scripture is one that I have seen in a few of these sites. It seems that God’s people should be separate and distinct from paganism and the customs associated with it.
http://www.thercg.org/articles/abcc.html
Here’s what God commands:“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:2, 3).
After God freed Israel from slavery, He clearly instructed them, “After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein you dwelt, shall you not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, where I bring you, shall you not do: neither shall you walk in their ordinances” (Lev. 18:3). God commanded that they not defile themselves with the practices and customs of the surrounding nations (vs. 24-29).
http://www.triumphpro.com/birthdays_origin.htm
The Surprising Origin of the Custom of Celebrating Birthdays!Where did the universal custom of cele-
brating the day of one's birth originate?
What about birthday parties, cakes, and
candles? What does the Bible say about
celebrating the day of one's birth? You
might be shocked at the answer!William F. Dankenbring
Almost everybody, today, celebrates birthdays. Around the world, friends and relatives hold birthday parties, give gifts to the one being honored, and wish “Happy birthday!” to the one whose birthday is being celebrated. But why?
Where did this universal custom originate? Do you know the answer?
Though you look in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, you will find no mention anywhere of any of the saints of God observing their birthdays. In fact, strange as it may seem to many, even the exact date of the birth of Jesus Christ is NOWHERE REVEALED in Scripture! The universal custom of observing “Christmas” as the birth of Christ, on December 25th, is acknowledged by all the historical authorities as having no basis in actual fact. Jesus Christ was born nowhere near December 25th, in the dead of winter.
If the very day of Jesus' birth is deliberately left out of the Bible, doesn't that fact tell us something? If birthdays should be celebrated, why did God leave the date of His own Son's birth out of Holy Scripture?
The plain truth is that birth day celebrations are only mentioned twice in the Scriptures — both times in reference to customs being observed by unconverted people — a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh, and wicked king Herod!
Notice what happened on these two instances of “birth day celebrations” recorded in the Word of God.
Pharaoh of Egypt
In Genesis we read: “And it came to pass the third day, which was PHARAOH'S BIRTHDAY, that he made a feast (party) unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cupt into Pharaoh's hand: but he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them” (Genesis 40:20-22).
Notice! This was a birthday party, nothing less! It was being observed by a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh — not a man of God. This is the only example of a clear cut birthday celebration in all the Old Testament — and it was being observed by a PAGAN KING!
The Origin of Birthdays
This fact, however, should not be overly surprising. Writes Linda Rannells Lewis in Birthdays, “Birthdays have been celebrated for thousands of years. In early civilizations, where the development of a calendar made an organized reckoning of birth dates possible, the horoscopes of ruling monarchs, their successors and rivals had to be cast with care and birthday omens meticulously examined, for the prospects of the mighty would affect the prospects of the entire society. By the time of Ptolemy V this practice was well established: 'Ptolemy, the ever living, the beloved of Ptah, the son of the two Brother-Gods, was born on the fifth day of the month DIOS, and this day was, in consequence, the beginning of great prosperity and happiness of all living men and women” (p. 12).
Ptolemy V was an ancient Egyptian king. It was common in his day for kings and rulers to have their horoscopes made by astrologers and their birthdays were considered very important omens of the future.
The false science of astrology, of course, makes a great deal out of the positions of the sun, moon and stars at the moment or day of one's birth. Astrology teaches that the position of the sun, moon and stars at the moment of one's birth determines their future destiny, their character, their personality, talents, health, and so forth. They cast “horoscopes,” or “birth charts,” to understand the supposed significance of a person's birthday.
Astrology, as the Word of God plainly shows, is a pagan, false religious deception — a fraud and a mythological pseudo-science.
God Almighty says to the “daughter of Babylon” (Isa. 47:1), the great pagan religious deception which has engulfed the world, “Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the ASTROLOGERS, the star-gazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame…” (Isaiah 47:13-14).
Writes Lewis, in Birthdays, “Birthday celebrations, even at this early stage, were not strictly reserved for the great rulers. Society adapts for its communal use those practices of the elite which it admires and can afford. In the fifth century before Christ, the Greek historian Herodotus, describing the festivals of the Persians, wrote: 'IT IS THEIR CUSTOM TO HONOR THEIR BIRTHDAY ABOVE ALL OTHER DAYS: and on this day they furnish their table in a more plentiful manner than at other times. The rich then produce an ox, a horse, a camel, and an ass, roasted whole in an oven; but the poor produce smaller cattle.”
Lewis continues, “In Egypt households of the same period birthdays were celebrated similarly. A part of the family budget was set aside to buy birthday garlands and animals for sacrifice, just as we might plan to spend a certain sum for balloons, party hats, and an ice cream cake” (pages 12-13).
This author goes on, “Among prosperous Greek families a birth feast, a coming-of-age feast, and feasts after death held on the anniversary of the day of birth were observed, but otherwise there were no annual birthday ceremonials. The birthdays of the immortals were ritually acknowledged once a month, however, the third day of each month being sacred to Athena, Ares, and Saturn, for instance” (ibid.).
The emperors of Rome often
went to extreme in their own birthday celebrations. When the first birthday of Drusilla, the daughter of Caligula, approached, the emperor arranged a party suitable for the infant daughter of a “god” (himself). To celebrate her birthday, two days of horse racing were held, and a ritual slaughter of 300 bears, and 500 various beasts from Libya, in the amphitheater of Taurus, was held.The Command of God
What does Almighty God say to His people about celebrating such days in honor of one's own self, and one's own individual ego?
We have already seen the proof that these celebrations were distinctly pagan in origin. But does it make any difference whether we observe birthdays or not?
God inspired the prophet Jeremiah to write, “Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN, and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven (astrology!); for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the CUSTOMS OF THE PEOPLE ARE VAIN…” (Jeremiah 10:1-3).
God expressly commands His people not to follow in the ways, customs, and practices of the heathen, pagan nations around them!
Obviously, therefore, the Word of God does NOT sanction or approve of celebrating BIRTHDAYS!
God is even more explicit. Celebrating birthdays was a particularly Egyptian custom. God plainly commands His people, “After the DOING OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, wherein ye dwelt, SHALL YE NOT DO: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances” (Leviticus 18:3).
God goes on, in this same chapter, after listing more of the evil practices of the heathen, “DEFILE YE NOT YOURSELVES IN ANY OF THESE THINGS: for in all these the nations are defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself VOMITETH out her inhabitants.”
“Ye shall therefore keep MY statutes and MY judgments” — which did NOT include birthday celebrations! — “and shall NOT COMMIT ANY OF THESE ABOMINATIONS; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these ABOMINATIONS have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you” (Leviticus 18:24-28).
Does this sound strong?
Almighty God does not sanction, approve or endorse ANY of the pagan customs of the nations of the world! They are an ABOMINATION to Him!
God feels very strong about this matter. He continues, “For WHOSOEVER SHALL COMMIT ANY OF THESE ABOMINATIONS, even the souls that commit them shall be CUT OFF from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep MINE ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these ABOMINABLE CUSTOMS, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God” (Leviticus 18:29-30).
Those who observed the customs of the pagans, including celebrating birthdays, as the pagans did, and the Egyptians did, were to be “CUT OFF” from among God's people — exiled from the nation, or put to death.
Most of the customs God mentioned in Leviticus 18 were abominable sexual practices common among the heathen, and common in the world around us, today. But verse 3 of this chapter, where God specifically says we are not to do “after the doings of the land of EGYPT,” clearly shows that the celebrations of BIRTHDAYS, so common in Egypt, was among the prohibitions of Almighty God!
Let us fear God and KEEP His commandments!
What About New Testament Times?
Even as there is only one example of birthday celebrations in the Old Testament, so the New Testament also gives us only one such example — that of the wicked, apostate king Herod, one of the worst butchers who ever lived.
Herod was notorious for his wickedness. He was a complete pagan at heart. Notice! He celebrated his own birthday, and see what happened!
“But when Herod's BIRTHDAY WAS KEPT, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.” The entertainment at his birthday party included a very erotic, sensual dance, very likely a strip tease dance similar to the so-called “dance of the seven veils.” At any rate, Herod was transfixed by the gyrations and movements of the lithe young female dancer, his “wife's” daughter.
“Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask. And she, being instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John the Baptist's head in a charger.”
“And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her. And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother. And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus” (Matthew 14:6-12).
Here again, at a pagan birthday party, somebody was killed — this time a tremendous servant of the true God!
Should Christians celebrate birthdays? Obviously, the answer from the Word of God is a resounding NO! Birthdays are an abomination in the sight of God. They are not among the Biblical customs that should be observed among the true people of God.
If birthdays should be observed, then why is the Bible silent on the date of the birth of every single servant of God, including Abraham, Noah, Moses, Samuel, David, the apostles, and most important of all, Jesus Christ Himself?
In God's sight, the actual time and day of a person's birth are completely unimportant. In fact, in God's sight, as Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes, “A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth” (Ecclesiastes 7:1).
It is interesting how many people actually become depressed when their birthday arrives. It reminds them of how much older they are getting! The merry-making and party spirit are so fragile, false, and short-lived. It is all a facade to cover up a person's intense personal loneliness and depression. Birthdays are part of Satan the devil's attempt to destroy mankind by causing them to be self-centered, self-conscious, and filled with self-interest and self-congratulations.
It is all self, self, self!
The Early Church
The day of one's birth is totally unimportant. The early Church of God understood this fact. Lewis writes in Birthdays, “…when the Christian church sought to substitute the authority of a religious hierarchy for the hegemony of the individual ego, BIRTHDAYS BECOME UNWELCOME REMINDERS OF PAGAN EXCESS and the degradation assumed in Adam's heritage. Celebrating the self was bad” (p.14).
Origen of Alexandria, in 245 A.D., wrote in a dissertation on Leviticus:
“. . . none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days. For we find in the Old Testament that Pharaoh, king of Egypt, celebrated his birthday with a feast, and that Herod, in the New Testament did the same. But the saints not only neglect to mark the day of their birth with festivity, but also, filled with the Holy Spirit, they curse this day, after the example of Job and Jeremiah and David.
For the true Christian, this life is a life of struggle and overcoming. The flesh is weak and prone to sin and lust. The carnal human mind is enmity against God (Romans 8:7). We must learn to throttle, subjugate, and subdue the pulls of the flesh, by the power of God's Spirit (Romans 7:1-25; 8:1-14).
Therefore, we do not celebrate the day we put on this fleshly tabernacle, but rather the day when we will put it off, and be clothed upon with a NEW BODY, pure and perfect, from heaven (Romans 8:22-23). In the meantime “we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit
, the redemption of our body” (verse 23).The Christian Attitude
For the true Christian, this life is a life of trials and tests. As David wrote, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous” (Psalms 34:19).
The apostle Paul wrote, “We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.”
“For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh” (II Cor.4:8-11).
For Christians, this present mortal life is not an end in itself. Our hope is for the coming of Christ, and the resurrection!
Because we suffer greatly and often, in the flesh, we do not glory in the flesh, or in the day of our fleshly birth. It is of no consequence. But we look to the future, not to the past, and to the Kingdom of God!
As Paul wrote, “For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen (the physical around us), but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal” (II Cor. 4:16-18).
This present physical life, therefore, is nothing to rejoice about, or to focus our hopes and aspirations on. It is nothing to celebrate!
Paul wrote, in the very next chapter of II Corinthians, “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For in this we GROAN, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is FROM HEAVEN. . . For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being BURDENED: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of LIFE” (II Cor. 5:1-4).
As Paul wrote in I Corinthians, “But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain” (I Cor. 15:13-14).
Paul felt so strongly about this fact, that he declared, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men MOST MISERABLE” (verse 19). But our hope is not for this life! Paul went on, “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept” (v. 20).
This entire chapter shows us that the true hope of the Christian is the resurrection of the dead, when we shall all “be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED. For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (I Cor. 15:51-52).
That is the day we will celebrate — not our physical birthdays, when we were literally born into a lifetime of struggle, trials, suffering, death, misery, and privation, persecution, strife, and pain. Not at all! We look forward to and celebrate the second coming of Christ, and the resurrection of the dead saints which will occur at His coming!
As Paul wrote to the Philipians, “Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but LOSS for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but DUNG, that I may win Christ…That I may know him, and the POWER of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead” (Phil. 3:8, 10-11).
This was Paul's one ambition, one driving desire, in life. He declared, “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, FORGETTING THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE BEHIND (such as birthdays!), and REACHING FORTH unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:13-14).
This present life is as nothing. It is full of pain and suffering. If we follow Christ, then we will suffer as He suffered, leaving us an example (I Peter 4:13; 2:21). But the end result — the eternal reward ahead of us — makes it all worthwhile!
During this life we experience the “fellowship of his sufferings” (Phil. 3:11). We are one with Him in suffering, that we might become one with Him in glory and eternal life!
Paul wrote, “Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY, that it might be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:21).
How much greater this is, than celebrating our birthdays of this fragile, temporary, transitory, weak, clay, human existence!
Avoid Pagan Birthdays
The World Book — Childcraft International says regarding “Holidays and Birthdays,” “For thousands of years people all over the world have thought of a birthday as a very special day. Long ago, people believed that on a birthday a person could be helped by good spirits, or hurt by evil spirits. So, when a person had a birthday, friends and relatives gathered to protect him or her. And that's how birthday parties began.”
“The idea of putting candles on birthday cakes goes back to ancient Greece. The Greeks worshipped many gods and goddesses. Among them was one called Artemis.”
“Artemis was the goddess of the moon. The Greeks celebrated her birthday once each month by bringing special cakes to her temple. The cakes were round like a full moon. And, because the moon glows with light, the cakes were decorated with lighted candles.”
This authority goes on: “More and more, though, people the world over attach a certain magic to their actual date of birth…We may wear a ring with our birthstone in it for good luck. And when we blow out the candles on our birthday cake, we are careful to keep what we wished a secret. If we tell, of course, our wish won't come true.”
“In other words, WE FOLLOW MANY OF THE OLD BIRTHDAY BELIEFS. We pay attention to the meanings of old-time birth symbols. And WE CARRY ON THE OLD CELEBRATIONS. We don't necessarily take them seriously. We do these things mainly for fun. But it is also possible that there is something deep inside us that wants to believe.”
Why do people say, “Happy birthday!” to each other? Says this authority, “For the good wishes of our friends and relatives are supposed to protect us from evil spirits.”
What about birthday thumps, bumps, pinches, and the like?
“In many parts of the world, it is a tradition to give the birthday child pinches, smacks, spanks, thumps, bumps, or punches. Even though they may hurt a little, they are said to be very lucky…”
“The reason for birthday spanks is to spank away any evil spirits and send them scurrying far into the distance. Punches, thumps, and pinches, the harder the better, are supposed to do the very same thing. . . “
“Party snappers, horns, bursting balloons, firecrackers, and other noisemakers are just one more way of trying to scare off any bad-luck spirits that may be hovering about.”
What about traditional birthday games, such as “Pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey”?
“The games we play at birthday parties are often a symbol of trying to know the unknown. In this case, of course, the unknown is the future, or the new year of life that lies ahead for the birthday child.”
“One of the oldest birthday games is Pin-the-Tail-on-the-Donkey. A large picture of a donkey without a tail is pinned to the wall. Each child at the party is given a donkey's tail made out of paper and a pin to stick through it. Then, one by one, the children are blindfolded. They are spun around a few times and pointed in the general direction of the donkey.
The child who pins the tail the closest to where it should be on the donkey wins the prize.”“There are other versions of this game, such as Pin-the Nose-on-the-Clown or Pin-the-Ear-on-the-Bunny. But the idea of trying to guess correctly, while blindfolded, is the same.”
All these customs and traditions connected with the observance of birthdays have to do with guessing the future, good wishes for the future, good luck charms against evil spirits, and the like. All the birthday rituals, games, and ceremonies are a form of well-wishing toward the birthday child, which are supposed to work their magic in the year ahead.
But, as we have seen, the custom is totally PAGAN! God condemns it in His Word as “vain” (Jeremiah 10:3), a custom we are commanded not to “learn” (Jeremiah 10:2). The ceremonies have to do with warding off evil spirits and protecting the birthday child — nothing but useless pagan SUPERSTITION!
Should a Christian have anything to do with ceremonies that trace back to pagan times, and pagan rituals? Should a true Christian indulge himself or his or her children in pagan birthday parties, just because they seem so attractive, fun, and “innocent”?
The Word of God thunders, “What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial (the Devil)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
“And what agreement hath the temple of God with IDOLS? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
“Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, and I will be a father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty” (II Corinthians 6:14-18).
Let's face it. In God's sight, birthday parties and celebrations are “unclean” things — abhorrent pagan practices of peoples who know not the true God, or His purpose in our lives. We should, as Christians, have nothing whatsoever to do with them!
May God help you to grasp, understand, and to OBEY His truth!
Every compromise with paganism leads to sin. Every time we reject the Word of God, we cut ourselves off from Him and His promises.
Let us not reject this precious knowledge from God. God warns, “My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge. Because thou hast rejected knowledge, I also will reject thee…seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”
“As they increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame. They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.”
“And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will PUNISH them for their ways, and reward them their doings” (Hosea 4:6-9).
God considers observing pagan practices and celebrations as nothing less than spiritual whoredom and adultery!
God Almighty declares, “For they shall eat, and not have enough: They shall commit WHOREDOM, and shall not increase: because they have LEFT OFF TO TAKE HEED OF THE LORD.”
“Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredom hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God” (verses 10-12).
The “sacrifices,” and “incense,” gifts, and feastings, at birthday parties, is nothing more than ancient paganism dressed up in modern garb and the spirit of whoredom, leading people away from the ways and laws of the true God and His Word.
This whole matter involves the SPIRIT OF WHOREDOM — going the way of the heathen, pagan nations, and their rites and rituals, as opposed to the ways of God as they are clearly set forth in the Scriptures. Birthday celebrations are clearly pagan in origin, tone, attitude toward the individual, in their emphasis on the “self,” and all the various superstitions that are connected with them.
God wants us to worship HIM “in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).
God commands, through Elijah His prophet: “HOW LONG HALT YE BETWEEN TWO OPINIONS? If the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him” (I Kings 18:21).
Whom will you follow?
Whom will you serve?
Whose customs and traditions and celebrations will you observe and keep?
God says, “Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward (bribes): He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widows, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment…”
“Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name” (Deuteronomy 10:16-20).”
God says, “See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land…”
“But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish…”
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest CLEAVE UNTO HIM: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days” (Deuteronomy 30:15-20).
The choice is crystal clear. And the right choice is obvious. What choice are you going to make?
This is not just a simple, little, unimportant, trivial matter in the sight of God. It is a matter of your whole destiny, life, and fate.
Birthday celebrations are not just “kid's stuff,” something we can excuse as innocent and unimportant — just “fun and games.” The whole matter of birthdays is much more devious and sinister than that. Truly, Satan has deceived the whole world, especially in the observance of birthdays (Revelation 12:9).
What are you going to do about it?
David: You and I have circled about and danced a jig with each other in regard to birthday's. I ended it and I think you agreed that neither of us are going to “budge” and just to leave it as we agree that we disagree and no harm fouled. Though after reviewing some of your replies to other's inquiries and you know me, I had to respond. It will be brief though.
First of all I want to say I admire you for standing up for yoru conviction and for your conscience sake. You know that I see have no qualms with some holidays and have problems with others. In regard to the ones I do not, it is against my conscience to adhere to certain principles that lie therein. For instance, I do not like “happy holidays” or the “sprit of Christmas” and the majority of these “annoying” songs you commented on. Though I like the ones pertaining to the birth of Yeshua Messiah, I hate the Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph nonsense. I did see something though in your post that I should point out:
Quote Scott, we don't choose to wake up on a Sunday (day of the sun) in a pagan world, but we do, regardless. But you can choose how you will spend that day. You can choose to celebrate paganism and embrace it, celebrate in it…..or you can avoid it. You admit this day according to a solar calendar and the title which it derived thereof are pagan. Yet you also state:
Quote But you can choose how you will spend that day. You can choose to celebrate paganism and embrace it, celebrate in it…..or you can avoid it. It seems to be an obvious double standard. You even say you can choose how you will spend that day which on the day of Yeshua's birth (the day it actually took place is a moot point) but then you rebuke us for celebrating some holidays. As you say: You can choose to celebrate paganism and embrace it, celebrate in it…..or you can avoid it so touche, we can choose to celebrate the pagan aspect or commemorate the event.
Here's food for thought: The point is presented numerous times that December 25th in the US and the 24th in South America is not the actual day and we really don't know what the day actually is. But what of the resurrection that you and I agree should be recognized and given its proper respect and adoration? “Good Friday” is actually a day that Christ most likely was in the grave still. Three days and three nights would be the crucifixion on Wednesday or Thursday at best and resurrection on Saturday This is not a topic I want to delve into, I am just pointing out that the day of both events has been a great theological-historical debate that holds tenants in both views. Admittingly then the “exact day” is unknown.
Also, historically it can be proven that Sunday was a day that the Roman Church began it's “services”. Originally it is more likley that the early Church did this on the Sabaath – Saturday.
Quote As for your comment on Romans 14 and other scriptures you've stated before which I think I commented on, in considering this matter, the main point is that the Christians did not look to these things for salvation. What t8 was trying to say you glossed over. His main point is that these things for or against are not things for salvation.
Quote Nowhere does the Bible say to celebrate birthdays.
–Nowhere do we see the early Christians celebrating birthdays
–Nowhere does God give the impression we should celebrate birthdays, including his Son’s whose birth date is not given.….neither does it say not to.
Quote JUST FOR THE RECORD, JW’S ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO RECOGNIZE the origins of Birthdays and the Bible principles that apply. The following scripture is one that I have seen in a few of these sites. It seems that God’s people should be separate and distinct from paganism and the customs associated with it. You have done this erroneously more than once. I am referring to a quote or another website that holds to the JW poistion on different topics. However, if you would look further into this site, you will see a stark contrast with what the JW's believe and what the Restored Chruch of God believe. It is acknowledged that the founder of this group's teachings, have now been renounced by the very organization he began and few Orthodox believing Christians acknowledge this group as Christian.
Quote It seems to be an obvious double standard. You even say you can choose how you will spend that day which on the day of Yeshua's birth (the day it actually took place is a moot point) but then you rebuke us for celebrating some holidays. As you say: You can choose to celebrate paganism and embrace it, celebrate in it…..or you can avoid it so touche, we can choose to celebrate the pagan aspect or commemorate the event.
My point, which was missed, was that I am going to wake up tommorow and it's going to be a tuesday. I'll wake up tomorow and that's the day it will be. I have no choice but to live in that day, because I live in the world. In English, it's called Tuesday. It is no doubt derived from a pagan god. But if that day happens to be a day that the world celebrates paganism and lies, I can make the choice to celebrate with them, or not. I choose not.
As the scripture I quoted says, we live in the world. We can't get out of the world. The best we can do is stay separate from it.
The other scripture showed that we must be “reasonable.” One scripture says to have “soundness of mind.”I don't mind saying the word: Christmas. But celebrating it is a different thing completely.
If I'm walking down a path and I see someone worshipping “tuesday” a false god, I may say, owe look, Tuesday worshippers. But I'm not going to join them.
That's the difference.Christmas supposedly commemorates the birth of Jesus Christ, and nearly every religion that claims to be Christian celebrates it.
Yet, there is no evidence that the first-century disciples of Jesus observed such a holiday.
For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.
Even if Jesus’ disciples had known the exact date of his birth, they would not have celebrated it. Why? Because, as The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.” The only birthday observances mentioned in the Bible are those of two rulers who did not worship Jehovah. (Genesis 40:20; Mark 6:21)
Birthday celebrations were also held in honor of pagan deities. For example, on May 24 the Romans celebrated the birthday of the goddess Diana.
On the following day, they observed the birthday of their sun-god, Apollo. Hence, birthday celebrations were associated with paganism, not with Christianity.There is another reason why first-century Christians would not have celebrated Jesus’ birthday. His disciples likely knew that birthday celebrations were connected with superstition. For instance, many Greeks and Romans of ancient times believed that a spirit attended the birth of each human and protected that one throughout life.
Jehovah certainly would not be pleased with any observance that would link Jesus with superstition. (Isaiah 65:11, 12)
The pagan roots of Christmas have long been recognized. Because of its unscriptural origin, Christmas was banned in England by the Puritans and in some of the American colonies during the 17th century. Anyone who even stayed home from work on Christmas day had to pay a penalty. Soon, though, the old customs were back, and some new ones were added. Christmas once again became a big holiday, and that is what it still is in many lands. Because of the connections that Christmas has with false religion, however, those who want to please God do not celebrate it or any other holiday that has its roots in pagan worship.
THAT'S RIGHT, CHRISTMAS WAS ILLEGAL in the U.S. but I think for only a year. It was too popular.
Ok, let's look at this and see it for what it is.
Two thousand years before Christ, there was an ancient celebration that became unlike any other. It was a sun feast, motivated by the fear of man. The Roman Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun lasted seven days. It built up to the day of the sun, the rebirth of the sun, or the birthday of the unconquered or invincible sun on this day. A few hundred years ago, this celebration was outlawed by England’s Parliament because of its pagan background. Satan worshipers and witches still revere this day on which they celebrate the birth of the solar child. You might be surprised to know that this celebration still exists and has taken on a new name.
It’s now called Christmas.
PUBLICK NOTICE
The Observation of CHRISTMAS having been
deemed a Sacrilege, the exhanging of Gists and Greetings,
dressing in fine Clothing, Feasting and Similar
Satanical Pracites are herebyFORBIDDEN
toith the Offender liable to a Fine of FIVE SHILLINGS
Of course, it wasn't the dressing in fine clothing or giving gifts in themselves that were viewed as wrong. It was the celebration itself which they knew came from “satanical practices.”
And any who look into the actual origins of these things would understand this.
But the real question is: Would they care? Or is this tradition too important to them?
MARK 7:7-8
“It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.””And I don't think we are going in circles.
You are right in that I didn't look at all of those websites I quoted. But as I said, if you'll check, my only point was to bring out that JW's aren't the only ones who recognize these orgins and recognize that God might look badly on taking on the customs of those pagans who practiced such things. The puritans who outlawed this celebration in the 1600's is one example.
Yes, families drawing together is a good thing.
Yes, remembering what Jesus did for us and looking into the Bible is a good thing.
Regarding the matter that should be our chief concern, the apostle Paul wrote: “Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord.”—Ephesians 5:10.Suppose you saw a piece of candy lying in the gutter. Would you pick up that candy and eat it? Of course not! That candy is unclean. Like that candy, holidays may seem sweet, but they have been picked up from unclean places. To take a stand for true worship, we need to have a viewpoint like that of the prophet Isaiah, who told true worshipers:
“Touch nothing unclean.”—Isaiah 52:11.david
Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Nov. 13 2006,22:11) Something happend at the end of my last post. You have done this erroneously more than once. I am referring to a quote or another website that holds to the JW poistion on different topics. However, if you would look further into this site, you will see a stark contrast with what the JW's believe and what the Restored Chruch of God believe. It is acknowledged that the founder of this group's teachings, have now been renounced by the very organization he began and few Orthodox believing Christians acknowledge this group as Christian.
Not sure what happened, but I fixed the problem by reposting your troubled post. This time it rendered correctly. I also deleted the next post which repeated the end of the last one for the sake of those who read, as it would be confusing since the problem has been fixed now.
To david.
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2006,00:28) HI t8. You write: Quote Now regarding holidays (holydays) if a man wants to honour the day his saviour was born on December 25 or 24 as they do in South America, it is not for you or your organisation to judge. If they do so to honour God, then it is pleasing to God. It is when you believe that it is wrong that it becomes sin, Many have forgotten that the word “sin” exists and wonder what it is. Just because someone doesn't know they are sinning (falling short or missing the mark of God's glory) doesn't mean they aren't sinning. We are all imperfect and all sin and fall short of the glory of God, a lot.
T8, what if people who don't know any better decide to follow a tradition that is based on sin (idolatry)….such as, let's say, celebrating an ancient Roman pagan holiday…that, oh I don't know, let's call the Roman Saturnalia?
So that's not wrong?
What if they decided to follow the traditions of their fathers without questioning it and celebrated Satan day? Well, as long as they're in ignorance and don't try to look into the meanings of the customs they partake in, their ignorance will save them? Is that what you are saying?As long as they are “honouring God” by following ancient pagan customs?…then, all is well?
I understand how that is a nice way to think, polically correct and such. Doesn't God's opinion and his thoughts matter more than all else?
Wouldn't you want to avoid taking the chance of hurting God or angering him by imitating or copying the ancient pagan customs of people that God clearly hated?
Risky.
God hated what George did. But what George did was a long time ago. So if I dress up like George or do the same things George did, on the same day, God won't mind. Copying the customs God hated is ok???
Quote Similarly it is wrong to eat meat if you believe it is wrong and to such they are weak in that area and defiling the conscience willingly is a sin before God.
If you read all those scriptures again, it becomes clear that Paul was speaking of whether or not to obey the Old covenant, the law with regard to meat. If it stumbled someone, avoid it, was the admonition.Try at least, to look through God's eyes.
Or imagine if I was someone alive back then and knew where all those things came from and why they were practiced and for who they were done and I wanted to become a Christian, but wait, I'm stumbled, because all you “Christians” are practicing paganism. Perhaps you should avoid it. What is some cake or birthday wishes worth, if it stumbles someone?INteresting, I just noticed what you said next:
Quote Now seekingtruth brings up an interesting point. He says should he not celebrate Christmas so that he doesn't offend you. Of course it won't stumble me. I've already stumbled over false religion's thinking–do your own thing, follow your traditions, do what feels right, find your own way, practice whatever, don't look into anything too much, etc.
Quote A good question. First I would like to say the obvious that among believers in the world, if we tried to not offend them all, there wouldn't be anything that we could do. One believer may be offended by music with a drum beat in it, another by eating meat, and another again by not going to Church on Sunday.
Most everyone would never be stumbled by celebrating birthdays, unless they actually researched them and looked into the Bible. Then, maybe.Quote Well I believe that we should continue to live without offending OUR conscience and by grieving the Spirit. But we should also make special concessions to toward brothers that we do not offend them even in matters where it is OK by new covenant standards.
I do not believe this is a new covenant standard of thinking. I believe God has always hated and will always hate idolatry and while those who do those things today don't know where they came from and aren't really committing idolatry, (unless they're so addicted to cake, they make their belly their god) they are immitating or copying or following the tradition of what those people did. Why Oh why would anyone want to do this?Satan rules this world. He's it's god. He's good at what he does. He does it well.
Quote In the case of offending a JW regarding Christmas, a believer would obviously not wish a JW Merry Christmas for that would be offensive. But to a believer that is not offended it is OK to do so.
It's not even really offensive unless done in a mocking way. We're so used to it. But if you know we don't, and say merry Christmas, then this would bother us.Quote So if you wish to eat meat, or celebrate Christmas to honour when our saviour was born, then we are free to do so, but we shouldn't involve a brother who may be offended.
But we still have to obey what the Bible says. This new freedom you speak of is limited by what we know of God. We are not free to “eat meat” if it contains blood. That was expressly forbidden in the Bible. Paul was referring to eating meat that had been used for sacrifice. There was nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat. An analogy could be drawn with whether someone who doens't celebrate halloween could eat chocolate candies that were in a bowl for halloween purposes. Of course they could. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those normal candies. But if that stumbles someone, then don't. Just don't.
And while the Bible says nothing specifically AT ALL about Christmas or Jesus birth and doesn't mention Jesus birth at all or the celebrating of his birth or the command to celebrate it or the date…while it doesn't mention any of these things, we do know other things about God. He hates certain things. We know how he acted toward certain ones who did bad things. If we compare them to our situation, we can discern how God feels about things. It is only He who matters.Quote Look at it like this. There is probably a believer somewhere in the world who thinks eating vegetables is offensive. Surely there must be at least one. So are we to
abstain from eating vegetables and meat for risk of offending people?
God Created vegetables. He told us to eat them.
God created the stars. He told us not to worship them.
He told us not to commit idolatry. He told us not to imitate the pagans.Quote We are free to eat meet, celebrate Christmas, so long as our hearts are right before God.
Perhaps we should focus more on God's heart towards us and how he views our actions or non-actions.david
david it is not up to you to judge others as you have in this post.If you cannot see the heart of someone, so you shouldn't judge them as doing evil because they celebrate on a certain day. All days belong to the Lord if you are pure.
I myself really don't care for Christmas or even my own birthday. But I will celebrate on Christmas day because I get time off work. That is the real joy I get from Christmas. Time with my family.
In all honesty all days are the same to me.
However, I will not bring my child up to believe in Santa Claus, and I will not tell him that December the 25th is Jesus birthday. But I will give presents and eat better than most other days. I am allowed to. “All things are permissible, but not profitable”. But giving and having joy is profitable. Look beyond the physical david. You will find greater things beyond that which you can see and touch.
At Christmas, I will then go somewhere with my time off, and because the Christmas period is summer here, I will also enjoy the warmer weather.
Now in of itself, to eat food, give presents, and to enjoy your family and time off is not pagan or evil, just as a piece of wood isn't evil. The evil comes from what is in your heart and to what you direct your thanks giving and joy to. If I take that same piece of wood and fashion it into an idol to worship, then that is evil.
You incorrectly judge if you say that all who celebrate during the Christmas period offend God.
I will let scripture speak again:
Romans 14 5-18
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11 It is written:
” 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' “12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
But your reply to this is “Many have forgotten that the word “sin” exists and wonder what it is. Just because someone doesn't know they are sinning (falling short or missing the mark of God's glory) doesn't mean they aren't sinning. We are all imperfect and all sin and fall short of the glory of God, a lot.”
But david, sin is not enjoying yourself over the Christmas period, sin is in worhipping idols. I am not worshipping idols and I care naught for what December 25 is in the pagan calendar because my heart is not toward these pagan things.
Here is the truth david:
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.So if my heart is pure, then enjoying myself over the Christmas period is also pure. But if my heart is corrupt, then even honoring the correct day of our saviours birth is also corrupt.
You are judging people because they celebrate during the Christmas period. This is wrong and you have no true authority to pass such judgement. You call it sin, but it is sin to you because your conscience is weak in this area. But you incorrectly assume that all our consciences are weak if you judge in the manor that you have. But my conscience is not weak in this matter. Just as I can eat meat, I can also celebrate during the Christmas period and I am free to remember the day of my birth if I want. If you are a brother, you shouldn't judge me on such matters. It is wrong for you to pass your (JWs) judgement on this.
It is not sin to celebrate, eat food, and give presents. It is sin if you believe it is sin to do so, on certain days. So it is sin for you, but not for me.
Now you say:
Quote God Created vegetables. He told us to eat them.
God created the stars. He told us not to worship them.
He told us not to commit idolatry. He told us not to imitate the pagans.Correct. But pagans breathe and so do we. Pagans have time off at Christmas so do we. Do you get the point?
You say:
Quote Perhaps we should focus more on God's heart towards us and how he views our actions or non-actions. I agree. Lets stop judging one another over such silly things and realise that God looks at the heart and to the pure all things are pure. Saying that we aren't allowed to make one day holy just because it falls on the same days as what the pagans celebrate doesn't mean that we are defiled. Perhaps the pagans celebrate every day of the year when you take into account all the cultures and beliefs in the world. Are we then to give every day to the pagans because they claimed it? Does not light overcome darkness? Do you believe that redemption is possible?
Are we righteous because we do the opposite of the pagans? Or are we righteous because we have been made righteous and our hearts are pure?
Quote Most everyone would never be stumbled by celebrating birthdays, unless they actually researched them and looked into the Bible. Then, maybe. Such thinking is silly. Did you know that the Hebrew equivalent of our “w” is the letter “vav” or “waw”. The numerical value of vav is 6. So the English “www” transliterated into Hebrew is “vav vav vav”, which numerically is 666.
So are what are we to do? Stop using the Internet? Stop coming to this website? Perhaps if I see another post from you, then I could judge you by saying that you are building the beast? But if I did, I would be wrong, because it boils down to the state of your heart. Is it pure or not?
If you dig deep enough you will find that nothing in this world is perfect. So should be leave the world? No, we are in the world, not of it. Judging by physical things means that you lack the ability to see into the heart. God sees the heart, so you should
n't judge others harshly.david, you should ask for forgiveness for judging us and all those who celebrate during Christmas.
Romans 14 13-14
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.The difference david is between spiritual and physical thinking. Because you do not believe in being born from above, then you (like the Pharisees) can only grasp that which is physical, but like them, you will inevitably neglect the weightier things if all you can see are physical things.
Can you touch love? Can you touch mercy? Can you look into a mans heart/soul/spirit with your physical eyes? Look to those things that are pure. Don't look at what the pagans do, and do the opposite? Rather be lead by the Spirit. Knee jerk reactions to pagans is not being led by the Spirit.
Again I say that you should repent of your harsh judgement of those who celebrate during the Christmas period. It is wrong to judge this way and you neglect completely the hearts of people when they do so.
If we celebrated Christmas to honour Baal, then what is the sin?
Honouring Baal or celebrating on December the 25th? It is honouring the false god that is evil. So if we are not honouring a false god, or worhipping an idol, or probogating the lie that Santa Claus is coming to town, then you shouldn't judge for simply celebrating on that day.Well said T8,
David, I fear that the JW's parallel the pharisees in many ways. The pharisees also used misapplied and/or misinterpretated scripture as well as “traditions” to “prove” how they were serving Jehovah, and everyone else wasn't.Be careful that your not found, not only refusing to enter in, but preventing others from entering in also. I'm sure you believe I'm the one deluded, and while it may be, I have given honest thought to the validity of your arguments, but just do not see what you see from scripture, have you considered the validity of mine and others points. I continue to pray that truth will prevail.
Wm
“I myself really don't care for Christmas or even my own birthday. But I will celebrate on Christmas day because I get time off work. That is the real joy I get from Christmas. Time with my family.” – t8
I found it ironic that t8 mentioned the holiday time off that almost every job I have heard of lets there employees off or at least gives them hours of the day to spend with family. I was actually going to ask you if you took the time permitted off? For in so doing you are commemorating the day by participating in the release of your employer. If following your premise to a consistant conclusion you would have to work not only willingly but against your companies wishes. I think the reasoning is as silly as the many points you have tried to make in showing that giving presents, singing songs, greeting someone with “Merry Christmas”, decorating and so forth is wrong. God is not going to condemn you in taking the time off for this holiday nor would he condemn you if you were hell bent on going to work in spite of it. As t8 has said and as I have stated repeatedly, to you it is sin, to me it is not. However if to you it is indeed sin, how can you compromise with such things as resting from work on this day?
Quote Yet, there is no evidence that the first-century disciples of Jesus observed such a holiday. For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.
Even if Jesus’ disciples had known the exact date of his birth, they would not have celebrated it. Why? Because, as The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.” The only birthday observances mentioned in the Bible are those of two rulers who did not worship Jehovah. (Genesis 40:20; Mark 6:21)
In viewing the first century in support of modern day thinking I think has some fallacies within it. YHWH/Yeshua is the same 2000 years ago as is today so He of course has not changed to which none here would disagree. What I think we disagree on is that you along with many other believers believe that what the early Church did according to records and not Scripture is somehow infallible and justifies the way one worships and the conduct of one's manner. God does not change but time and culture do. If some (and taking one record applicable to all is halfhazard) of the early Church did not celebrate Christmas then they had that right to do so such as some that did back then may have had the right to do so. You will no doubt rebut that no one in the early Church did such practices but no matter how many documents you find to the contrary, they were not written by every believer in the first couple of centuries nor were any of us there. Records of the first century Church help edify us and give us insight into their culture, rituals, ceremonies and traditions, but the conduct that flowed from such is not beyond the ability to see if what was done coincides with the letters from the Apostles (and which most of those letters were not even viewed from those early congregations). The early Church of Thessolonica worshipped angels and Paul rebuked them for it. The Church at Galatia made circumcision an addition to salvation. Are we to conclude that those practices are noble or correct? No, because Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit of God stated so. Practices such as Christmas though or in this case the day of Yeshua's birth is not condemned or condoned in Scripture so as t8 has said – to each his own, with no judgment or condemnation given.
Quote Romans 14 5-18
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11 It is written:
” 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' “12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.t8 has posted these verses multiple times as well as I have in this thread recently but it seems you either have had nothing to say in reference to these passages. I am intrigued as to how you can oppose our position in lieu of them.
Quote The difference david is between spiritual and physical thinking. Because you do not believe in being born from above, then you (like the Pharisees) can only grasp that which is physical, but like them, you will inevitably neglect the weightier things if all you can see are physical things. Do not think I am trying to form a posse and gang up on you with t8 or anyone else, but there is much in t8's posts that I agree with; there may not be one I disagree with.
Especially this statement. It seems the witnesses preach a message of joining not a kingdom of the Father or His Son but a kingdom of earthly stituants the from an entity, sub-culture, denomination, affiliation, association with stipulation(s) – requisitions for JW's position in mission for relating to their disposition in view of their rhetoric wounding like ammunition…that requires adherents to tire with laws found in mire that the weak cannot carry not being paid or hired for the load and yoke that is impossible for the ones who proselyte themselves to bear…a yoke that is not founded in the meekness and gentleness that the mercy and forgiveness of Yeshua brings in a born again life; a yoke that takes the bound one in sin and further entraps the hurting wicked not with a message of hope but with regulations, rules and man made traditions that if not followed, will bring certain destruction. I do not find the hope or peace that Christ brings when one believes in HIm and is reborn/regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God removing the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh that beats for God alone, within the literature and rhetoric being proclaimed by the Watchtowers followers and slaves.
The message I see is the outflow of God's Spirit regenerating the wicked causing faith with repentance in turning from the flesh, devil and the world. The hope and perseverance kept by the Spirit until the Day of Redemption is carried forth progressively by the sanctification leading to glorification.
This peace and hope which we foresee in the redemption of ALL creation including the cosmos is only brought forth due to the submission and obedience unto death Yeshua followed in f
ulfilling the Father's will resulting in the resurrection of Christ in whom is the firstfruits as we the sons and daughters of God long for and groan with pains as in childbirth waiting to be finally accomplished.The message JW's bring from house to house is following the Watchtower's requirements; requirements that are necessary to not make one a candidate for any “kingdom” of God but a “kingdom” HALL. These requirements are briefly though not extensively or exhaustively given below:
The forbiddance of birthday's including Christ's
Decorations
Candles
Trees
Cake
Songs…any participation including to by not limited by these few examples are pagan therefore sin.The forbiddance of any celebration of any holiday
All holidays are pagan.
Any decoration or greeting of any such holiday is seen as participation and therefore – sin.
The forbiddance of reading any other literature on theological matters regarding YHWH will be seen as falling away from the narrow road of true witnesses of YHWH.
144,00 are the only ones that are anointed and therefore are the only ones reigning with Christ
You may not participate at the Lord's supper or Eucharist but must be present
All other Biblical translations are stemmed from pagan roots of Trinitarian schemes and are therefore not the final say but must be read in accordance with the NWT in order to find the most accurate rendering.[U]
Our NWT places words that were not in the original like [other] when referring to Christ's creating all things to help misinformed readers who would otherwise misunderstand the text.
Jehovah is also placed in the NT though when it is seen in reference to Christ “lord” is transliterated.
1 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 are correctly translated in this translation.
John 1:1 forces the predicate into the text ungrammatically so no one would inappropriately read that the Word was God also.
Baptism is only for the obediant and worthy people who are to be called under the name of a witness of Jehovah[/I][/U]
Only when you have been reviewed by the elders that you have produced fruit worthy of baptism.
Previous baptisms done under any other name than the JW is not accepted regardless of motive or intention within at the time of the previous baptism ceremony.
Baptism “truly” within the Kingdom Halls do not lie at the door of following Yeshua/YHWH. In actuality if one who wishes to become a JW and investigates the final outcome of their adherence to baptism within the witnesses that one would be astonished to find that they are not being baptized according to the Biblical standards and examples given therein but are being baptized into a denomination. If someone believes for the “most” part of the “kingdom message” and they believe they would be apart of this “kingdom” and wish to be baptized, they would have to follow all the rules of the Watchtower or they will be found unworthy of the kingdom since they did not choose to be a JW
Any giving of blood or receiving of blood for life saving purposes is a sin
JW's do not participate in sports that could risk their life
Skydiving?…it was astonishing when I read this in their literature. I guess that would leave out:
Surfing
Football
Roller coasters or amuzement parks
Rock climbing
Parasailing or Ultra light flyers
Hang-glidingGod is Sovereign but man's free will along with the “god of this world” frustrated and thwarted God's INTENDED purpose
You will never actually be judged for your sins. If you are found unworthy of the resurrection God will just keep you sleeping forever
There is actually no place called heaven that anyone goes to
You must not say the pledge of allegiance to any flag
You must not join any armed force or be active in any military purposes
WWII proves we were the only true believers.
All killing is murder
I true follower of Jehovah goes door to door faithfully
If one does not do so and it is seen that they seldom if ever do, it will be supspicious in the elders eyes.
The encouragement would be given but eventually admonishment would be needed.
The person named Jesus Christ was previously Michael the Archangel
Jesus Christ was the son of God and was created some time ago
You may not believe in the Father Son and Holy Spirit as being One God
References to the Holy Spirit for clairity should be portrayed as a verb showing what “it” does and not what “it” is
So when referring to Scripture “active force” is more appropriate than Holy Spirit.
Removing the predicate “the” helps clear things up and also typing or writing this force in small caps is also helpful.
The Holy Spirit must NEVER be used with pronouns but be kept with the neuter even when the pronoun is actually what is in the text; again, we are keeping the Scripture from looking like it contradicts it self
…when actually it never does but when one verse is taking as sin qua non then the rest of the text must line up with a presupposed belief
Initially there are two main groups:
1)144,000 in heaven
2) The rest of us
…but then there is a third group – the resurrected unrighteous who get a second chance
…then there is a fourth group the wicked who will be judged by sleeping forever
… only we haven't worked out the fifth yet. The Jews whom God will graft back into the original vine when the fulness of the Gentiles have come in
Jesus died on a stake – rendered “torture” stake
The cross was never used by the early Church as a symbol for Christians
…they they were
God causes no suffering whatsoever. All suffering is from the devil or from our sinful choices.
Christ did come already but we didn't see it. He came invisibly a century ago
1914 – memorize it – defend it – proport it – speak it – proclaim it- if you have to, YELL it!
This is the year that started the time clock.
Though we are told the day and hour are unknown, we have figured it out and concluded this is the year of Christ's second coming.
Christ's second coming is past tense and we are just waiting idly with our hands folded, watching Satan's wold blow itself up and allowing murderers to go free so we can “all just get along” and be passive – peaceful people.
If you read all of our material you will clearly see Jehovah wants us happy – not holy
Although Scripture through Paul reveals that you don't muzzle the ox as it treads showing that Paul (and us) have full right to receive wages for the gospel's sake and for the continuous, purpose of allowing one to spend their life concentrating on the teaching and edifying of the congregation, we do not pay Watchtower servants
You must never worship Yeshua
You must never praise Yeshua
These are just a few of the many rules, regulations, stipulations, guidelines, commandments, laws, decrees, edicts, charges, demands and conduct one HAS TO FOLLOW in order to serve and please God in the end with the “possibility” of living forever.
You are never guaranteed salvation even though 1 John writes that his reason for writing is that the believers be sure to know they are saved.
Now David, being that this is a list of things that the Watchtower and Jehovah Witnesses must follow and adhere to. It cannot be stated loud enough that this is just another system of religious self righteousness. You can mention the crucifixion (even you don't get that right) as a parenthesis in your whole scheme of things but that doesn't make the whole batch holy. You have basically taken the OT shadow of things to come and mixed the leaven in with NT ideas forming plain and simple another rhetorical speech of ideology. I truly think and have come to believe by these many discussions coupled with the numerous hours of studying and coversation with other witnesses, that this is one of the most damnable dangerous organizations covering the earth. It is not a sentence I enjoy typing. It grieves me that this is true since witnesses are so engrained with these brainwashing tactics. To minister to one that is one currently like yourself or one that has almost been hooked line and sinker is next to impossible. If I had no faith in the Sovereign will of God and His purposes being carried out by redeeming the elect I truly would be in dispair of ever trying to reach a JW from now on.
I will still post and discuss things. Only now I will be reading these things and discussing these topics more assured faith grounded in Grace and Truth within the Father – Son – Holy Spirit.
I pray that maybe you will just take a step back and see what we see.
Quit looking from the inside out. Look from the outside in.
I'm sure it is difficult to do so because I know the reverse psychological thinking that your group and groups like you perform and the domineering cloud of haziness that is hard to see through.When I say the witnesses are indeed a cult, I will not be speaking from an uninformed emotionally driven person.
To keep a group of people living in fear of not “living up to” or not “being found worthy” or not “being perfect enough” or “not following all the rules” is cultic.
To have leaders make its adherents submit to a system of teachings that are based on laws not founded in NT love is cultic.
To run a group of persons under the heading of total control and no gray areas to venture upon is cultic in nature.
The restraints and bondage that imprisons any believer removes the Spirit of the Lord's freedom and is -a cult.
The constraints of men laying religious burdens on a people who are heavy laden and down trodden from the pains and abuses that this wicked world brings and to give them a false hope of peace and the release of guilt and shame only to find themselves with their sins joined with rigerous tasks to fulfill in order to gain favor with a Holy God they have ran from is cultic.
May you find the peace of Christ in the resurrection power of His Spirit being baptized in His Name with the waters of healing flowing over you and burying your sins from beginning to end.
Grace is such a sweet embrace!
Seekingtruth:
Quote Be careful that your not found, not only refusing to enter in, but preventing others from entering in also. I'm sure you believe I'm the one deluded, and while it may be, I have given honest thought to the validity of your arguments, but just do not see what you see from scripture, have you considered the validity of mine and others points. I continue to pray that truth will prevail. He took the words out of my mouth. When I said try looking from the outside in, I think Seekingtruth and I allowed your position to be said and I am sure I speak for both of us when I state that I truly set aside any preconceived ideas that were founded in emotion or ignorance and also set aside my biases and not only that, I set aside what I knew to be true allowing someone with different views and a different way of seeing things to speak all the while considering that I could be wrong and he could be right.
I heard you and took a step back to analyze my theolgical beliefs and premise – tenants to which I hold to and which I have tested against other views time and again. At times I had to change to reflect what the other person presented. If someone who disagreed with my theology or personal philosophy (and this goes for any belief or thought held by anyone) and the validity of the argument was in their favor or if I was led with conviction to believe the same, I humbly did so even though sometimes my reluctant pride would have to be smitten by God in order for me to receive the truth.
Maybe this applies to you?
Your Church discipline I found inpenentratable. The Church discipline that the JW's follow is according the Biblical guidlines and is in fact commendable. We could all learn from that.
The holiday problem I think is more a conscience sake position and the enforcement to all witnesses in which to follow is pushing beyond limits. However for such like you who do not celebrate these events because they have a conviction then I find it worthy of praise unto God for that person. But there are Pentecostals who have their hair long not out of a Biblical conviction but because that is what their denomination holds to. I am sure there are numerous witnesses who do not follow holiday customs not out of conviction but out of duty.
I have learned a lot from these talks and I hope to talk more. For now I think this surmises most of what I think currently on Jehovah Witnesses and their heresy.
Hey,
David, do have a question for you, if you do not mind,
What of the Sabbath?
Now, in Jer 10.4, it is written:
With silver and with gold they beautify it, With nails and with hammers they fix it, And it doth not stumble.
If you would like to read the scripture surrounding this, please do.
We must be convinced in our own minds.
love and favour
First, I'd like to say that I only have time to respond to the first post. I'm quite busy.
T8, you write:
Quote david it is not up to you to judge others as you have in this post. If you cannot see the heart of someone, so you shouldn't judge them as doing evil because they celebrate on a certain day. All days belong to the Lord if you are pure.
You're right. I should not judge anyone. If it seemed like that's what I was doing, I'm sorry. But I do hold the practice of imitating the customs and holidays of idolatry as something God detests and hates. And I've spent a great deal of time looking at these practices and the lies and revilries and paganisms in this holiday and have built up some resentment to it and for those who blindly go through these traditions without questioning them. Clearly, the people on this forum are not those sorts of people. If I offended any, I apologize. I realize that Christmas is dear to many. To me, it is mostly lies and paganism. I don't hold these things as dear. So I may have spoken to boldly.
Quote I myself really don't care for Christmas or even my own birthday. But I will celebrate on Christmas day because I get time off work. That is the real joy I get from Christmas. Time with my family. In all honesty all days are the same to me.
However, I will not bring my child up to believe in Santa Claus, and I will not tell him that December the 25th is Jesus birthday. But I will give presents and eat better than most other days. I am allowed to. “All things are permissible, but not profitable”. But giving and having joy is profitable. Look beyond the physical david. You will find greater things beyond that which you can see and touch.
Well I commend your avoiding teaching your children lies and fairy tales as 97.4 percent of those who celebrate Christmas do. (That's a made up percentage.) Jesus stood for truth. And telling your children the truth about Christmas and what it really is and what the Bible really says is a good thing.
In quoting either 1 cor 10:23, or 6:12, and saying “all things are permissible,” you make it seem as though truly all things are ok to do.Paul obviously did not mean that it is lawful to do things that God’s Word expressly condemns. Compared to the some 600 laws given to ancient Israel, there are comparatively few explicit commands regulating Christian life. Hence, many matters are left to individual conscience.
But certain Bible principles and certain facts of history combined with what the Bible actually says about Jesus birth and what it doesn't say, leads me to believe that it is absolutely without question wrong to celebrate the worldly pagan false holiday that has been given a new “Christian” name by a pope.
You may call it a rose if you like. Paganism and lies still stink to me. And while I am sorry if it seemed like I was judging everyone (the world in fact) who celebrate this worldly holiday I am merely trying to get across why we give presents on this date (nothing to do with Jesus) why we put lights and evergreens and holly and mistletoe in our houses (nothing to do with Jesus) and why we celebrate it on that date (nothing to do with Jesus).
I'm trying to present the truth amidst the lies of Christmas. You cannot defend the lies, of course. You can simply support them and try to say, it's all just fun.
You can be a part of the world. Or you can be “no part of the world,” as Jesus followers are. I believe this holiday is worldly in every way. I believe the world over celebrates it. I believe it came from the pagan world and not Christianity and that to celebrate it is to say paganism is ok.Quote Now in of itself, to eat food, give presents, and to enjoy your family and time off is not pagan or evil, just as a piece of wood isn't evil. The evil comes from what is in your heart and to what you direct your thanks giving and joy to. If I take that same piece of wood and fashion it into an idol to worship, then that is evil. God loves a cheerful giver. (not sure which scripture that is.)
Also, when giving gifts of mercy, don't let your left hand know what your right is doing. (not sure which one that is either.)Gift giving at Christmas time is demanded, and sometimes given begrudgingly. Half of the presents are returned.
I found it:
2 CORINTHIANS 9:7
“Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”Are not Christmas gifts given under compulsion? How many gifts are given begrudgingly at Christmas time?
MATTHEW 6:2-3
“Hence when you go making gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, just as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be glorified by men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full. But you, when making gifts of mercy, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,”So the giving that pleases Christ is motivated by love, is practiced without expecting anything in return, and is not done grudgingly or under compulsion.
Am I wrong in saying: How different such giving is from so much of the giving done at Christmas!You can give a present to anyone on any day. But when you choose to do this “exhange” presents just like done on the Roman Saturnalia, “exchanging” presnets, and do it on the same time that they did it (but of course they were doing it as part of a pagan custom on that day.) You're doing it because Santa clause gave gifts to Jesus on that day? No.
People are doing exactly what the pagans did on this day, “exchanging” presents. Not giving gifts to Jesus?
Anyway, I commend your sentiments.Quote Now in of itself, to eat food, give presents, and to enjoy your family and time off is not pagan or evil, just as a piece of wood isn't evil. The evil comes from what is in your heart and to what you direct your thanks giving and joy to. If I take that same piece of wood and fashion it into an idol to worship, then that is evil. ok, and let's say some people worship some idol, let's call it budha. And let's say the some people claiming to be Christian decide to get rid of this Buddha by saying that that image is Jesus. We know it's a lie–that that isn't really Jesus. But Jesus is good. And we're trying to replace the paganism with good by lying. So, we'll say that the buddha statue is Jesus and we'll wear it around our necks and call it Jesus. There.
Ok, let's say some people do this. And you claim you're not worshipping this Buddha, but merely paying homage to Jesus, by doing these things. Yet, that Buddha was once an idol. It still is an idol to some. You say it's not to you. To you, you say it's Jesus.
Well, it's not really Jesus. It never was Jesus. Saying it is Jesus doesn't make it Jesus. Saying you're not worshipping the idol doesn't make it ok. It WAS an idol.
What would God think?We have Christmas, which has been an ancient pagan festival for a long time. We call it Christ'
;s mass. Yet people do the same things they were doing. They exchange gifts, do it on that date, bring trees into their houses, dress the house with lights.
The reasons behind this was superstisous. I'm not sure if I've ever even mentioned it.
Back then, people depended a lot more on agriculture. They didn't exactly have the grocery stores we do. They live or died depended on the agriculture and the sun. So, some people worshipped the invinsible sun. When the sun seemed to be diying as it got closer to the end of december (coming out later, leaving sooner) people got scared. Every year, they'd perform something called sympathetic magic. (Magic is condemned in the Bible.) They believed if they brought out light, it would help the sun, THEIR GOD. It seemed to work every year. Every year, the sun would grow stronger, after that date.
Most never ask why they do the things they do. It's all harmless fun. Yet, so is Satan to some. He is an angel of light to many. He presents things tied with a bow. He makes them appear nice.Anyway, you had said:
Quote If I take that same piece of wood and fashion it into an idol to worship, then that is evil.
My question, I guess, would be: What if you decide a thousand years later to hang that same image of wood around your neck, that same image they worshipped, you hang it around your neck, and do it on the same day as the birthday of that god made of wood? Why would you do this? You say you aren't worshipping it. Fine. But why do it? It resembles what they were doing and you're doing it even on the same day. Why?2 CORINTHIANS 6:17
““‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””Quote You incorrectly judge if you say that all who celebrate during the Christmas period offend God.
Celebrate if you like. Nothing wrong with that. But are you really “separating yourself” from idolatry if you embrace the customs of those who practiced such things on that same date?
I think imitating paganism and perpetuating lies does offend God.Quote Romans 14 5-18
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11 It is written:
” 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' “12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
Those last few words. If I saw someone who I believed was a follow of Christ and they were doing things that Christ didn't like, that would indeed stumble me.
I noticed this in CASEY'S post:
Quote t8 has posted these verses multiple times as well as I have in this thread recently but it seems you either have had nothing to say in reference to these passages. I am intrigued as to how you can oppose our position in lieu of them.
Casey should look back and check again. I believe I had spent quite a bit of time on them. AFter I finish this post, I'll go find a responce I made to these scriptures.Quote But david, sin is not enjoying yourself over the Christmas period, sin is in worhipping idols. I am not worshipping idols and I care naught for what December 25 is in the pagan calendar because my heart is not toward these pagan things.
Well that's good. I have never said that it is a sin to enjoy yourself while others are celebrating “Christmas.” Yes, sin is worshipping idols. And if an ancient people worshipped an idol years ago, would we turn their celebration into something we celebrate?
Would we turn their sin into our celebration? Would we find fun in their customs? Their practices? Would we add lies to the celebration? Would we celebrate it with the rest of the world, which, by the way is lying in Santa's power.Quote You are judging people because they celebrate during the Christmas period. This is wrong and you have no true authority to pass such judgement. You call it sin, but it is sin to you because your conscience is weak in this area.
And to the billions who have no idea why they do the traditions they do, their concsience is strong I suppose? Or, maybe the world has been blinded by the god of this system of things. (2 cor 4:4)
Of course I have no authority to pass any kind of judgement against people. I am not trying to do this. I am sorry if it comes off that way. It is the celebration itself that was born in paganism and is covered in lies.Quote But my conscience is not weak in this matter. Just as I can eat meat, I can also celebrate during the Christmas period and I am free to remember the day of my birth if I want. If you are a brother, you shouldn't judge me on such matters.
I merely want to point out the truth. Is that wrong?
How ironic that Jesus said:
JOHN 18:37
“FOR THIS I HAVE BEEN BORN, and for this I have come into the world, THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.””I don't consider truth to be a bad thing. I consider myself to be on the side of truth. The truth is that:
Christmas and it's customs originated from paganism
Christmas is filled with lies (the date, everything about the magi, Santa, etc).These things are undeniably true.
And I'm sorry if the truth offends some.I'm also trying to point out that God hated what these people were doing and that to imitate their customs is questionable at the very least, and disgusting at the worst.
Quote It is not sin to celebrate, eat food, and give presents. It is sin if you believe it is sin to do so, on certain days. So it is sin for you, but not for me.
I have never ever ever said that it is sin to merely celebrate or to eat food or to give presents. Interestingly, what people do at Christmas is isn't merely giving presents, but “exhanging” presents, exactly like during the Saturnalia.Quote It is sin if you believe it is sin to do so, on certain days. So it is sin for you, but not for me.
This is true on certain things. But today on Oprah, (yes, I had nothing better to do) there was someone with depression who killed his two 5 year old twins whom he loved. At that moment he did it, he did not believe it to be wrong. In fact, he beleived it to be the right thing to do. Yet, he wasn't let off because he didn't believe it was sin.
Obviously, that scripture only pertains to certain things. I believe they were discussing matters of the law, and whether it would stumble some not to partake. Because the law had passed away, they were free to not celebrate the sabbath, etc, but if this stumbled someone, then put your brother's conscience above your own.
It is true that if someone doesn't know he's doing something wrong, it is hard to tell him that he is doing wrong.
But if someone should know that they are doing wrong and still justifies it, saying it's harmless fun when really it isn't, then that is different.Quote Correct. But pagans breathe and so do we. Pagans have time off at Christmas so do we. Do you get the point?
Pagans, witch doctors, those who worship Molec all celebrate Christmas. Do you understand the significance of that? Is this a Christian holiday?Pagans, witch doctors, Buddhists don't commemorate the lord's evening meal. Because that's actually has something to do with the Bible.
Christmas is entirely different.
Quote Lets stop judging one another over such silly things and realise that God looks at the heart and to the pure all things are pure.
You're misaplying scripture I believe. The pure, because their heart and mind are pure, see clean things. The wicked, see bad, because their hearts are vile and it is all they can see.
But the pure also realize and recognize that some things are bad. We are to hate what Jehovah hates. So they don't see everything as pure. They don't see wickeness as pure. You are misapplying that scripture.Quote Perhaps the pagans celebrate every day of the year when you take into account all the cultures and beliefs in the world. Are we then to give every day to the pagans because they claimed it?
Perhaps you completely misunderstand everything I've said. Christmas isn't wrong because it happens to be on the date of the Roman Saturnalia and the coinciding birthday of the invinsible sun. I'm saying celebrating Christmas is wrong because it is the Roman Saturnalia with a new name. I'm saying the reasons the world does what it does on that day, is because it's doing what has always been done on that day. I'm not saying Jesus birthdate and this pagan day coincide. Jesus was not born on this day. I'm saying this holiday is in fact a thinly veiled pagan holiday, and not the celebration of jesus birth. Generally speaking, far more focus is put on the revilries and the customs than Jesus.Quote Are we righteous because we do the opposite of the pagans?
Nowhere have I suggested we simply do the opposite of pagans for the sake of it. But we should avoid imitating their idolatrous celebrations, is what i'm saying.Quote Such thinking is silly. Did you know that the Hebrew equivalent of our “w” is the letter “vav” or “waw”. The numerical value of vav is 6. So the English “www” transliterated into Hebrew is “vav vav vav”, which numerically is 666.
Finally, proof that the world wide web is satanic. JUST JOKING of course.
I don't see how this is related to the fact that the Christmas customs of today originated in paganism and basically, Christmas is the Roman Saturnalia with a name change.Quote So are what are we to do? Stop using the Internet? Stop coming to this website? Perhaps if I see another post from you, then I could judge you by saying that you are building the beast? But if I did, I would be wrong, because it boils down to the state of your heart. Is it pure or not?
So, you're saying if my heart is pure, I'll embrace the pagan holiday that is now named Christmas and embrace and perhaps perpetuate the lies surrounding it? No. I think the word “pure” is similar to the word “clean.” I think this would involve being untainted by paganism.2 CORINTHIANS 6:17
““‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””
I think in order to be pure or have a pure heart, we should avoid unclean things. Don't you? Please look at the verses preceeding this verse in your Bible. What does God's temple have to do with idols? is aked?INDEED!
What does pure Christianity have to do with idolatry?
Not a thing!
Nothing.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:17
““‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””Quote If you dig deep enough you will find that nothing in this world is perfect. So should be leave the world? No, we are in the world, not of it.
My point exactly. We are in the world, but not of it. Or at least, we can choose to be “not of it.” We can do this by avoiding the things of the world. Everyone making themselves a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Separate yourself T8. Become “no part of the world,” as Jesus followers are to be.Quote Judging by physical things means that you lack the ability to see into the heart. God sees the heart, so you shouldn't judge others harshly. david, you should ask for forgiveness for judging us and all those who celebrate during Christmas
.
Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone. Many took offence to what Jesus and the apostles said. What they said was the truth however. Sometimes people have to hear the truth. I was not tryint to judge anyone, but rather reveal some truths about Christmas.Quote The difference david is between spiritual and physical thinking. Because you do not believe in being born from above,
I believe in what the Bible says about being born again, and you know this T8.Quote Look to those things that are pure.
I do. This is why I look away from Christmas. It is unpure by every possible standard.Quote Knee jerk reactions to pagans is not being led by the Spirit.
Since I've probably spent more time studying Christmas than most on here, i would consider the negative responces to what I show to be moreso knee jerk reactions to a threat against their traditions. There was no knee jerk reaction with me, but rather a slow 3 year study of Christmas. Of course, I continue to learn. Ramblinrose has recently pointed out something I don't know how I could have missed.Quote Again I say that you should repent of your harsh judgement of those who celebrate during the Christmas period. It is wrong to judge this way and you neglect completely the hearts of people when they do so.
Again, I'm sorry. But again, I'm not trying to judge anyone. The world has already been judged. The ruler of this world has already been judged. And eveyone who clings to this world will pass away with it. Santa is very good at what he does, T8. He is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Rev 9:12)Quote If we celebrated Christmas to honour Baal, then what is the sin?
Honouring Baal or celebrating on December the 25th? It is honouring the false god that is evil. So if we are not honouring a false god, or worhipping an idol, or probogating the lie that Santa Claus is coming to town, then you shouldn't judge for simply celebrating on that day.
I have never judged simply for having a good time on that day. Rejoice on every day T8. Every day.
But to take the biggest pagan festival in the ancient world and make it a person's biggest “holy (clean) day” seems to be unclean, unpure.david
(I don't have time to look at the other posts right now.)
For any reading this forum who have just joined or don't have all the facts, I'd like to say that Casey has stated many non-truths in regard to JW's and just glancing the things in bold, about one third of them are just plain wrong and about half of them misrepresent what we believe and the rest, I would have liked to explain with scritpure. But I guess that's not the way Casey wants to do it.
I'm not going to go through them one by one, because I have asked him to discuss one thing at a time with me several times.
It seems his mission to slander is clear and he doesn't feel twisting the truth is wrong in this endevour.
He is doing what all who want to slander JW's do. State as much as they can in a long list of half truths, mixed with lies.
He knows that actually covering these things one by one would show them to be what they are. So, despite being asked about 5 times, he has chosen again to throw out all he can in an attempt to discredit JW's.
He can't argue with what is stated about what we're discussing, Christmas, so why not say as much as possible whether it is true or untrue?
His post starts out with a wrong premise, that I'm employed by an employer and not self employed and that I take time off for Christmas. This is false. Most that follows is similarly in his reasoning.
I hate this tactic. I hate what Casey is doing. It makes me not want to discuss anything with him, because he clearly doesn't want to discuss anything. He want's to turn people away from JW's by stating things falsely and as much as possible.
One day, I think Casey means what he says and the next, he goes back to this. I am seriously done with this, this time.
So, Casey,
since I'm a busy guy and you have your mission, here is what I suggest. Go on posting things like you just have. I'll ignore them.
I'll look through all the other threads and go back to commenting on other things, as I have before.
You continue to put down anit-JW propaganda. It's quite popular, so I'm sure you'll find many to talk to on this site.david
Quote I heard you and took a step back to analyze my theological beliefs and premise – tenants to which I hold to and which I have tested against other views time and again. At times I had to change to reflect what the other person presented. If someone who disagreed with my theology or personal philosophy (and this goes for any belief or thought held by anyone) and the validity of the argument was in their favor or if I was led with conviction to believe the same, I humbly did so even though sometimes my reluctant pride would have to be smitten by God in order for me to receive the truth. If this paragraph from my post is seen as David states:
Quote It seems his mission to slander is clear and he doesn't feel twisting the truth is wrong in this endevour …then my posts on this thread are entirely misconstrued and my motives for discussing things misunderstood by what you (David) say.
From the beginning of when I started on here, if anyone follows my train of thoughts and posts (apart when I was angry and spoke with unconstrained emotion) they would see I was sincerely attempting to understand the witnesses beliefs and mission. As I reiterated in my quote, I actually did set aside any presupposed ideas and preconceived notions even staunch theological tenants I hold tightly to.
When one debates and is not trying to “win” or be found “right” both should learn from one another. If I am just trying to talk louder than the other person or trying to be heard and not to hear then I lose in not gaining understanding of that persons passion and reasons for believing or behaving the way they do. Both must defend their position and have sufficient enough knowledge and evidence to back up what is claimed. I try to gain insight into a person who disagrees with me and actually will give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be actually right and correct and I may be wrong and my theory be found wanting.
That does not mean in the end though we do not come to some conclusions or that my previous thoughts on witnesses were found unwarranted but at times proven truthful even reaffirming the already portrayed false lies and partial truths we most often hear. Only I have a view from the inside and can see how a believing witness with strong convictions (which is noble) views God, life and customs.
Though having strong convictions does not make one’s strive unbreachable or just. Convictions should be weighed and measured, tested and proved. Does my conviction have merit? Is my conviction based on facts and truth? Does my conviction remain from a past experience causing me to march forward and stand tall in the aim of destroying any remnant of a painful memory that stemmed in a particular religious setting or movement thereby causing my conviction to be the standard by which I now judge the whole denomination or affiliation that it was associated with? We must all be fair regarding our convictions if not for anything but conscience sake.
Eg: I was severely spiritually and emotionally damaged for years by a particular Christian group. My conviction that the entire theological (or lack thereof) view held by this group was stereotypical and unfair. I placed the few with the majority. My conviction was not based on fact (the only fact was the harm done) as much as it was emotion. It took a long while to get these issues dealt with honestly coupled with the patience of God. In the end I now have no qualms with this denomination. There is much good done in these particular Churches and much Glory is received by God through the outreach of these believers who adhere to this organizations teachings. My bias based on hurt was in lieu of some actions and teachings (at one particular congregation) though at the expense of the joy and peace I found there. Sometimes I emotions are the only thing at the root of driving our convictions. Currently I can discuss the nature of God and theological similarities and disagreements rationally with calmness. I still have convictions regarding this group only now they are structured in homework, studies, discussions and Biblical comparisons. Some of those convictions I let go because some were flat out incorrect, some misunderstood and misrepresented some merely emotionally driven.
I mean and meant no harm in my previous post. Paul said to live at peace with all men if it is possible. I still wish to live (or converse) in peace with David (from your recent statement I assume speaking directly to you is futile now). I think he is a fervent, passionate seeker of God. God says seek and you shall find.
The pursuit of God is lifelong and has many turns, twists, obstacles and pain…but all leading to the fruit and joy of holiness in Spirit. We must be cautious that we not leave God behind in restraints of manmade creeds, traditions, premises, philosophy and so forth. Sometimes we do what God wants, other times we do what we think he wants; I wonder how often we do what we think He wants and what He is thinking is not what we want?
In relation to this current topic, what if the Watchtower structure and outline of doctrine and dogma is far removed from what God wants? What if, just what if David, the Jehovah Witnesses worldwide are deceived and believed a lie? What if? What would you do? Is it at at possible David to weigh the evidence? Why will witnesses not study the opposition without any reason except for finding “holes” or attempting to portray Christendom in a negative light due to one person or groups literature, speech, sermon, or belief? Will you read other literature for the sake of finding more of God? Do not the elders or leaders of the Watchtower and JW’s condemn the use of Christendom scholastics in any form be it books or any other form of written documentation being read by their followers
Here is part of the problem as I see it with that:
The Watchtower (the very foundation and brain of the head): does not allow their adherents permission to study any of Christendom (some may do so anyway though they either do so willingly in rebelliousness or do so ignorantly not knowing) because The Watchtower has laid an entire structure against Christianity. The naïve or ignorant investigators in the kingdom halls abroad are fed this rhetoric and Historical Christian descendants are described always in negative terms and the fallible choices that were waived under the flag of “Christianity” are mentioned repeatedly until these unaware people are confident that any person who says they follow the True God and are not JW’s are actually in deception and blinded by the “god of this world”.
So we have a problem here. One cannot study the “other side” because they are forbidden. The continuous warnings given them to “repent” from doing so will only be given so many times until they are removed from the kingdom hall congregation. People like to feel wanted, liked, needed and apart of something bigger themselves. It is a God given trait we all hold. The Watchtower though abuses this need we all have.
What I am trying to get at is this:
These people who have not done any investigating before they plunge and take a leap of faith buying into the Watchtowers premise will eventually find themselves at the mercy of their the owns they are enslaved to. Paul said I am enslaved to no man, but for Christ’s sake enslaved for all with the freedom we have in the Spirit. That Spirit is grieved and quenched and left at the front door unable to enter at the local kingdom halls. The spirit you will find in kingdom halls is more often
than not, fear. Part of this fear lies in the being pulled here and there by all sides following the strict regiment of The Watchtower. A branch springing forth in this regiment is the very entrapment mentioning here – if you try and see if the Watchtower is wrong and you do this by reading Christian material, the security of having friends and people who you believe are the only ones right will be threatened of being removed from you. Not only that, you will be an outcast and those people you fell in love with will ostracize you, ignore you and not even acknowledge you are there or even exist.So you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t…though I can say with no doubt that you are damned for sure if you don’t.
Nothing bothers me more than anything else I see in the Church is one who has never read the Scriptures from cover to cover at least once and claims to be a follower of YHWH/Yeshua…
…That has not investigated the roots from which the denomination they attend descended from:
Who founded the denomination or in this case religion and why?
What were the circumstances that cultivated the ground producing the fruits of their efforts? Were there any biases held prior to the founding?
What were the proof texts given in support of the certain dogmas they had?
Was the motive of the founder only in rebuttal to another group?…That hasn’t even mildly read any Church History to find out where we came from and what events led to the modern Churches practices and beliefs held today.
Since the one who find themselves questioning their JW faith fear the final outcome of their searching – disfellowship, and since they have been brainwashed into believing The Watchtower is the “faithful and discreet slave”, that the 144,000 have been largely gathered in the past century and they would be in defiance of this “holy leadership”
…they retreat out of the fear of man and what man can do to them.The final outcome is we have millions of JW’s who submit their wills, desires, goals, dreams, efforts – their entire lives to The Watchtower. How many want to leave but are scared to? They will lose loved ones and friends that they may have had for decades? They will be called heretics and pagans. They will be seen in the light of a lost one in rebellion to “Jehovah”. It is a chance that many do not find worth taken. To risk it all just to read and study the other side or explore what the opposing side has to say is indeed a high cost to pay. To question the roots of The Watchtower specifically Russell or Rutherford is almost unquestionably a sure trip to expulsion. It is a sad fact and an eternal cost.
Though David apparently disagrees, no true blood bought born again Spirit filled believer relishes in having to reveal the reality of a worldwide entrapment that will cost millions and maybe billions eternity. That David and other JW’s actually say or even believe that we are set out in a crusade at their demise is a sadder fact. Why can’t I disagree after taking the time out to listen and give them the benefit of the doubt without being called names or being ill spoken of? I hope those who actually are truthful and sincere in their search will see through the emotional sentences said of me and see that my motive and intention starting out on this thread due in part of my quest in the kingdom hall in trying to tie loose ends and making sure I was not misconstruing The Watchtower’s platform and questioning to see if I was just misinformed or even wrong in my belief about and belief of The Watchtower, Scripture and God in light of The Watchtower’s beliefs. A straw man is easily fallen.
I have no intention of offending anyone. No one’s mission should be in offending people and upsetting one being dishonest and rude in their treating of the other’s position. Yet, to sugar coat and be passive in one’s view in defending the faith is to rub shoulders with this post-renaissance, postmodern, politically correct world that thrives on not offending anyone, viewing all events in light of everything being relative with no absolutes…period. We followers of God must not conform to compromise at the expense of revealed truth.
Jesus did not set out on a pursuit of offending people; what He said offended people. They stumbled and were offended over the words of truth He spoke. Their hearts were pricked and their motives tried at His sayings. The darkness fled from the light and woe to Him that took offense and stumbled over This Rock.
If we are offended then we must subdue emotionally charged anger filled words. David if you are offended then I ask you why?
With the end of this very long tiring thesis I will try and summarize. It is said that I have:1) Casey has stated many non-truths…one third of them are just plain wrong and about half of them misrepresent…
2) …his mission to slander is clear and he doesn't feel twisting the truth is wrong in this endevour…
3) He is doing what all who want to slander JW's do. State as much as they can in a long list of half truths, mixed with lies.
4 )…he has chosen again to throw out all he can in an attempt to discredit JW's.
5) He can't argue with what is stated about what we're discussing, Christmas, so why not say as much as possible whether it is true or untrue?
6) His post starts out with a wrong premise, that I'm employed by an employer and not self employed and that I take time off for Christmas. This is false.
7) …He want's to turn people away from JW's by stating things falsely and as much as possible.
8)… put down anit-JW propaganda. It's quite popular, so I'm sure you'll find many to talk to on this site.
For numbers 1,2,3,4.8 I hope my thesis shows the opposite and what my “mission” was and what my “mission” is now were never for deceitful reasons or purposes. If it is viewed as such then the whole here should be measured and taken into consideration. If I am then found to be seen as slanderous then I pray what slander has been given and if my writings are seen with hidden agendas again, show me. If my words are viewed as giving half truths, propaganda, false, wrong and the like, then show me. Finally, if it was ever seen or portrayed that I “hate” JW’s or wish to “prove” them wrong then apparently I mis-communicated and my wording was not properly situated.
For number 5 I told David that I was done with the Christmas-birthday/holiday discussion. We disagreed and I left it like t8 said, to each his own and to him it is sin against his conscience but not mine though David has tried to pound his thoughts on the subject to the point of no return. It is a topic I found neither him nor I would be budging on. I did learn why he thinks the way he does on holidays and that is helpful but regardless so, I disagree with him and in debating tenants of the faith one may still disagree without having to be seen as “narrow minded” or portrayed as feeding on “propaganda”. I think the relentless replies on Christmas and birthdays reveals just how staunch JW’s truly are in believing no one else could possibly be right or they could possibly be in error and are not capable to listen to reason in at least giving the other side a chance but outright denying the prospect we could actually hold a more Biblical view in allowing the freedom of Christ to judge our hearts desire in cases that are not salvific but to The Watchtower, it is a matter of life or destruction.
On that note David, I wonder if you spent as much time in studying the Grace and Salvation of God, the historical events of the Churches gone by, the Scripture apart from Watchtower teaching, Christianity apart from others who believe the same as you…if you would still be a JW. I do not think the possibility for such an outcome is even plausible. The amount of time you have spent from what you yourself have
mentioned I think is futile compared to the amount of time you could have spent searching for more of YHWH. When you journeyed and concluded birthdays are wrong you started with this one premise evaluating all other objectives in evaluation of this one preconceived idea that you had already assumed was right and was above scrutiny. The study in itself is not what I see as futile, it is the motive you had that seems futile. Compared to salvation and eternity, what is the day of our LORD’s birth being commemorated and the day of our birth? You will likely say that the honor of these days cause one to be removed from the possibility to be resurrected in this “paradise” JW are so fond to speak of. That shows the works based salvation that is at the root of The Watchtower’s teaching; Paul would place them one in the same with Galatia’s circumcision.I understand how you believe the way you do. Here is my synopsis:
The Catholic Church was in error in a lot of ways and it pushed you in an extreme polar direction.
The kingdom hall and Watchtower literature intrigued you and challenged you to think outside of modern perspectives.
The idea of “one” particular Church that is also found in Catholicism is also found within the walls of the kingdom hall.
I do not try to presume I know everything you have gone through or every action and reaction that led to your joining of this organization, but what I present I picked up on as I have considered your testimony and responses. Going from one stronghold to another is the likely reaction. There is a security one feels in presuming there is one particular denomination or again, in this case religion, that has all the answers to every question. That when in doubt go to the elders or Watchtower and you will find what you are looking for. Like t8 said, Babel has fallen and God has judged her for making their denominations miniature kingdoms…at least those denominations that view themselves as the “only” way to worship, the “only, way to serve, “the” only means of getting to God and hence the “only” way of Salvation.
On points referring to I have given half truths, lies and so on I say – show me. I was actually not solely relying on what I have learned and gathered along this way over the years, but actually used verbatim quotes and themes any laymen can find in Watchtower literature, I should know, it was right in front of me as I typed.
I don’t need propaganda. You’re right, I can go to a plethora of sites and just learn from them. But an honest seeker will allow the defenders to be heard and allow the opposition to be challenged and test our own ideas and thoughts in comparison with Scripture to weigh and judge each. I told you there is a site out there that blatantly makes false charges and flat out lies to defend their “mission”. I do not need to do so in order to defend what I think in concluding that JW’s are deceived and I have given a few reasons why I think calling JW’s a “cult” is above reproach and no longer do I consider naming your organization a cult and one of the largest just taking an easy way out. I have my defense to back up what I say in rebuttal to witnesses. The Watchtower will topple when God judges her, a harlot daughter of the great mother whore of Babylon. Like mother – like daughter.
Christmas is not all it should be, in fact it seems to be everything it shouldn't be. But for me it seems to be a time, like Easter, when people are more open to hearing the things of God. I like to make the most of that time by celebrating the birth of the Word of God as Jesus our Saviour and to make it known as much as possible.
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