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t8,
I know that Persia-Media overtook Neo-Babylon in a night and that Rome gradually swallowed Greece. Greece, actually Macedonia, took Peria-Media fairly quickly with Alexander the Great at the helm. The Ottoman Empire fell at the end of World WarII. There is not gap between them but there is an overlap, even if it is very small.
Overlaps are fine. There are no strict rules here. Basically each empire becomes the dominant power of the region.
t8,
The Seventh may be the European Union though it is an extremely loose confederacy right now.
Could be. One way it could happen is with Islamic immigration and the rise of terror. This could force Europe to invest in futuristic surveillance technology and the opposition to all religions. If a leader rose up within that political system, it could well play out as we read in scripture.
t8,
Some places in England are already rather big-brother like. They have a lot less thoughts about privacy that the U.S. does though the governments manage to find ways around most objections when they want. It is hard to tell because governments are in the mind to claim they respect privacy when they pick and what and how they actually protect it.
So what you say is a very real possibility and parts of the EU are on the Mediterranean Sea. I do not see anything that organized on the African coast but it has happened in the past with Carthage.
That would contradict the prophecy of the five empires and Scripture is not broken.
Revelation
- Egypt – 3100 to ? (Genesis 12:10)
- Assyria – 2500 BC to 605 BC (Genesis 2:14)
Daniel & Revelation
- Babylon – 612 – 539 BC (Daniel 1:1)
- Medo-Persia – 539 – 331 BC (Daniel 5:28)
- Greecia – 331 – 168 BC (Daniel 10:20)
- Rome – 168-476 AD / 1453 AD – inc Byzantine period (Daniel 9:26 & Romans 1-7)
- Ottoman? – 1453 – 1924 AD (Future empire when Revelation was written, but historical empire today)
- ??? Is of the seventh or seven
[caption id="attachment_770856" align="alignright" width="250"]
Nebuchadnezzar Statue[/caption]As for the five kings/empires versus seven, that can be explained by the two empires predating the time of Daniel (Egypt & Assyria) which would not have been of significant at that time as God gave a vision of the future only, while Revelation appears to give us the full picture. Notice that Rome is the fourth in Daniel’s vision while in Revelation it has to be the sixth, as the seventh is yet to come, and one is.
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
Daniel’s empires are five empires represented by four metals with the fifth as being a mixture. It appears that each metal is an empire with Babylon the head of gold, Media Persia as silver, Greece as bronze, and Rome as two legs of iron. The fifth is a mix of iron (Rome) and clay (perhaps a weaker people).
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Could this be a reference to the Ottoman Empire which superseded Rome? Obviously, Romans would have continued to live in the region, but came under the rule of the Ottomans (Arabs). Perhaps they intermarried, but they didn’t truly mix. Read the same verse in the NASB.
“And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
If the clay is Ottoman and the iron Rome, thus iron first, then clay, then perhaps the mixture. As the feet are mentioned so are the 10 toes, so there could well be a clue there as it speaks of two parts to the feet. 10 toes could even represent the 10 European nations that formed after the fall of Western Rome. The feet could speak of the Ottoman Empire and the toes the nations of Western Europe.
Ed, regarding your post on p.13: idolism is everywhere, and is not just within one religion. Open your eyes!
Just sitting in front of the television is more an image of the (beast) than a stone in a box is!
You don’t seem to understand that God judges the heart and mind.
You are free to believe what you want.
T8,
As for the five kings/empires versus seven, that can be explained by the two empires predating the time of Daniel (Egypt & Assyria) which would not have been of significant at that time as God gave a vision of the future only, while Revelation appears to give us the full picture.
The only way that would work is if the Ottoman Empire was the Last Empire, which is the one of clay mixed with iron.
About the Last Kingdom it is written:
Daniel 2:42-44American Standard Version (ASV)
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron doth not mingle with clay.That describes what brought the Ottoman Empire down and and how it is today.
The only way that would work is if the Ottoman Empire was the Last Empire, which is the one of clay mixed with iron.
Well yeah, that is what has been said all along.
As mentioned in the opening post, the idea with this view is that the Ottoman Empire is indeed the seventh and then a deadly wound kills the Beast for a time, and an Islamic Empire comes back for a short time as the eighth king which is of the seventh or seven and leads a great persecution of Christians and Jews. However, with Islamic immigration growing Europe which has a low native birth rate, even Europe could become part of a Muslim Empire as the population becomes more Islamic.
The Beast that was, is not, and yet to come. It seems that the kings from Egypt to Rome were in succession, But the Ottoman Empire was the next empire (seventh) and lasted 600 or so years before coming to an end. At this point the Beast actually died, just after WWI. One hundred or so years later, it comes back to life for a short time.
Oddly enough, if this is true, then Australia and New Zealand were part of the forces that nailed this Beast as the ANZACs were part of a contingent of nations that fought them in WWI. I heard that Britain chose the Australians to fight in this region because they would be use to the hot climate. The Ottomans had fought with Russia also.
This video gives a good description of the statue and the beasts of Daniel. While the conclusion is different to an Islamic Empire (perhaps) it helps to visualise it.
T8,
From what I have read the wound does not actually kill the beast itself but only one of its heads. That head is healed. That beast sounds more like the Catholic church which which was given authority by the Roman Empire and warred against the saints, even defeating them. There is also another beasts that has horns like a lamb and speaks like a lamb and that may well be the one that is now forming or has already formed.
The Ottoman Empire does not really fit it because they are to late on the scene to oppress the saints. The current situation is a desolation and it has been that way for centuries, possibly over a 1500 years. I have read of hints at the presence of saints. They are almost a ghost in the history books. Where they have gone I do not know. I assume the woman is still in her place.
I am not sure if you are paying attention, but the Ottoman Empire overtook the Eastern Roman Empire and if it is part of this beast, it would fit as the seventh. It then dies, and then becomes the eighth with the rise of Islam to form a caliphate and spread sharia law and Islamic time through a leader such as their Mahdi. Also, the Ottoman Empire was Islamic and it turned the region into an Islamic region which is now the dominant religion. A religion that clearly denies the Father and the Son making it antichrist by the biblical defintion. And whose adherents bow down and prostrate themselves to. Further, who continue their quest of cruelty toward the Christian and Jew with radicals beheading many as infidels. Think for a minute about the violence and persecution involved to turn a region full of Christians into a region where Christians are almost extinct.
Of course the Vatican too is a contender because it died due to Napoleon I think, but it came back to life. However, if this view were true, then who is the woman clothed in purple and crimson. Those colours are familiar in the RCC and I wonder if the Vatican is more suited to the role of Mystery Babylon making the world drunk and riding on the back of the beast. The woman looks very religious in nature.
I remain open to these possibilities and others. As for the point you made about the head being wounded, that is true. But I do not argue against that. But only to say that the kingdoms were in succession, but that the Ottoman Empire (and the Vatican for that matter) ended that succession, and thus the Beast actually is no more once the seventh head suffers its mortal wound, but then it comes back to life, bringing the Beast back.
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”…
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
“The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.So by the description of a particular head dying means that the Beast “is not”, but is also an eighth and is of the seven/seventh/one of the seven. I take it that the “is not” is the death of the beast because it is not present anymore. But the Beast comes back when one of the seven or the seventh comes back to life meaning the deadly wound is healed.
t8,
By the time of Islam, much less the Ottoman Empire, the Roman with the Catholic Church established as its state religion and before its establishment had been exterminating the true church and any false they chose. It was the Catholic Church of the West that called the Crusades to aid the Eastern Roman Empire again the Islamic forces. Instead of returning the land they retook to the Roman Empire they greedily kept for themselves and then to top it off they attacked their own allies and took the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. From what I can tell none of this was the intent of the Pope that called the war but it was individuals and groups out to get their own advantage. The fractured Roman Empire competed to take the capital back from the Crusaders and into this fracas the Ottoman Turk’s entered a claim on the throne. The reason being that a previous emperor gave one of his daughters in marriage to the leader of the Turks. The Turks were able to make good on their claim. In some Empires that would be merely a change in dynasty.
The dragon that gives the power is the same dragon that sits over the woman given birth and attempts to swallow he child. That sounds like the devil and perhaps the Roman Empire as the later put Jesus to death as the urging of unbelieving Jew. I know the Roman Empire did appoint the Catholic Church but I do not believe they appointed the Ottoman Empire though they attempted to assimilate the Ottoman Turks through marriage. The Ottoman Empire did claim the power of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Catholic Church assumed what they could of the power of the Western Roman Empire.
The Catholic Church is still around though it has received a mortal wound while the Ottoman is dead and in its body a true mixture of iron and clay rule. The same can be said of the Western Roman Empire except the Catholic Church still wields a greatly reduced amount of their power. Out of the ashes of the Western Roman Empire had risen the European Union with some of its members on the Great Sea. It has a relation with the Holy See, the last remnant of the Western Roman Empire. The Lowest point of the Holy See came when the Papal states were conquered in the mid-19th Century. They were able to recover from that deadly wound and have Vatican city returned to them. The Ottoman Empire has no territory though it rulers still survive.
kerwin, for many of the same reasons you give for the Vatican being the next head, they could also apply to the Ottoman Empire.
For me, I think both views have merit. I reserve my decision to decide on one particular view and remain open minded to them and other views too.
The Ottoman Empire did claim the power of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Catholic Church assumed what they could of the power of the Western Roman Empire.
After conquests in the Balkans by Murad I between 1362 and 1389, the Ottoman sultanate was transformed into a transcontinental empire and claimant to the caliphate. The Ottomans ended the Byzantine Empire with the 1453 conquest of Constantinople by Mehmed the Conqueror
– WikipediaThe Catholic Church is still around though it has received a mortal wound while the Ottoman is dead and in its body a true mixture of iron and clay rule.
Emphasis mine. As for the possibility of the Ottoman Empire being described in these terms, that is not hard if you understand the word ‘mortal wound’. But judging from your statement I have quoted, it looks like you may not know the meaning, so I scraped this meaning from Google for you.
A mortal wound is a very severe and serious injury (almost always a form of penetration or laceration) whether accidental or inflicted intentionally (by either suicide or homicide), which leads directly to the death of the victim. Death need not be instantaneous, but follows soon after.
And who could argue that today there is a concerted effort in that region of the world to revive the dead Caliphate to its former glory. While it has been declared by one group and they are arguably struggling, it certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility that it could happen, especially when we understand that the last one rules for a short time if I remember rightly.
Wow it’s great to know there’s someone in the secular world/media that understands Islam and is willing to tell the truth about it. I’ve never listened to Bill Maher and halfway expected to see on the video that he was becoming a Muslim. There’s stuff on the net about Lindsey Lohan becoming one though I haven’t read it.
I really liked what Maher brought out to Rose about if they were beheading people at the Vatican in Rome what an uproar would be made of it.For whenever the cruelty and crimes of Islam are brought up so many immediately say Christianity is the same. But Maher plainly pointed out that’s not so with good examples. And the Muslim meeting on the video shows plainly what the majority of them believe and teach,and they were proud of it.
Have you ever studied Islam, t8?
I was led to Islam, I studied Islam, and I learned heaps from Islam.
When I had to choose between Jesus as the Son of God or not, I chose against Islam.
So you decided between the Spirit of God and the Antichrist spirit. And yet, you argue for Islam still and give it validity.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
You are ignorant of Islam and what it stands for.
It is about implementing Sharia Law. If Muslims were successful in their aspirations for Islam, you would become part of the Infidel class. That means you pay more tax if you wish to remain Christian. But it could also mean having your head cut off. BTW, this has been going on in the Middle East for centuries to the point that Christians are almost extinct in the area where they were once abundant. Think about that for a moment. It would be tribulation for you. Unless of course you decide to deny Jesus Christ as the Lord and son of God and convert to Islam and accept Muhammad as your prophet.
By supporting Islam, you might as well be supporting Nazism. Same spirit. Different head of the same beast.
The Ottoman Empire like all empires preceding it from the Great Sea, persecuted the children of God and even devoured them. Yet you support them to a degree. I wonder of Jesus gives them the same support you do?
t8, I just had a thought.
Why fear Islamic Immigration (the title of this thread). It means Christians can help them.
@MIIA, I just had a thought, like you.
Why fear Nazi Immigration into Europe. It means Christians can help them.So you are basically saying that the Allies should have let Hitler and Co invade Europe so Christians could help them and because opposing Nazism or Naziphobia is bogotted. Surely you can still help an enemy without letting them invade your lands and destroy your freedom. Would you invite a murderer into your house to live with your kids for example? Yes because you can help him right. Or is it wise to help him in a different way. I say the latter.
Those who say Islamophobia is bigoted are ignorant of Islam’s asspirations and are not able to protect anyone. In fact they usually persecute those who know how to protect their families and nation. Foolish are those who invite an enemy into their house to devour them.
I agree Andrew. It seems that people in the West are truly blind to the threat of Islam and Sharia.So it is unusual to see a mainstream media guy call it what it is.
Being blind to an enemy that is huge in number and getting bigger, believes it will convert the planet to Sharia, and has invaded Europe is foolish. Many Liberals in the West use the word ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down all debate on the subject. That is even more foolish. They are assisting them. HOw sorry they will be one day. Although it may be their children who are sorry.
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