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@t8,
Kerwin. The Roman Empire trampled the whole world/earth. Yet that world turns out to be the Middle East and Europe. Islam also did the same thing.
According to the prophecy of Daniel there will be only five empires from the time of Nebuchadnezzar to the Messianic Age.
1) The golden head = Neo-Babylonian Empire
2) The silver chest and arms = Mede-Persian Empire
3) The bronze thighs and waist = Greek Empire and their offspring
4) The iron legs = The Roman Empire both East and West though East is more appropriate.
5) The feet of iron mixed with clay = The independent states that are now there.For this prophecy to be true the the Ottoman Empire either belongs to the iron legs or the feet of iron mixed with clay. The first Ottoman Emperor claimed his Empire was the Roman and according to prophecy the iron and clay could not be either domestic or foreign powers so I agree with him.
The Rashidun Caliphate actually encroached on Roman Lands in the area for about Thirty years but the Eastern Roman Empire was still in existence during that time so such an encroachment is not mentioned in the prophecy. Unless the beast encroaches in the territory covered in the prophesy then there is no room for it in the area as the kingdoms in that area are covered. Unless it has some unity with the Roman Empire Isis will fail in its endeavors to unify the kingdoms of that area. The Secularist that are also attempting to unify the area will also fail though they may be forge a weak confederacy.
Ed, what difference is there in surrounding a stone, and surrounding a man? In comparison actually, there’s a huge difference. “The man of sin” who makes himself out to be God, and is worshipped as such, is a MAN, (not a stone).
Ed, what if every Muslim the world over repent and bow their knee to the Son of God? (Philippians 2). Will you hide under a withering leaf in anger?
“And God said to Jonah: “Art thou greatly angry for the Kikayon?”
And he said: “I am greatly angry, even unto death.”
And the LORD said: “Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow, which came up in a night, and perished in a night;and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?” (Jonah 4)Miia,
I presented enough evidence that Ed should know he mistaken about the temple mount situation and he should know that the prophecy of the five empires to come in Daniel considers the Ottoman Empire as a continuation of the Roman Empire. Never less he has not backed off any of his claims even the clear untruths such as the claim the daily sacrifices stooped in the 600’s. That reveals he ha attached himself too firmly to the the doctrine he is pushing and so ha forgotten is to seek the truth.
Ed,
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.” (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c. 3)
Pope Nicholas said of himself: “I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do… wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)
The title “Lord God the Pope” – these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)
I can’t verify the truth of these claims but plan to, and they’re only some of them. But if they’re true, compare that with a stone, which doesn’t claim anything.
Ed, what difference is there in surrounding a stone, and surrounding a man? In comparison actually, there’s a huge difference. “The man of sin” who makes himself out to be God, and is worshipped as such, is a MAN, (not a stone).
Hi Miia,
You seem to be either glossing over this or are unaware of this distinction:
The difference is in ‘bowing down’ (as in prostrating oneself on the ground).________________
God bless
Ed JWill you hide under a withering leaf in anger?
“And God said to Jonah: “Art thou greatly angry for the Kikayon?”
And he said: “I am greatly angry, even unto death.”
And the LORD said: “Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow, which came up in a night, and perished in a night;and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?” (Jonah 4)Hi Miia,
What are you posting all this unrelated stuff for?
Ed, what if every Muslim the world over repent and bow their knee to the Son of God? (Philippians 2)
Kerwin, Ed frustrates me.
I see nothing wrong with suspecting Islam to be involved in end time prophecy. But if the suspicion becomes a conviction, (like it has with Ed), and the FRUIT of that conviction is as Ed’s, (support of war and invasion, or disobeying the commands of love), then it is possibly false, and I have seen that fruit in a few like minded people.
The earlier conviction, which I think started with Martin Luther, was that the Pope and Catholicism were the beast of Revelations. What was the fruit of that belief?
Miia,
I support war but I doubt it will accomplish all of what the Secularists or Islamist want. That is not why I support it. I support it because just possibly the lives of people will be improved if the less oppressive groups wins. In the area of the Neo-Babylon Empire that improvement will limited by the hatred of one people for another. Ed wants to lump all Muslims into one group but that is not the way it is. ISIL is known to oppress other Muslims as well as other religions. It also battles against its fellow extremist groups which just demonstrates iron does not mix with clay.
Ed, you believe the difference is in bowing down?
There’s no difference if you consider that Christians rarely prostate themselves in worship today.
Kerwin, I don’t believe a Christian should support war, and I admire the Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses and others for their stance on that.
Hi Miia,
The difference is in ‘bowing down’ (as in prostrating oneself on the ground).
Ed, (1)you say the difference is in bowing down?
No difference.(2)Do Christians prostate themselves in church today?
Hi Miia,
1) WRONG! big difference. Look again at what this verse is saying:
“Thou shalt not make thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them” (Deut 5:8-9)Are you saying this does not matter??? Well it certainly does
matter to God considering it is (#2) one of the 10 Commandments!2) Are you now attempting to divert away from what we are discussing?
The earlier conviction, which I think started with Martin Luther, was that the Pope and Catholicism were the beast of Revelations. What was the fruit of that belief?
Still a contender I think, although I think Mystery Babylon fits the bill better. She wears purple and crimson and made the whole world drunk on her wine. Certainly sounds like a city and a religion wrapped up in one.
The Beast included Rome, but the Roman Church came from that beast. And we see that the woman rides the back of the Beast. It supports her.
In fact it is probably talking about all false religion of the empires that make up the Beast. That would include Islam too if the Ottoman Empire was to be included.
According to the prophecy of Daniel there will be only five empires from the time of Nebuchadnezzar to the Messianic Age.
1) The golden head = Neo-Babylonian Empire
2) The silver chest and arms = Mede-Persian Empire
3) The bronze thighs and waist = Greek Empire and their offspring
4) The iron legs = The Roman Empire both East and West though East is more appropriate.
5) The feet of iron mixed with clay = The independent states that are now there.For this prophecy to be true the the Ottoman Empire either belongs to the iron legs or the feet of iron mixed with clay. The first Ottoman Emperor claimed his Empire was the Roman and according to prophecy the iron and clay could not be either domestic or foreign powers so I agree with him.
The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.…
Notice that the one that is must be Rome. Yet, one is yet to come. Then there is even an eighth and is of the seven. And it is the eighth that goes into destruction. And it is the Beast that was and was not which is also the eighth. While the other empires were succeeded, the Ottoman Empire actually died after WWII. Perhaps it is coming back.
Daniel isn’t wrong of course but Revelation is more focused on the end of time than Daniel is who has much to say about the future, but which is now our past. Revelation has more detail I think for the very end, so I tend to use that more when talking about the end.
Unless the beast encroaches in the territory covered in the prophesy then there is no room for it in the area as the kingdoms in that area are covered. Unless it has some unity with the Roman Empire Isis will fail in its endeavors to unify the kingdoms of that area. The Secularist that are also attempting to unify the area will also fail though they may be forge a weak confederacy.
Kerwin, do you think that the new empire just appears and whammo it takes over the old one. Or perhaps it takes time for them to grow including even slow encroachment. But the old is overtaken when the capital city or place of rule is overtaken and the old rule ends.
t8,
I know that Persia-Media overtook Neo-Babylon in a night and that Rome gradually swallowed Greece. Greece, actually Macedonia, took Peria-Media fairly quickly with Alexander the Great at the helm. The Ottoman Empire fell at the end of World WarII. There is not gap between them but there is an overlap, even if it is very small.
What I know is that the Byzantine Empire Lost Constantinople to the Latins then retook it and lost it again to the Turks. The ruler of the Turks claimed he had a right to the throne because he was married to a Byzantine princess. None of this is nothing different than was fairly common during the Roman Empire.
Up until its end Istanbul was known as Constantinople as well as Istanbul in the Empire’s official documents. In addition the Ottoman Empire in power to long to be a flash in the pan not worth mentioning in the prophecy of the Five Empires.
t8,
Notice that the one that is must be Rome. Yet, one is yet to come. Then there is even an eighth and is of the seven. And it is the eighth that goes into destruction. And it is the Beast that was and was not which is also the eighth. While the other empires were succeeded, the Ottoman Empire actually died after WWII. Perhaps it is coming back.
That would contradict the prophecy of the five empires and Scripture is not broken.
The Spanish Empire was also on the Mediterranean as was Carthage but the later fell before Revelations was written. There is other Empires like the Italian Empire and the Portuguese Empire. The Italian could be seen as a revival of the Roman Empire as it had its capital in Rome. Italy is now a member if the European Union but the layer’s more important city is in France. There is also the Holy Roman Empire that arose and fell twice but I am not sure either time it was near the Great Sea.
There is also the Ethiopian Empire which fell and then rose again. There is plenty of room for the beast around the Great Sea even if the area covered by the Empire of Babylon and it succeeding Empires is omitted. The Roman Empire owned and controlled the Great Sea so I cannot see where it would be omitted from the prophecy.
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