Islam

[2besee]

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 05 2012,12:57)

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 04 2012,18:10) 'Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' I was talking to a wise old man today and he made some good points. Summed up: You can have all of the knowledge in the world concerning the Bible, God, and Jesus, but it will not save you, knowledge will not save anyone. Plenty of people know or knew the bible, including the Jews, it did not save them. The only thing that will save you is to know Jesus, and to have a personal relationship with Him. He died for your sins, He died for you. 2 Beesee. Hosea 4:6   My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Proverbs 24:14   So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off. So that man was wrong. Agree? wakeup.

Wakeup no, the man was not wrong IMO.
He was saying that knowledge ALONE is not enough to actually KNOW God and the Son. Anyone can KNOW the scriptures. Just as they could know ANY book.

But, what did Jesus say:

“You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from men.
But I know that you have not the love of God within you.
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?”

It is okay to search the scriptures and gain an accurate knowledge which only comes from the teachings of the Holy Spirit (Jesus).

But there is more than that, you also have to KNOW the Father and the Son. You have to know their will.

It says that.
It says: “When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

[Wakeup]

2Beesee.

Seek and ye shall find.

Seek what? seek the scriptures,and we will find the Lord.
You have to eat my flesh Jesus said. how?
By feeding on the scriptures.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

wakeup.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 06 2012,08:13)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 05 2012,10:37) Just think about it you said everything is alreay known, Jesus died for the sins of the world, was resurrected and received into heaven…the end. But then why would Jesus say: John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now Hi bod. Everything was not known. The Holy Spirit was to come, and more was revealed to them, such as prophecies of things to come and persecutions of the saints, etc. In that same verse:John 16, “And when he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. “. Oswald Chambers: “Conviction of sin is one of the rarest things that ever strikes a man. It is the threshold of an understanding of God. Jesus Christ said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses the conscience and brings him into the presence of God, it is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God.” John 16 continued on: “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” Tell me, Bod, why would Jesus say all that he did, only to deceive them into thinking it was so, and then to come much later, through another man, and then claim that all he said was not true? it doesn't make sense and until you have a relationship with Jesus, then – it will not make sense. A lot of people can speak about the bible – even God and Jesus all day long – and not even know the Son or the Father. To know them is to have a personal relationship with them and the Holy Spirit of truth teaches you all things. Not man. Man and their teachings is the problem. Always has been.

Mst of what Jesus said has nothing to do with himself being persecuted at all so what are you talking about. His main message was Faith and Repentance not really much of anything about sacrifice in fact he says:

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Then he says this:

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Now if Jesus came to be the innocent “sacrifice” he would not have said this. Yes, Jesus said a lot of things but the question is what parts are you hearing. Jesus never condoned the act of killing any innocent person including himself and their is no great act of salvation in it.

Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty

This is what you accuse God of doing, something he made a law against.

Job 4:7
“Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished? Where were the upright ever destroyed?

[Wakeup]

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

[2besee]

Bod,  

I believe all that JESUS said and the other Disciples. You chose to believe instead in a MAN who came hundreds of years later, and told a different story.

Would you rather listen to the Word of God, or to a MAN??

Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
and makes flesh his arm,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
He is like a shrub in the desert,
and shall not see any good come.
He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness,
in an uninhabited salt land.
“Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose trust is the LORD.
He is like a tree planted by water,
that sends out its roots by the stream,
and does not fear when heat comes,
for its leaves remain green,
and is not anxious in the year of drought,
for it does not cease to bear fruit.”
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it?

Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed;
save me, and I shall be saved;
for thou art my praise.
Behold, they say to me,
“Where is the word of the LORD?
Let it come!”

Jeremiah 17.

[2besee]

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 06 2012,13:29)

2Beesee. Seek and ye shall find. Seek what? seek the scriptures,and we will find the Lord. You have to eat my flesh Jesus said. how? By feeding on the scriptures. John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  John 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  John 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. wakeup.

Wakeup, Catholics would say something different!

[Wakeup]

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 07 2012,16:28)

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 06 2012,13:29) 2Beesee. Seek and ye shall find. Seek what? seek the scriptures,and we will find the Lord. You have to eat my flesh Jesus said. how? By feeding on the scriptures. John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  John 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  John 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. wakeup. Wakeup, Catholics would say something different!

Beesee.

I know,the communion is the flesh of Christ,and the wine ,the blood of Christ.

[2besee]

Bod,

You were a Christian… That is different than being a Muslim who lives in a country or a home where they know nothing else.

What made you change?

Surely you saw that it was not telling the TRUTH?

[2besee]

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 07 2012,18:37)

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 07 2012,16:28) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 06 2012,13:29) 2Beesee. Seek and ye shall find. Seek what? seek the scriptures,and we will find the Lord. You have to eat my flesh Jesus said. how? By feeding on the scriptures. John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  John 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  John 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. wakeup. Wakeup, Catholics would say something different! Beesee. I know,the communion is the flesh of Christ,and the wine ,the blood of Christ.

Hi Wakeup, so are they (the Catholics) right or are they wrong in this regard? And what about all of the other denominations who say the same thing (which is… most of them)

[Wakeup]

2Beesee.

Its best to follow Jesus; he says eat my flesh.
The word of God is spirit,so we eat that word by seeking.
The more you eat, the more you become like him.

wakup.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 07 2012,16:41)

Bod, You were a Christian… That is different than being a Muslim who lives in a country or a home where they know nothing else. What made you change? Surely you saw that it was not telling the TRUTH?

I really didn't change at all because the Quran doesn't change anything it simply clarifies. It would be like watching a sequel to a movie in which the sequel fills in parts the previous movie/movies didn't reveal.

There is a huge difference in something being the truth and something being revealed. When Jesus came it was so surprising and disturbing to the Jews they preffered part 1 with Moses they didn't like there Hero being “upstaged” in their eyes and then it's like the third part is released and it seems to shocking to believe but it actually confirms the first 2 parts.

Imagine you see in a film a crucifixion and you cry in the movie that the star died and then came back to life but then another movie comes out and their is a twist to the story and he wasn't crucified although it appeared to have happened.

My point is I read it forward as an unfolding if you read it backwards you can't believe it and then when you go backwards again you can't believe Jesus is the Messiah.

So my faith in God let me see the TRUTH so I don't consider myself any less “Christian” because I follow the way of Christ and I follow him right into Submission to God.
I understand what God having “no Son” means it is not taking away from Jesus at all it is simply making a clear statement that God doesn't function like us HE doesn't reproduce because HE CREATES by COMMAND so Adam and Jesus are similar Miraculous creations they are not his two sons, but the Bible calls both of them sons of God and Christians simply select one over the other and decide with Adam it is just a figure of speech but with Jesus it is literal so how is that clear?

[Wakeup]

b,tharta.

Psalms 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:* they pierced my hands and my feet.*

Psalms 22:17 * I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.*

Psalms 22:18 *They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.*

Psalms 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Psalms 22:20 *Deliver my soul from the sword*; my darling from the power of the dog.

wakeup.

[2besee]

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 07 2012,21:45)

2Beesee.Seek and ye shall find. Seek what? seek the scriptures,and we will find the Lord.

Wakeup, God called me to the Scriptures years ago and I read the Scriptures as I developed a relationship with God, and although I have not read the Scriptures from beginning to end, and although I cannot do humongous posts and use big words (ha ha – the Apostles used simple words didn't they!), it does not effect my relationship with God. What has and continues to effect my relationship with God is when I lack the faith and when I neglect praying and also when I sin and when I disobey God.

Quote

John 6:53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  John 6:55   For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  John 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Can you explain that a bit more?

Quote

Its best to follow Jesus; he says eat my flesh. The word of God is spirit,so we eat that word by seeking. The more you eat, the more you become like him.

I do want to become more like Him. But what of all of the people who have read the Scriptures for decades and they are less like Him it seems, with the more that they read? Especially on Internet Forums!

Is Paul the problem?
Sometimes I wonder this, and I have since the beginning.

[2besee]

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 08 2012,08:45)

What has and continues to effect my relationship with God is when I lack the faith and when I neglect praying and also when I sin and when I disobey God.

I forgot to say, also 'naive' Christians who know their scriptures VERY well, coincidentally. You cannot say that they are only on 'milk'.

[2besee]

'Knowledge puffs up, love edifies.'

[2besee]

I will reply to your post later bod – after i have thought about it for a while.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 08 2012,02:25)

b,tharta. Psalms 22:15   My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  Psalms 22:16   For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:* they pierced my hands and my feet.*  Psalms 22:17  * I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.*  Psalms 22:18   *They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.*  Psalms 22:19   But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.  Psalms 22:20   *Deliver my soul from the sword*; my darling from the power of the dog. wakeup.

think about it everytime you hear words like “pierce” or “Crucify” you think of Jesus, right? Even a simple series of words like “nail”, “feet” and “hands” will bring about a crucifixion in the mind. it's the way our brains work we will fill
in the blanks ourselves even if the information is not about what we fill it in to mean.

for instance if I say the word “Arab” you might assume “Muslim” although there are arab Christians and Jews

Many people were raised from the dead but when you think of the concept “Jesus” not Lazarus pops into your mind when I say words like Holy War you think Islam although the term came from Christian Crusaders

But if this is a prophecy concerning Jesus then he is asking to be delivered from the sword and I am saying he was delivered

Psalms 22:21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!

[2besee]

Wakeup, what I mean is that i have been on Internet Christian Forums for a couple of years now on and off and I have encountered some quite bizarre behavior, and this is in Christians who seem to have absolute knowledge in the scriptures, to a scholarly level, however their behavior is anything 'but' Christian (although they can put on a nice face when it is in their favor to do so!)

You could rightly say that is is only in a few individuals and that they have personal problems and that it proves absolutely nothing..

however, if you look at some of the biggest forums that there are (for example, 'Carm') the same behavior is seen in the majority of the posters, and they are, again, all very knowledgeable in the Scriptures.

Another thing I have noticed is that the more that a person seems to read and study the scriptures, the more 'odd' their DOCTRINES can become (The opposite of the 'simplicity' which is 'in' Christ)

Do you see what I am saying?

It is just an observation and one which I am interested in knowing more about. “Knowledge Shall Increase” (Daniel). Has knowledge increased TOO much?

[2besee]

Take Bod for example:) How many years did you say that you studied the Bible? Joking.

I'm still thinking about what you said earlier, thinking takes time!

[bodhitharta]

Quote (2besee @ Nov. 08 2012,11:16)

Wakeup, what I mean is that i have been on Internet Christian Forums for a couple of years now on and off and I have encountered some quite bizarre behavior, and this is in Christians who seem to have absolute knowledge in the scriptures, to a scholarly level, however their behavior is anything 'but' Christian (although they can put on a nice face when it is in their favor to do so!) You could rightly say that is is only in a few individuals and that they have personal problems and that it proves absolutely nothing.. however, if you look at some of the biggest forums that there are (for example, 'Carm') the same behavior is seen in the majority of the posters, and they are, again, all very knowledgeable in the Scriptures. Another thing I have noticed is that the more that a person seems to read and study the scriptures, the more 'odd' their DOCTRINES can become (The opposite of the 'simplicity' which is 'in' Christ) Do you see what I am saying? It is just an observation and one which I am interested in knowing more about. “Knowledge Shall Increase” (Daniel). Has knowledge increased TOO much?

I agree, they start reading too much into the scriptures that are not there.

[Author]

Posts