- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,07:53) Hi Jodi,
You think a tall tree reaching to the heavens actually reached heaven before it fell?
Boasting of vision is unwise.
Nick the scripture flat out says that the tree REACHED the heavens. It says that it reached the heavens, so do I believe that it actually did? Huh ya!
The interpretation of the dream says,
20 The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth,
22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.
The king reached a HIGH position of authority and power, of which YHWH gave him, that is what the scriptures are referring to when it says that the King reached the heavens, the kings greatness reached the heavens.
We are told that the Kings pride rose, the king thought HIGHLY of himself, he said his power came through himself, and did not give YHWH credit. So God the scriptures say cut him down. The tree that reached the heavens fell, there was a falling of the tree from heaven. What that all means is rather obvious, if you bother to read what the scriptures actually say. The king fell from heaven, meaning he lost his high position, he lost his authority and power.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,08:44) Hi Jodi,
So a man reached heaven itself?
You are alone in that thought.Nick………….Its symbolic language, you cant understand it thinking from a carnal view, it symbolic.
peace and love………………………..gene
Jodi and Gene! Since we are so confused about Isaiah 14:12 I did pray about it. And so I looked all up.
First I looked in the Hebrew and Greek Dictionary,before I did not think to look in the Strong's Concordance. Which I just did not to long ago. In it says Lucifer Son of the morning. Then I looked in Job 38:7 It says there :” When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” We do know that the Angels are sons of God. It is not symbolic language at all in Isaiah 14:12. One more thing, nowhere in the bible will you find Lucifer mentioned. If it were a Babylonian King would you not think somewhere else would it say so. No King is a son of the morning either. They are Angels however.
Peace and Love IreneTo all! There are two articles in the Britannia Encyclopedia has this to say about Lucifer.
Page 397 Lucifer ( Greek Phosphorous, “light bearer, the morning star; i.e. the planet Venus at dawn. Personified as a male figure bearing a torch. Lucifer almost has no legend, but in Poetry Often herald of the dawn. St. Jerome translated as ” Lucifer” the metaphorical reference( Hebrew, shinning one) to the fall of the Babylonian in Is. 14:12. The Church Fathers interpreted the Word in Luke 10:8 ” I saw Satan fall like Lightening from heaven,” as a reference to this passage in Isaiah, so that
” Lucifer” came to be regarded as the name of Satan before His fall. It is used by Milton in Paradise Lost, and the idea underlies the proverbial phrase ” proud as Lucifer.” H.W.Pa.The other article says this:
Lucifer ( 370/371,) bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, was a supporter of Athanasius 9 (g.v.) and the founder of a small sect named after him. Nothing is known of his life until after the Arianizing Councel of Arlie's in 353, when he tried to obtain a new and impartial council. At the council of Milan (355) he refused to sign the condemnation of Atlanasium, and was exiled to the east, where he wrote polemica tracts remarkable more for their biolent language against Constants 11 than correctness and wealth of doctrine. His quotation from Scripture however, are of value for the study of the Old Latin text. Of
his letters to survive.
Allowed by Julian's edit to return home, Lucifer an invitation to attend the synod of Alexandria (362)
and passed through Antioch, where he refused to recognize Melita's as bishop, and consecrated Paulina's, leader of the Eustachian faction, in his stead, thus prolonging the Antiochene schism for many
years.9 see Meletius Saint of Antioch), Lucifer refused ecclesiastical fellowship with all those who signed, even under duress, the Arianizing formula of Rimini (359) as he considered them fallen from their clerical dignity through heresy. The short lived sect which he founded comprised small groups in Spain, Gail and even Rome.So this is were I got what I wrote from the Catholic Church. Is it a myth or is it truth? We all have to make up our own minds what to belief. As far as I am concerned there is no real prove either way.
Peace and Love Irene
To all,
Let's remember the context. I think it's a crucial point that Isaiah was written during the time of Babylonian captivity, where Isaiah was surrounded by Babylonian culture and religion. The Babylonians had a false god named Ishtar she was also known to be the morning star, what we call the planet Venus. To Isaiah the morning star was known as a False god, of the Babylonians. We see in the scriptures that the King said in his heart that he would ascend into heaven, that he would exalt his throne above the stars of God, he would ascend above the heights of the clouds, that he would be like the most high. RIGHT after this we see it being said that the KING shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the pit. We also see in the beginning that the people had great fear for the King, and right from the start of Isaiah the King is being referred to as being laid low.
The story that Irene believes is that an angel in heaven had the same name of the planet Venus and in heaven he said he would be like the Most high, so God kicked him out of heaven, making him literal fall from God’s righteous abode.
However the scriptures say a King would ascend to heaven and be like the most high. Right from the start we see that Irene’s doctrine is a work of delusion and lies. The individual that said to fall is said to be a KING, the word fallen angel does not even exist in the bible. The individual says that he will rise to heaven, not as Irene says that he is in heaven and being kicked out. Irene teaches that this angel caused war in heaven the heaven of God’s FIXED righteous abode, a place where it is not possible for sin to exist, neither war for that matter.
Irene’s main point is that no man except Jesus has been to heaven, therefore it would be impossible for a man to fall from heaven. As we have exposed the delusion of Irene’s doctrine, seeing things in scripture that aren’t really there, we can easily expose the distortion of Irene’s doctrine as well.
When we read through Isaiah, does scripture tell us that the King of Babylon was ever literally with God in His FIXED righteous kingdom, to lead us to believe then that his fall from heaven would then have to be a literal fall from God’s FIXED Home?
NO, of course not. The text specifically tells us that when the King grew a pompous heart, he needed to be brought down, VERSE 11. When the King thought in his heart that he would be like the Most High and ascend to heaven above the heights of the clouds, God would bring him down to Sheol, VERSE 13-15.
Isaiah 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. 8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down.” 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you– all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones– all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” 15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again. 21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities. 22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors, her offspring and descendants,” declares the Lord. 23 “I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord Almighty.
The KING was said to be the oppressor, NOT a fallen angel. The KING said he would ascend to the tops of the clouds, the KING was said to fall from heaven.
Yesterday I had a relaxing day sitting in the sun reading the book of Isaiah, I got up to chapter 16, and would like to share some scriptures I wrote down that I believe are of great significance here.
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up– And it shall be brought low— 13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, And upon all the oaks of Bashan; 14 Upon all the high mountains, And upon all the hills that are lifted up; 15 Upon every high tower, And upon every fortified wall; 16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish, And upon all the beautiful sloops. 17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day, 18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
Let’s keep in mind that the morning star or planet Venus was not a fallen angel but was specifically known as a false god in Babylonia, therefore a figure of which YHWH would be inclined to destroy and bring down all false images made of her.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. 14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it. 15 People shall be brought down, Each man shall be humbled, And the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled. 16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness. 17 Then the lambs shall feed in their pasture, And in the waste places of the fat ones strangers shall eat.
18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, And sin as if with a cart rope; 19 That say, “Let Him make speed and hasten His work, That we may see it; And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, That we may know it.” 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!Does this sound familiar? Just like the King who’s vanity rose when he tried to exalt himself as a god, and was brought low, we see here men having pompous hearts and needing to be humbled.
Irene t
eaches that there are invisible fallen angles that use their supernatural powers to have control over kings and their kingdoms, bringing calamity, cursing and darkness with God sitting around, watching and allowing them to do their wicked heart’s desires.However scripture tells us that
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
2Ch 20:6 and said: “O Lord God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?
Deut 8:16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do you good in the end– 17 then you say in your heart, 'My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.' 18 And you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth,that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.
1 Chronicles 29:10 Therefore David blessed the Lord before all the assembly; and David said: “Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever. 11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, The power and the glory, The victory and the majesty; For all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, And You are exalted as head over all. 12 Both riches and honor come from You, And You reign over all. In Your hand is power and might; In Your hand it is to make great And to give strength to all.
2 Chronicles 20:6 and said: “O Lord God of our fathers, are You not God in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?
Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.
Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and guides them. 24 He takes away the understanding of the chiefs of the people of the earth, And makes them wander in a pathless wilderness.
Psalm 75:6 For exaltation comes neither from the east Nor from the west nor from the south. 7 But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another. 8 For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, And the wine is red; It is fully mixed, and He pours it out; Surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth Drain and drink down.
Jeremiah 27:4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel–thus you shall say to your masters: 5 'I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me. 6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son's son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,' says the Lord, 'with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand. 9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,' says the Lord, 'and they shall till it and dwell in it.' ” ' “
Let scripture OPEN your eyes Irene and Nick!!!
The King of Babylon and his reign was not under the power of a fallen angel or rebel spirits. God HIMSELF established the King’s rule, God’s work made Nebuchadnezzara rich and powerful king.
A fallen angel did not cause the King’s heart to rise in pride either, the scripture speaks nothing of the sort.
Daniel 4:28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king's mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.” 33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws.
There is no hidden dark kingdom made up of invisible rebel spirits that have control over the earth and the kings. God sets up kings, and He gives them power and might. These Kings as they rose to power do to God’s hand, they fall by God’s hand as well.
Pr 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Mt 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Pr 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
Man does not CHOOSE to trust in the influence of rebel spirit’s over God’s wisdom, man trusts in his OWN heart over God’s wisdom.
Man does not follow evil that comes from the imagination of rebel spirits,
Jer 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
The deceit comes from man’s own heart his own imagination, it does not come from man choosing to follow the deceit of rebel spirits.
The King of Babylon in Isaiah 14 rose to power through the hand and will of God. The King however said in his heart that he rose to power because of his own greatness. God cast the King down removing his po
wer and pride. The King was called by Isaiah the morning star after the false god of Babylon, for the king thought of himself as a god. As God brings down false images and gods, He brought down the King.The scriptures tell us the story, our understanding should come from what the scriptures say.
When Jesus was in the world he was given more power and wisdom from God then any other messenger or king. We know Jesus was not crowned and given a throne at that time. Unlike Daniel and other messengers who were given prestigious positions under kings, Jesus was made lower then they as it says in Hebrews. Jesus was a servant, a servant to God and all of mankind paying our penalties of our sins, and dying a death he did not deserve. Jesus was not deserving to be made low cast to sheol.
Glory and Honor to our Father YHWH for establishing for us a righteous King, Jesus our brother and master, of whom our hearts earnestly wait for his return and leadership. Jodi
Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,05:18) To all! There are two articles in the Britannia Encyclopedia has this to say about Lucifer.
Page 397 Lucifer ( Greek Phosphorous, “light bearer, the morning star; i.e. the planet Venus at dawn. Personified as a male figure bearing a torch. Lucifer almost has no legend, but in Poetry Often herald of the dawn. St. Jerome translated as ” Lucifer” the metaphorical reference( Hebrew, shinning one) to the fall of the Babylonian in Is. 14:12. The Church Fathers interpreted the Word in Luke 10:8 ” I saw Satan fall like Lightening from heaven,” as a reference to this passage in Isaiah, so that
” Lucifer” came to be regarded as the name of Satan before His fall. It is used by Milton in Paradise Lost, and the idea underlies the proverbial phrase ” proud as Lucifer.” H.W.Pa.The other article says this:
Lucifer ( 370/371,) bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, was a supporter of Athanasius 9 (g.v.) and the founder of a small sect named after him. Nothing is known of his life until after the Arianizing Councel of Arlie's in 353, when he tried to obtain a new and impartial council. At the council of Milan (355) he refused to sign the condemnation of Atlanasium, and was exiled to the east, where he wrote polemica tracts remarkable more for their biolent language against Constants 11 than correctness and wealth of doctrine. His quotation from Scripture however, are of value for the study of the Old Latin text. Of
his letters to survive.
Allowed by Julian's edit to return home, Lucifer an invitation to attend the synod of Alexandria (362)
and passed through Antioch, where he refused to recognize Melita's as bishop, and consecrated Paulina's, leader of the Eustachian faction, in his stead, thus prolonging the Antiochene schism for many
years.9 see Meletius Saint of Antioch), Lucifer refused ecclesiastical fellowship with all those who signed, even under duress, the Arianizing formula of Rimini (359) as he considered them fallen from their clerical dignity through heresy. The short lived sect which he founded comprised small groups in Spain, Gail and even Rome.So this is were I got what I wrote from the Catholic Church. Is it a myth or is it truth? We all have to make up our own minds what to belief. As far as I am concerned there is no real prove either way.
Peace and Love Irene
So Irene could you clarify for us exactly what at this point your not quite sure of?Scripture shows that man's imagination is the FOUNDER of evil ways, and his heart chooses to follow that imagination. Scripture says that man invents the evil.
What scripture never shows is the idea that rebel spirits through their imaginations create evil ways and then secretly place those ideas into man and then men choose to follow those ideas.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2009,08:13) Hi Jodi,
It still is.
Satan uses his dominion well.
So you agree then that the adversary that man chooses to follow, leading him to evil, comes from within his own imagination?If scripture says that our own imagination causes us to sin, then our adversary is our own imagination, thus the dominion or dwelling of the adversary is in our brain.
Sin is not said to come from a rebel spirit setting up shop in our brain. The ORIGIN of our adversary is shown to come from inside us. The sin that is produced from our own imaginations has dominion over not only us but it influences and rules over our societies as well.
Hi Jodi,
The imagination of men is the most obvious expression of the sin that dwells within.
We need the mind of Christ.Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 26 2009,06:47) Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,05:18) To all! There are two articles in the Britannia Encyclopedia has this to say about Lucifer.
Page 397 Lucifer ( Greek Phosphorous, “light bearer, the morning star; i.e. the planet Venus at dawn. Personified as a male figure bearing a torch. Lucifer almost has no legend, but in Poetry Often herald of the dawn. St. Jerome translated as ” Lucifer” the metaphorical reference( Hebrew, shinning one) to the fall of the Babylonian in Is. 14:12. The Church Fathers interpreted the Word in Luke 10:8 ” I saw Satan fall like Lightening from heaven,” as a reference to this passage in Isaiah, so that
” Lucifer” came to be regarded as the name of Satan before His fall. It is used by Milton in Paradise Lost, and the idea underlies the proverbial phrase ” proud as Lucifer.” H.W.Pa.The other article says this:
Lucifer ( 370/371,) bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, was a supporter of Athanasius 9 (g.v.) and the founder of a small sect named after him. Nothing is known of his life until after the Arianizing Councel of Arlie's in 353, when he tried to obtain a new and impartial council. At the council of Milan (355) he refused to sign the condemnation of Atlanasium, and was exiled to the east, where he wrote polemica tracts remarkable more for their biolent language against Constants 11 than correctness and wealth of doctrine. His quotation from Scripture however, are of value for the study of the Old Latin text. Of
his letters to survive.
Allowed by Julian's edit to return home, Lucifer an invitation to attend the synod of Alexandria (362)
and passed through Antioch, where he refused to recognize Melita's as bishop, and consecrated Paulina's, leader of the Eustachian faction, in his stead, thus prolonging the Antiochene schism for many
years.9 see Meletius Saint of Antioch), Lucifer refused ecclesiastical fellowship with all those who signed, even under duress, the Arianizing formula of Rimini (359) as he considered them fallen from their clerical dignity through heresy. The short lived sect which he founded comprised small groups in Spain, Gail and even Rome.So this is were I got what I wrote from the Catholic Church. Is it a myth or is it truth? We all have to make up our own minds what to belief. As far as I am concerned there is no real prove either way.
Peace and Love Irene
So Irene could you clarify for us exactly what at this point your not quite sure of?
Jodi! Whatever you want to belief is your problem. Whatever I want to believe is mine. Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that it is a Babylonian King that Isaiah 14:12 is talking about? Or are the Church Fathers right?
IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,08:56) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 26 2009,06:47) Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,05:18) To all! There are two articles in the Britannia Encyclopedia has this to say about Lucifer.
Page 397 Lucifer ( Greek Phosphorous, “light bearer, the morning star; i.e. the planet Venus at dawn. Personified as a male figure bearing a torch. Lucifer almost has no legend, but in Poetry Often herald of the dawn. St. Jerome translated as ” Lucifer” the metaphorical reference( Hebrew, shinning one) to the fall of the Babylonian in Is. 14:12. The Church Fathers interpreted the Word in Luke 10:8 ” I saw Satan fall like Lightening from heaven,” as a reference to this passage in Isaiah, so that
” Lucifer” came to be regarded as the name of Satan before His fall. It is used by Milton in Paradise Lost, and the idea underlies the proverbial phrase ” proud as Lucifer.” H.W.Pa.The other article says this:
Lucifer ( 370/371,) bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, was a supporter of Athanasius 9 (g.v.) and the founder of a small sect named after him. Nothing is known of his life until after the Arianizing Councel of Arlie's in 353, when he tried to obtain a new and impartial council. At the council of Milan (355) he refused to sign the condemnation of Atlanasium, and was exiled to the east, where he wrote polemica tracts remarkable more for their biolent language against Constants 11 than correctness and wealth of doctrine. His quotation from Scripture however, are of value for the study of the Old Latin text. Of
his letters to survive.
Allowed by Julian's edit to return home, Lucifer an invitation to attend the synod of Alexandria (362)
and passed through Antioch, where he refused to recognize Melita's as bishop, and consecrated Paulina's, leader of the Eustachian faction, in his stead, thus prolonging the Antiochene schism for many
years.9 see Meletius Saint of Antioch), Lucifer refused ecclesiastical fellowship with all those who signed, even under duress, the Arianizing formula of Rimini (359) as he considered them fallen from their clerical dignity through heresy. The short lived sect which he founded comprised small groups in Spain, Gail and even Rome.So this is were I got what I wrote from the Catholic Church. Is it a myth or is it truth? We all have to make up our own minds what to belief. As far as I am concerned there is no real prove either way.
Peace and Love Irene
So Irene could you clarify for us exactly what at this point your not quite sure of?
Jodi! Whatever you want to belief is your problem. Whatever I want to believe is mine. Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that it is a Babylonian King that Isaiah 14:12 is talking about? Or are the Church Fathers right?
Irene
Honestly Irene, I believe that I proved it without a shadow of doubt in my last post.read it slowly and show me specifically where you see I am in error.
That would be great, thanks.
Peace to you and Georg, Jodi
Jodi! First of all you don't believe that Satan is a being. Even though Jesus Himself was tested by him. Then in Isaiah 14:12 it talks about Lucifer. He is in the first article a bearer of Light and called morning star. Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created. The second Article is were Lucifer is a bishop. I thought that you read all? So you have two interpretation of Lucifer. Which article is right? That is my Question. Are the Church Fathers right or is he a bishop?
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,12:43) Jodi! First of all you don't believe that Satan is a being. Even though Jesus Himself was tested by him. Then in Isaiah 14:12 it talks about Lucifer. He is in the first article a bearer of Light and called morning star. Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created. The second Article is were Lucifer is a bishop. I thought that you read all? So you have two interpretation of Lucifer. Which article is right? That is my Question. Are the Church Fathers right or is he a bishop?
Peace and Love Irene
Irene, why would either one be right? Neither one of those tells us what Isaiah means, the book of Isaiah tells us what Isaiah means.Read Isaiah from the beginning up to chapter 14 without any preconceived ideas. It's simple and clear. IMO only difficult for you because you've been blinded by false doctrine.
Irene you said, “Isaiah too calls him a morning star. Morning stars are the Sons of God that were the first beings that Jesus created.”
Irene show me the scripture that says Jesus created morning stars also known as the Sons of God.
Isaiah calls the king the morning star which was called in Latin Lucifer, we in America call it Planet Venus. Isaiah does not call Lucifer, morning star. Irene you are very confused it seems. Lucifer is Latin for morning star. If you have a bible translated from Hebrew to Latin then Lucifer would be a proper translation, however from Hebrew to English, Lucifer does not belong.
Irene there were at least a few bishops, as I recall reading sometime back, that changed their names to Lucifer. Those men I guess saw themselves as bearers of light. In both Peter and Revelation, Jesus is called morning star, and churches who spoke Latin use to sing hymnals calling Jesus Lucifer.
The first article you posted shows the formation of the false doctrine. IMO chances are if Milton never wrote Paradise Lost, which became a very popular book, we might not even be having this conversation, because your indoctrinization might not have run so deep.
Please Irene read Isaiah from the beginning and read it for what it says and nothing else.
Blessings to you and Georg, Jodi
To all: Maybe if we use the definition for demons, the devil, and satan it will help to clairify the meaning intended in the scriptures. These are deceptive thoughts. Incorrect thinking. Lies! The war we have is in our mind for the Truth from God. They are spirit, as are all thought, but can come in the form of an human that is thinking or teaching incorrectly. Thoughts are Angels or messengers.They paint pictures in the mind through vibrations. When Adam split the Truth into good & evil the wars began. Adam created evil by accepting it as Truth. Then he began to fall away from God in his mind by creating thoughts that were contrary to the Truth of God. Adam established the thought of sin being an act of doing good or bad.There was only good in Truth. Adam was making judgements as to good and bad unto God. God never said there was sin, Adam did. From that point mankind began to fall away from the Truth and loose connection with God. IN THEIR MINDS THEY LOST CONNECTION, NOT IN TRUTH! Mankind began to believe themselves away from God. Hence, the church was established and the fall continued until Jesus came to set things (words, doctrines) straight.The beliefs in God taught in the church were wrong. They were lost in sin. They were lost sheep. If you look at the old church, most everything they believed was incorrect,lies, devil doctrine. Jesus came to teach the Truth and show the way of Truth to God. One thing to know about thoughts and words that has been scientifically proven is that all things vibrate at a certain frequency. Nothing is solid without movement. Even granite rock vibrates at the molecular level.The highest thoughts vibrate at the speed of light. God is light. God thoughts are always creative, loving, peaceful etc. Thoughts cannot make you do anything. Yet if you contemplate low vibration thoughts and meditate and incubate them they will draw that frequency of thought into manifestation in your life.Jesus said, …”as man believeth in his heart, so he is…”! Think Love, TK
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
