Isaiah 14:9-14

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 26 2009,06:30)

To all,

Let's remember the context. I think it's a crucial point that Isaiah was written during the time of Babylonian captivity, where Isaiah was surrounded by Babylonian culture and religion. The Babylonians had a false god named Ishtar she was also known to be the morning star, what we call the planet Venus. To Isaiah the morning star was known as a False god, of the Babylonians. We see in the scriptures that the King said in his heart that he would ascend into heaven, that he would exalt his throne above the stars of God, he would ascend above the heights of the clouds, that he would be like the most high. RIGHT after this we see it being said that the KING shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the pit. We also see in the beginning that the people had great fear for the King, and right from the start of Isaiah the King is being referred to as being laid low.

The story that Irene believes is that an angel in heaven had the same name of the planet Venus and in heaven he said he would be like the Most high, so God kicked him out of heaven, making him literal fall from God’s righteous abode.

However the scriptures say a King would ascend to heaven and be like the most high. Right from the start we see that Irene’s doctrine is a work of delusion and lies. The individual that said to fall is said to be a KING, the word fallen angel does not even exist in the bible. The individual says that he will rise to heaven, not as Irene says that he is in heaven and being kicked out. Irene teaches that this angel caused war in heaven the heaven of God’s FIXED righteous abode, a place where it is not possible for sin to exist, neither war for that matter.

Irene’s main point is that no man except Jesus has been to heaven, therefore it would be impossible for a man to fall from heaven. As we have exposed the delusion of Irene’s doctrine, seeing things in scripture that aren’t really there, we can easily expose the distortion of Irene’s doctrine as well.

When we read through Isaiah, does scripture tell us that the King of Babylon was ever literally with God in His FIXED righteous kingdom, to lead us to believe then that his fall from heaven would then have to be a literal fall from God’s FIXED Home?

NO, of course not. The text specifically tells us that when the King grew a pompous heart, he needed to be brought down, VERSE 11. When the King thought in his heart that he would be like the Most High and ascend to heaven above the heights of the clouds, God would bring him down to Sheol, VERSE 13-15.

Isaiah 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. 8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down.” 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you– all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones– all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” 15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again. 21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities. 22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors, her offspring and descendants,” declares the Lord. 23 “I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord Almighty.

The KING was said to be the oppressor, NOT a fallen angel. The KING said he would ascend to the tops of the clouds, the KING was said to fall from heaven.

Yesterday I had a relaxing day sitting in the sun reading the book of Isaiah, I got up to chapter 16, and would like to share some scriptures I wrote down that I believe are of great significance here.

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up– And it shall be brought low— 13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, And upon all the oaks of Bashan; 14 Upon all the high mountains, And upon all the hills that are lifted up; 15 Upon every high tower, And upon every fortified wall; 16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish, And upon all the beautiful sloops. 17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day, 18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.

Let’s keep in mind that the morning star or planet Venus was not a fallen angel but was specifically known as a false god in Babylonia, therefore a figure of which YHWH would be inclined to destroy and bring down all false images made of her.

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it. 15 People shall be brought down, Each man shall be humbled, And the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled. 16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness. 17 Then the lambs shall feed in their pasture, And in the waste places of the fat ones strangers shall eat.
18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, And sin as if with a cart rope; 19 That say, “Let Him make speed and hasten His work, That we may see it; And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, That we may know it.” 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sig
ht!

Does this sound familiar? Just like the King who’s vanity rose when he tried to exalt himself as a god, and was brought low, we see here men having pompous hearts and needing to be humbled.

Irene teaches that there are invisible fallen angles that use their supernatural powers to have control over kings and their kingdoms, bringing calamity, cursing and darkness with God sitting around, watching and allowing them to do their wicked heart’s desires.

However scripture tells us that

Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”

I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

2Ch 20:6 and said: “O Lord God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?

Deut 8:16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do you good in the end– 17 then you say in your heart, 'My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.' 18 And you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth,that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

1 Chronicles 29:10 Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said: “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever. 11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, The power and the glory, The victory and the majesty; For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, And You are exalted as head over all. 12 Both riches and honor come from You, And You reign over all. In Your hand is power and might; In Your hand it is to make great And to give strength to all.

2 Chronicles 20:6 and said: “O Lord God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?

Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.

Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and guides them. 24 He takes away the understanding of the chiefs of the people of the earth, And makes them wander in a pathless wilderness.

Psalm 75:6 For exaltation comes neither from the east Nor from the west nor from the south. 7 But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another. 8 For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, And the wine is red; It is fully mixed, and He pours it out; Surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth Drain and drink down.

Jeremiah 27:4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel–thus you shall say to your masters: 5 'I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me. 6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son's son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,' says the Lord, 'with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand. 9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,' says the Lord, 'and they shall till it and dwell in it.' ” ' “

Let scripture OPEN your eyes Irene and Nick!!!

The King of Babylon and his reign was not under the power of a fallen angel or rebel spirits. God HIMSELF established the King’s rule, God’s work made Nebuchadnezzara rich and powerful king.

A fallen angel did not cause the King’s heart to rise in pride either, the scripture speaks nothing of the sort.

Daniel 4:28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king's mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.” 33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws.

There is no hidden dark kingdom made up of invisible rebel spirits that have control over the earth and the kings. God sets up kings, and He gives them power and might. These Kings as they rose to power do to God’s hand, they fall by God’s hand as well.

Pr 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

Mt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Pr 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

Man does not CHOOSE to trust in the influence of rebel spirit’s over God’s wisdom, man trusts in his OWN heart over God’s wisdom.

Man does not follow evil that comes from the imagination of rebel spirits,

Jer 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:

Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

The deceit comes from man’s own heart his own imagination, it does not come from man choosing to follow the deceit of rebel
spirits.

The King of Babylon in Isaiah 14 rose to power through the hand and will of God. The King however said in his heart that he rose to power because of his own greatness. God cast the King down removing his power and pride. The King was called by Isaiah the morning star after the false god of Babylon, for the king thought of himself as a god. As God brings down false images and gods, He brought down the King.

The scriptures tell us the story, our understanding should come from what the scriptures say.

When Jesus was in the world he was given more power and wisdom from God then any other messenger or king. We know Jesus was not crowned and given a throne at that time. Unlike Daniel and other messengers who were given prestigious positions under kings, Jesus was made lower then they as it says in Hebrews. Jesus was a servant, a servant to God and all of mankind paying our penalties of our sins, and dying a death he did not deserve. Jesus was not deserving to be made low cast to sheol.

Glory and Honor to our Father YHWH for establishing for us a righteous King, Jesus our brother and master, of whom our hearts earnestly wait for his return and leadership. Jodi

Irene I would really appreciate it if you could read through this post and show me specifically where there is error in regards to what I say about the scriptures I have posted.

Given the CONTENT in the scriptures I am curious as to how you will defend your position.

June 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm#134846

Participant

Look Jodi! I gave you the post about Isaiah 14:12. I to wait in hope that Christ will come soon and all truths will be taught then. We will have no more confusion. Satan is put away and it will be great. As far as your post I will look at it later, O.K. One more thing after I looked up Lucifer in the Encyclopedia, I really don't know who is right. It gives two idea's.
Peace and Love Irene

June 26, 2009 at 6:04 pm#134850

Participant

Irene I am confused as why you think that the encyclopedia would be able to give you scriptural truth. What makes you think that either one of them is right? I didn't realize that the encyclopedia was the end all book for laying out sides of scriptural debates, of which we should try and choose from to form our biblical beliefs.

I am not opposed to looking up history and learning about things that can help us better understand the nations mentioned in the bible. Maybe it would help if you also looked up morning star, and the planet Venus, and Babylonian religion. Like I mentioned in my post, Ishtar was the Babylonian goddess known also as the morning star. What you refer to as Lucifer, the Planet Venus, was a false god to the Babylonians. The Babylonian King in reference to Isaiah, had said that he would rise and be like God. So does that not make perfect sense then that Isaiah would refer to the king as the morning star, since the morning star was a false god, and so was the king?

I go by what makes the best sense given the scriptures, what you put forth IMO just makes no sense.

Thanks Irene, I hope you really will take the time to read through what I posted and especially the scriptures I gave. I think it would help if maybe you read through Isaiah from the beginning again too.

Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi

June 26, 2009 at 11:47 pm#134907

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 26 2009,18:35)

Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,12:43)

Jodi! First of all you don't believe that Satan is a being. Even though Jesus Himself was tested by him. Then in Isaiah 14:12 it talks about Lucifer. He is in the first article a bearer of Light and called morning star. Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created. The second Article is were Lucifer is a bishop. I thought that you read all? So you have two interpretation of Lucifer. Which article is right? That is my Question. Are the Church Fathers right or is he a bishop?
Peace and Love Irene

Irene, why would either one be right? Neither one of those tells us what Isaiah means, the book of Isaiah tells us what Isaiah means.

Read Isaiah from the beginning up to chapter 14 without any preconceived ideas. It's simple and clear. IMO only difficult for you because you've been blinded by false doctrine.

Irene you said, “Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created.”

Irene show me the scripture that says Jesus created morning stars also known as the Sons of God.

Isaiah calls the king the morning star which was called in Latin Lucifer, we in America call it Planet Venus. Isaiah does not call Lucifer, morning star. Irene you are very confused it seems. Lucifer is Latin for morning star. If you have a bible translated from Hebrew to Latin then Lucifer would be a proper translation, however from Hebrew to English, Lucifer does not belong.

Irene there were at least a few bishops, as I recall reading sometime back, that changed their names to Lucifer. Those men I guess saw themselves as bearers of light. In both Peter and Revelation, Jesus is called morning star, and churches who spoke Latin use to sing hymnals calling Jesus Lucifer.

The first article you posted shows the formation of the false doctrine. IMO chances are if Milton never wrote Paradise Lost, which became a very popular book, we might not even be having this conversation, because your indoctrinization might not have run so deep.

Please Irene read Isaiah from the beginning and read it for what it says and nothing else.

Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi

Jodi! First I have to say this, you said that Lucifer was not called morning star in Isaiah 14:12 It does say that he was the son of the morning. Job 38:7 So is that the same then morning star? The morning stars are called the son's of God. Who is in Heaven or was in Heaven at that time. Only the Word and the Angels. Now I will look at all other Scriptures, that you give.
Irene

June 27, 2009 at 9:51 am#134940

Tim Kraft

Participant

Quote (Gene @ June 27 2009,02:09)

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

Hey Gene: A question. Do you believe there is evil in heaven?
Do you believe there is evil in God? Shouldn't God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven? God's will is goodness. The fruit of the spirit is peace, love, goodness, kindness, etc.! There was no suffering before Adams choice.Wasn't the choice given to Adam to believe or create evil,bad,death or remain in good/life where he was? It seems to me that a choice was and is avaliable to mankind to choose to believe in good only and thereby create only good or believe in evil and thereby create evil in your life. You are what you believe! God said, I set before you life and death, choose life! God is good, God is light and in him is no darkness. If in the beginning was God and God is good then all that was is good. Man has the power to create like his father. Adam believed evil and then began to create more evil, fear, worry, stress, sin(the idea that what you do is good or bad in the eyes of God). It seems to me that the fall of man from God is the fall from believing good to believing evil! Just a thought. Love and peace to you, TK

June 27, 2009 at 3:37 pm#134957

Participant

TK What does Genesis teach us what happened, why did Adam listen to his wife? Who was it that deceived Eve? Who is that Serpent of old? Did Eve not become evil because she listened to the serpent? And Adam through Eve? All these Questions I say”Yes” to. Who was fighting with Michael in Heaven, and who was cast to the earth, and fall like lightening to the earth? All is listed in Rev.12:7. Ever since then mankind has struggled with the Evil one. He is called the Devil, Satan, Dragon that Serpent of old. All this happened before man was created. The serpent was in Paradise already then. One day we will not have him around anymore. First in the Millenium he will be chained for a thousand years. He will be loosed for a little while to test those that never knew evil, and many will go with Satan right into the Lake of Fire. The last to be destroyed is Death, who caused the death, Satan. From that time on. No more tears, and no more sorrow etc. To that time I am forever looking forward to.
Peace and Love Irene

June 27, 2009 at 4:05 pm#134959

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ June 27 2009,11:47)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 26 2009,18:35)

Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,12:43)

Irene, why would either one be right? Neither one of those tells us what Isaiah means, the book of Isaiah tells us what Isaiah means.

Read Isaiah from the beginning up to chapter 14 without any preconceived ideas. It's simple and clear. IMO only difficult for you because you've been blinded by false doctrine.

Irene you said, “Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created.”

Irene show me the scripture that says Jesus created morning stars also known as the Sons of God.

Please Irene read Isaiah from the beginning and read it for what it says and nothing else.

Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi

Good Morning Irene,

Let me clarify a little bit. What I have said is that the word Lucifer is a Latin word, so it should not be in the bible in the first place. Can we agree on that? Hebrew to English should not contain Latin words, right?

Lucifer in Latin means light bearer. It was a name they gave to the planet Venus, also called the morning star because it is the only planet kind of like the moon, you can see it with the naked eye in day time and night. The planet is visible around dusk and dawn looking like the moon giving off light because of it's positioning being close to the sun.

Here is where we see morning star used in scripture,

Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Re 2:28 I will also give him the morning star.

Re 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Jesus was called the morning star, this is why the early Latin church had hymnals where they called Jesus Lucifer, singing songs of praise to Lucifer, representing Jesus a bearer of light.

Bishops obviously saw themselves as bearers of light too since we know a few of them changed their names to Lucifer.

If what you believe were true Irene these folks probably didn't believe it at that time otherwise they would not have sang songs calling Jesus Lucifer or changed their names to Lucifer. You posted earlier about the book Paradise Lost, which is about Lucifer being a fallen angel. This book became very popular thus making the belief very popular and becoming widespread in churches. The nonexistent biblical support to the book, and the few handful of scriptures used to defend the idea of fallen angels, which in my opinion are poor for they take the scriptures completely out of context, added with other facts on the subject, all add up to me to expose the doctrine of fallen angels to be utterly false, and merely a tradition of man and not biblical truth.

When understanding Isaiah first and foremost I believe we should stick with what is given to us, which is that the text directly tells us that the King is being called by Isaiah morning star. Can we agree on that much Irene? Or is it your belief that verse 12 has nothing to do with the surrounding scriptures, and it is not speaking about the king at all? Or do you believe that this scripture has dual meaning and is suppose to represent the king and an angel?

I do not believe that there is any evidence that would suggest the scripture has dual meaning, given the context of the surrounding scriptures, I don't see anything that even hints at the fact there is dual meaning.

We all have to follow what makes the best sense to us. A handful of scriptures might make something seem clear, but we should always be searching the scriptures to continually test our understanding. You never know what you will find, a few more scriptures might change your understanding drawing light to the ones you thought you already firmly understood.

I hope you have, or are going to take the time to read those scriptures I posted. I'll be interested to hear what you think.

Thanks for being patient with me Irene, I know I have been harsh when it probably has not been necessary, so I hope you will forgive me. I am here to defend what I believe the truth is and expose what is IMO so clearly wrong, but I need to make sure I do it in a respectful manner, which at times I realize I probably have not done so, so I am sorry Irene.

Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi

June 27, 2009 at 6:02 pm#134969

Participant

Jodi………..The scriptures You have put forth clearly show the balance , but not all understand scripture, so they add their thought to what it actually says . I have noticed this a lot Here, people make assumptions based on Half truths and incorrect indoctrinations, but then again not all have the spirit of truth teaching them. This is how we know the children of GOD, from the Children of the error. Those who have GOD'S spirit are able to perceive the truth, while those who don't are decieved by the teachings of this world. But we are required to sow only and let the seed fall where it may, as Jesus did also. So don't get discouraged Jodi, we will recieve in the end if we continue and preserver unto the end Sis. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………..gene

June 27, 2009 at 6:29 pm#134970

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 27 2009,21:51)

Quote (Gene @ June 27 2009,02:09)

Tim Kraft……….Evil and Good are two opposites and they are needed to explain one another, as up explains what down is and down explains what up is. Both are needed in order to gives us understanding, the same with good and evil , or left and right, north and south, everything is understood through contrasting the difference, so good needs evil in order to be understood, GOD did not permit all this suffering without purpose, it is all need for our learning and development, it is the will of Good being worked out here. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

Tim Kraft……… We are told GOD created (EVERYTHING) and that includes Evil, as well as GOOD, who do you think Placed the tree of Good and Evil in the garden in the first place, was it not GOd himself. If you could understand that (LIFE) consists of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, you could easily understand this, GOD said “look the man has become as we are (KNOWING) Good AND EVIL”. Both are required to be like GOD is, we are his children, so if this understanding is not important for our maturity then why would he allow it in the first place. Most present it as if GOd some how could not prevent it if he Wanted to, it was man own doing, but scripture shows this is not true, GOD Knew full well Man would fall and experience both good and evil, He even cursed the earth for the (SAKE) of Man. Tim its all about GOD teaching us right from wrong our lives here are for learning to appreciate The FATHER and each other also, to learn to love the good and hate the evil, all are learned behaviors given to us by GOD Himself and He takes full responsibility for it all too. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………….gene

June 28, 2009 at 10:02 am#135108

Participant

Jodi Prove were the Church Hymnals call Jesus Lucifer? We came out of the Catholic Church and we had all in Latin, but nowhere was Jesus ever called Lucifer. That name is what Satan was before He became vain.
Jodi stop calling me names. I have had it with you and Gene. I don;tr have any Doctrine to call my own. You don't have to answer me again, CAUSE I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU.
Good-bye.
Irene

June 28, 2009 at 10:24 am#135109

Tim Kraft

Participant

Gene: IMO, whatever eternal God was, God is, and whatever is, God is being,whatever God is being, God will be! This is the eternal force of all existence I refer to as God. I would not no the Truth of God without the revelation from my Lord, Jesus.The old covenant revealed mostly a mean jealous God commanding and pillaging and killing at will. It reflected in the church. Jesus revealed that God is love. Whatever we believe love is, is how we will see or percieve God to be. God is what each individual believes him to be. In the way that we percieve God that is the way our lives will reflect. When man chose to believe there was not only good feelings in life but evil feelings in life he split his perception of God into two gods. Thoughts come first and are percieved by each individual until they are formed into a belief within. As a man believeth, so he is.We have free will to perceive and believe any way we choose and live our lives according to those beliefs. If God is teaching us anything its that we are creators like him and what we think on and ponder and meditate unto believing will manifest in our lives. It may be that life is a test to see if we can create ourselves physically and then return to love from believing in evil and thereby creating evil in our lives. Can we return to ONENESS in God in Love. If we see/perceive God as love we are one with him. If we perceive God as light and in him is no darkness, then we are enlightened. Gene, God did not curse the ground, it was Adams choice of beliefs that cursed ground. If there is evil in God and we are to hate evil then are we to hate God? IMO, God is still offering the same deal now, …I set before you life and death, you choose, but I recomend you choose life…
I will ask again, is there evil in Heaven? Will someone who believes in evil enter heaven.
Do you believe there is evil in God?
Whatever God is, as his sons, we should try to be like, to the best of our ability (insight,knowledge,understanding)!
As long as we believe evil, we will experience evil in our lives! IMO, Love to all, TK

June 28, 2009 at 2:15 pm#135119

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ June 28 2009,22:02)

Irene I will look to see were I found the articles that discussed the ancient hymnals, where they called Jesus Lucifer.

Lucifer was originally a Latin word meaning “light-bearer” (from lux, “light”, and ferre, “to bear, bring”)

Lucifer in Latin meant light-bearer, NOT A PROPER NAME for an angel.

Irene CAN YOU ADMIT to that SIMPLE FACT!

Is it to hard to connect the fact that in Latin people understood the word as light-bearer and that is why they would call Jesus Lucifer?

Why do you think a bishop would change his name to Lucifer? OBVIOUSLY because it meant light bearer, NOT fallen angel.

Irene, in a Latin translated bible it is perfectly acceptable to have the name Lucifer to symbolize the king.

Irene what would you prefer, have me say I believe your in error on this matter, I believe you see things in the bible that are not there? Would that be easier for you to handle, instead of me saying that your understanding is a lie and your belief is a work of delusion?

If someone commented on my understanding that way, it would fire me up to post back and PROPERLY DEFEND my belief so that everyone on this forum would know where I was coming from. However your more concerned with your opinion of my attitude then standing up for what you believe in. I guess that says a lot right there. My argument is not difficult, the scriptures I gave defending my position are not difficult, so why can you not counteract and defend specifically what I have posted? It seems apparent that you can't, and you, just like Georg, are hiding behind the excuse that you won't talk to me because you don't like my attitude. Very convenient, don't you think?

Irene there is one thing for certain I am learning from conversing with you and that is YHWH certainly does allow people's blindness to run deep, that even a common sense approach to reading the scriptures is impossible to some. Just my opinion of course.

June 28, 2009 at 2:36 pm#135121

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ June 22 2009,08:31)

Isaih 14:9 says this:” Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming, It stirs up the dead for you. All the chief ones of the earth: It has raised up their thrones
All the Kings of the nation.

verse 10 They all speak to you. Have you also become so weak as we. Have you become like us?

verse 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol , And the sound of your stringed instrument, The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.

verse 12 ” How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You have weakend the nations!

verse 13 For you have said in your heart:” I will acend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north:

I will acend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.

Question to you all is, who did fall from Heaven. Jesus said
that nobody has ascended to heaven, except He who came from heaven. So IMO it could not be a man. It was Satan who fell from Heaven like Lightnimng, was it not? So how can it be a man in these verses?
Peace and Love Irene

The scriptures say that it is a man,

so the better question would be, what evidence do we have that the scripture has dual representation, where it's not only talking about the king but someone else as well?

Isaiah 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. 8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down.” 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you– all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones– all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” 15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot,

So to all, is there ANY room in the above scriptures that would have us believe that the taunt against the King is also against someone else? Personally I see absolutely nothing in the content above that would suggest so.

June 28, 2009 at 3:01 pm#135124

Participant

Jodi! And it amazes me no matter what it is, you have to call me something. Why? No man as ascended to Heaven. If we can't take that Scripture literally, that Lucifer fell from Heaven. Rev. 12:7-9 and Isaiah 14:12-15 Then what?
The man fell from Heaven? The fall took place before man ever came into the Picture. When man was created the serpent already was in Paradise. So man could have not done so. Or are you going to interpret the whole sentence. Why would it say that Lucifer fell from Heaven, if it means a Society?
I do know that the Mass was written in Latin, but the Bible no Laymen were aloud to have a Bible at the time. Nobody questioned the Priest. So we were very uninformed. That is why Georg and I are so thankful to God that He called us out of that Church. And us going back and forth about Lucifer who he became. That is something the Catholic Church taught us, who Lucifer was. It is really ridiculous to keep on going on about this. It has nothing to do with our Salvation,
and it is no Doctrine.
Peace and Love Irene

June 28, 2009 at 3:05 pm#135125

Participant

Jodi………..you have rightly presented it, those who love (TRUTH) can easily see it and understand it. But many have been indoctrinated into the False religion of the Apostate churches and simply can not figure that out, that is amazing to me, how something can be presented so clear and some choose to overlook such important fact in the scriptures. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

June 28, 2009 at 3:15 pm#135126

Participant

Tim Kraft………..It is good to have an opinion about something , but those opinions must be scripturally backed up. Scripture tells that GOD crated everything, that exists, and that would include the knowledge of good and evil. you also have a belief that we have (FREE) Wills, but nowhere in scripture is that stated. We are all products of our thinking and every thought you have you recieved from some source and these thought are what you chose from, nothing Free about it , we do not save ourselves by our so-called free will choices as most would like to think . We are caused to choose what is right, by the influencing of GOD'S GRACE, “for by GRACE are you saved and that not of or from yourselves, it is a (GIFT) of GOD”. The word GRACE means GOD”S influencing on our hearts and minds, nothing (FREE) about it, Just cause and effect. Again reasoning is good but if it does not agree with scripture then it is just supposition. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

June 28, 2009 at 5:00 pm#135136

Participant

Quote (Gene @ June 29 2009,03:05)

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

Gene, your right, and when a person shows a complete lack of reasoning, It's definitely time to no longer debate with them on the subject. Did you ever wonder how many times Irene is going to tell us that she is never going to speak to us again before she actually keeps her word? I don't think she ever will. Not quite sure why she keeps saying it when she knows she doesn't mean it?

Love to you, Jodi

June 29, 2009 at 2:33 pm#135202