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Quote (2besee @ June 11 2013,07:30) Terraricca,
I have shown you those scriptures in the “beginning” thread, and kerwin and others have also shown you the scriptures. I will once again show you them when I have the time.
2beewhat i really would like is that you answered my questions ,
it seems you run away from the question ,and like to show me more of your miss guided understanding;
if you do not answer my questions how do you think i could understand what you are really meaning
so you have told me something and i have answered you and ask you questions and showed you scriptures ,but you do not respond ,why ???am i right and you are wrong or am i wrong and you right
how can we learn Quote (2besee @ June 10 2013,19:28) You discount my points as non answers to your questions……
2B,You wrote a novel explaining how you understand things and why. By contrast, I listed a couple of CLEAR scriptures and asked you very simple questions about them.
You saying, So yes, it is a fact that there are those who are called gods.. and some believe that there are literal “other Gods” out there. Well not to me, is not really an answer to my questions.
I mean, it sounds like you are hesitantly and finally acknowledging that the Bible speaks of other gods, but YOU personally still won't accept them as gods.
1. How can Jehovah be the god OF gods if He is the only one?
2. Who are the gods in Psalm 8:5 – the ones Jehovah made us a little lower than?
3. Who are the gods in Genesis 3:5 – the ones Jehovah refers to as “one of US” in Genesis 3:22?
4. What does the word “el” even mean in scripture? Does it mean “Almighty Creator of All Things”?
See? THESE are things I'VE been trying to get DIRECT answers to, 2B. WHERE ARE MY DIRECT ANSWERS?
Terraricca, I told you that I will answer your question with scriptures as you asked *when i have the time*. I have other priorities right now when it comes to discussions, and I have *already * been through this with you, for example in the beginning thread. Call it “running away” if you want to, you will just have to wait. It takes time to put together scriptures, and I no longer have a computer.
Mike,
What exactly do you mean by “direct answers”? It is the letter that kills , but the spirit that gives life.
Get to your post again later. I'm busy now..Quote (2besee @ June 09 2013,13:47) Quote (abe @ June 10 2013,07:30) Quote (2besee @ June 09 2013,04:36) Quote (abe @ June 09 2013,20:15) Hi, Gen.1:26 Then God said, “Let *Us* make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
7And the *LORD* God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Do any of you think US equals LORD?
Peace brothers…
Abe,Gen.1:26 Then God said, “Let Usmake man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If we put it all together we have:
“Us–Our image–His own image–The image of God–The Lord God.”
Some will say that God was conversing with angels but I don't think so.
What do you think, Abe? I would love to hear what you think that verse in Genesis means to you. (we'll just block everyone else out for the moment, okay!)
Hi 2b,The Seven Spirits of God, which were created In the First Day (Light).
Col.1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us
meet(worthy) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love;
14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15 who is the IMAGE of the Invisible God, the First Born of all CREATION; 16for IN him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created THROUGH him, and unto(into) him; 17and he is BEFORE all things, and IN him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN from the DEAD; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it was the Good Pleasure of the Father that IN him should all the fulness dwell; 20and THROUGH him to Reconcile all things unto(into) Himself(God), having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.“who is the IMAGE of the Invisible God,”
‘Wisdom' of God
‘Spirit' of God
‘Word' of God
‘Knowledge' of God
‘Understanding' of God
'Counsel' of God
‘Light’ of GodDifferent ‘Parts' of the Son of God.
1Cor.12:12 For even as the body is One and [yet] has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by ONE Spirit we were all baptized into ONE Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but MANY. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the BODY, just as He desired. 19 If they were all ONE member, where would the body be? 20But now there are MANY members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those [members] of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow MORE abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need [of it]. But *God* has [so] composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that [member] which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but [that] the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if [one] member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now YOU are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed IN the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, [various] kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not [workers of] miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way
*Love of God*
Peace brother………
Hi Abe.
So if I understand that right, please tell me if I do or if I don't: the one God has many parts, just as the body has many parts: the human body and also the body of Christ which is the church, each being an important part of the one body. And the seven spirits of God being a part of God is the “our image” which man was made in as spoken of in Genesis.So, how do you feel the one spirit fits in with that?
Is it that the seven spirits combined make up the one spirit of God which is called the Holy Spirit?
Hi 2b,Rev.1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are BEFORE His throne,
Before
1799 enṓpion – literally, “in the eye (of God),” used for how all things happen under God's watch, i.e. in keeping with His plan built on His absolute knowledge.
I believe this word means in the eye of.(Throne)
:6 and made Us a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father
to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen.Rev.3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar IN THE TEMPLE of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore
; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My “NEW” name.Do you think all these Names are the same?
I have more to say, but later.
Peace brother…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2013,16:40) Quote (abe @ June 10 2013,15:22) Hi Ed, A couple years from now Mike will be trying to make the little g a Capital G.
Are ad hominems what you've been reduced to in this discussion, Abe? I noticed that you quieted way down when I posted all those scriptures the other day.
You have time to slam me, but not to address direct scriptures, huh?
Abe, who are the “gods” in the verses I just quoted for Ed in the above post? Who are the gods in Psalm 8:5 – the ones God created man a little lower than?
When you can directly respond to those scriptural truths, hit me up, okay?
Hi Mike,1Cor.8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is [but] one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him.
Jer.16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, And my refuge in the day of distress, To You the nations will come From the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood, Futility and things of no profit.”
20Can man make gods for himself? Yet they are not gods!
21″Therefore behold, I am going to make them know– This time I will make them know My power and My might; And they shall know that My name is the LORD.”
20Can man make gods for himself? Yet they are not gods.
Acts17:29 “Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and THOUGHT of man. 30″Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all [people] everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
He will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN
You FOCUS on 1Cor.8:5
6yet for us there is [but] one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we [exist] for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by(through) whom are all things, and we [exist] through Him.
“Yet for US”
This nullifies many gods.
Peace……..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,14:20) YOUR point? No, that is MY point!
Mike, I have not advocated that John 1:1c says, The Word was god. It is that technically, but is not intelligble in English. This is the problem with it. I have said all along you need to use a word in English like divine or a sentence to describe the original thought. That is one square peg in the round hole among many.Yes, I have said that Eve can be called adam but not Adam. So Eve is man. But even then I have mentioned that we have the word “mankind” which is a better word than man to explain the original thought. Sure people know what it means when you say Eve is man. Well many would. But mankind removes all doubt.
Not so with god though.
And my points still stand. Judas is not a devil literally but in a qualitative sense. If he was an actual devil, he would be a spirit and have no access to salvation. Likewise those that make up the counsel of God are not other literal gods IMO, but are god/theos in a qualitative sense which could refer to nature, authority, etc.
Take the word mankind. If the word 'Godkind' existed then you could apply that to John 1:1c IMO, but there is no such word as far as I know. And remember that mankind is just adam as is man. Not so with theos. So we are left with a square peg in a round hole and this is why this verse is so misunderstood and translated quite differently across the spectrum.
Only one translation as far as I know says The Word was a god. Most people hear that and say what about no other Gods or no other gods beside me. And the argument goes on forever.
But there is no discrepancy at all when you understand that only one is called a literal true God. (Sure there are literal false gods/idols.) Just as there is literally one Devil who is Satan, but many devils.
I think it is you against everyone on this. I am not sure if me continuing with this is going to be productive.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,14:20) For example, I can METAPHORICALLY be a rock. I cannot QUALITATIVELY be a rock. Jesus can METAPHORICALLY be a cornerstone or a lamb, but he cannot QUALITATIVELY be those things.
But you can have qualities of things.Jesus called some brothers sons of thunder (I think).
You are Peter (rock).
If you prefer to use the word Metaphorical then I don't see a problem with that because a metaphor is used to show a quality. I am not religious about what word, so long as it invokes a sense of quality rather than talking about literally being something.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,14:20) I cannot QUALITATIVELY be a rock.
I can call you a rock to invoke certain qualities that rocks possess such as stability. I could refer to someone as a stone to invoke the sense of them being hard hearted or as being part of a structure.The point is that you are not literally a rock and people are not literally stones, but that you share a quality or two.
Here are some yes/no questions for you.
Is Jesus literally a god?
Was Nicodemus the Pharisees literally a god?
Is Gabriel (Angel) literally a god?
Are you literally a god?
Is Satan literally a god?
Is Satan literally a devil?
Was Judas literally a devil?Mike,
Abe has just given you some scriptures, Marty has, I have, others have. If you still cannot see.. okay.Terraricca, that goes for you too. You know we have been over those scriptures in the past regarding what was shown to me. You did not see it then, so why should you now?
Peace.
Quote (abe @ June 11 2013,16:21) Quote (2besee @ June 09 2013,13:47) Quote (abe @ June 10 2013,07:30) Quote (2besee @ June 09 2013,04:36) Quote (abe @ June 09 2013,20:15) Hi, Gen.1:26 Then God said, “Let *Us* make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
7And the *LORD* God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Do any of you think US equals LORD?
Peace brothers…
Abe,Gen.1:26 Then God said, “Let Usmake man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If we put it all together we have:
“Us–Our image–His own image–The image of God–The Lord God.”
Some will say that God was conversing with angels but I don't think so.
What do you think, Abe? I would love to hear what you think that verse in Genesis means to you. (we'll just block everyone else out for the moment, okay!)
Hi 2b,The Seven Spirits of God, which were created In the First Day (Light).
Col.1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us
meet(worthy) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love;
14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15 who is the IMAGE of the Invisible God, the First Born of all CREATION; 16for IN him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created THROUGH him, and unto(into) him; 17and he is BEFORE all things, and IN him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN from the DEAD; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it was the Good Pleasure of the Father that IN him should all the fulness dwell; 20and THROUGH him to Reconcile all things unto(into) Himself(God), having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.“who is the IMAGE of the Invisible God,”
‘Wisdom' of God
‘Spirit' of God
‘Word' of God
‘Knowledge' of God
‘Understanding' of God
'Counsel' of God
‘Light’ of GodDifferent ‘Parts' of the Son of God.
1Cor.12:12 For even as the body is One and [yet] has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by ONE Spirit we were all baptized into ONE Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but MANY. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body. 16And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not [a part] of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less [a part] of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the BODY, just as He desired. 19 If they were all ONE member, where would the body be? 20But now there are MANY members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those [members] of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow MORE abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24whereas our more presentable members have no need [of it]. But *God* has [so] composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that [member] which lacked, 25so that there may be no division in the body, but [that] the members may have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if [one] member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now YOU are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed IN the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, [various] kinds of tongues. 29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not [workers of] miracles, are they? 30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way
*Love of God*
Peace brother………
Hi Abe.
So if I understand that right, please tell me if I do or if I don't: the one God has many parts, just as the body has many parts: the human body and also the body of Christ which is the church, each being an important part of the one body. And the seven spirits of God being a part of God is the “our image” which man was made in as spoken of in Genesis.So, how do you feel the one spirit fits in with that?
Is it that the seven spirits combined make up the one spirit of God which is called the Holy Spirit?
Hi 2b,Rev.1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are BEFORE His throne,
Before
1799 enṓpion – literally, “in the eye (of God),” used for how all things happen under God's watch, i.e. in keeping with His plan built on His absolute knowledge.
I believe this word means in the eye of.(Throne)
:6 and made Us a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father
t
o him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen.Rev.3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar IN THE TEMPLE of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My “NEW” name.
Do you think all these Names are the same?
I have more to say, but later.
Peace brother…
Hi Abe.
Do you think it is the same name?Quote (2besee @ June 11 2013,15:12) Mike,
Abe has just given you some scriptures, Marty has, I have, others have. If you still cannot see.. okay.Terraricca, that goes for you too. You know we have been over those scriptures in the past regarding what was shown to me. You did not see it then, so why should you now?
Peace.
2beethe day you will answer my questions with the scriptures without using alternative understanding of opinions that do not fit in truth with the entire scriptures then I will believe you ,
so try to stick to what is true in scriptures and i will listen very carefully
Quote (abe @ June 10 2013,22:27) “Yet for US” This nullifies many gods.
Nullifies many “gods”? Or nullifies many “scriptures”?Does Jesus saying “only God is good” nullify Jesus' claim that he is “the good shepherd”? YES or NO?
Abe, who are the gods in Psalm 8:5 – the ones Jehovah made man a little lower than?
Hi Mike:
Can you make your doctrine fit despite the following scripture?
Quote 1 Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,16:10) Quote (abe @ June 10 2013,22:27) “Yet for US” This nullifies many gods.
Nullifies many “gods”? Or nullifies many “scriptures”?Does Jesus saying “only God is good” nullify Jesus' claim that he is “the good shepherd”? YES or NO?
Abe, who are the gods in Psalm 8:5 – the ones Jehovah made man a little lower than?
Hi Mike,I think you missed this one?
Acts17:29 “Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and THOUGHT of man. 30″Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all [people] everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
He will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN
This is why you say people do not answer your questions, they answer, but it is not what YOU want to Hear!
Peace…
Quote (t8 @ June 10 2013,23:53) And my points still stand. Judas is not a devil literally but in a qualitative sense.
Read:
diabolosDefinition:
1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
1a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,2) metaphorically applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
Now consider these two verses:
1 Timothy 3:11
Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect.2 Timothy 3:2-4
2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—Both of the words translated as “slanderous” in the above are the word “diablos”. It is an adjective meaning “slanderous”, after all, right?
So although most translations render John 6:70 as “one of you is a devil”, it could just as faithfully be translated as “one of you is slanderous”.
Also, notice in the definitions above, it says that the word “diablos” can METAPHORICALLY (not qualitatively) be applied to a man.
What this shows is that your “one of you is a devil” verse is not really applicable to John 1:1, and Jesus being “qualitatively God”.
But here is the MAIN point, t8:
Even IF we were to translate John 6:70 as “one of you is a devil”, you can't rightly claim, “Judas is not a devil literally”, because Judas WAS literally “slanderous”, and therefore literally “a devil”.
And finally, notice that we, in English, ADD the indefinite article making it say “one of you is A devil”.
Quote (t8 @ June 10 2013,23:53) I think it is you against everyone on this. I am not sure if me continuing with this is going to be productive.
Even if I were all alone on this, I wouldn't mind. Jesus was many times alone – even among his own disciples – when trying to teach certain things that went against the status quo. (“You must eat of my flesh”, for one. He lost a lot of disciples over that one.) But it's not me against everyone. Pierre and Kathi both understand that the scriptures teach of many gods – the Most High of which is Jehovah.I believe this will be very productive, t8. I have learned a lot from you on this site. Let me teach you something scriptural for a change.
Since you come and go in this thread, and miss many things, I would like to do this one on one in a debate thread. Are you up to it?
t8, here is the debate thread.
Quote (t8 @ June 11 2013,00:44) Here are some yes/no questions for you. Is Jesus literally a god?
Was Nicodemus the Pharisees literally a god?
Is Gabriel (Angel) literally a god?
Are you literally a god?
Is Satan literally a god?
Is Satan literally a devil?
Was Judas literally a devil?
Please save them for the debate thread. I will answer them there.
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