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Isaih 14:9 says this:” Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming, It stirs up the dead for you. All the chief ones of the earth: It has raised up their thrones
All the Kings of the nation.verse 10 They all speak to you. Have you also become so weak as we. Have you become like us?
verse 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol , And the sound of your stringed instrument, The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.
verse 12 ” How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You have weakend the nations!verse 13 For you have said in your heart:” I will acend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north:
I will acend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.
Question to you all is, who did fall from Heaven. Jesus said
that nobody has ascended to heaven, except He who came from heaven. So IMO it could not be a man. It was Satan who fell from Heaven like Lightnimng, was it not? So how can it be a man in these verses?
Peace and Love IreneIrene……..So what you are saying is you do not believe scripture the plainly says He was a MAN. But Scripture does not agree with you on this. IMO
peace and love to you and Gorge………………………gene
Quote (Cindy @ June 22 2009,08:31) Isaih 14:9 says this:” Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming, It stirs up the dead for you. All the chief ones of the earth: It has raised up their thrones
All the Kings of the nation.verse 10 They all speak to you. Have you also become so weak as we. Have you become like us?
verse 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol , And the sound of your stringed instrument, The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.
verse 12 ” How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You have weakend the nations!verse 13 For you have said in your heart:” I will acend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north:
I will acend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.
Question to you all is, who did fall from Heaven. Jesus said
that nobody has ascended to heaven, except He who came from heaven. So IMO it could not be a man. It was Satan who fell from Heaven like Lightnimng, was it not? So how can it be a man in these verses?
Peace and Love Irene
I see where your hung up Irene,Because Jesus said no one ascended to heaven then how could a man go up to heaven to then be able to fall from heaven.
Your reading the scripture literally when it should not be read so.
Man in scripture is referred to as rising to heaven and being cast down.
Remember also that the word heaven does not solely stand for God's abode, a place where ONLY the RIGHTEOUS DO DWELL, AND THUS IS A PLACE WITHOUT SIN, but know that heaven ALSO represents the SKY.
Scripture abounds with man rising and being cast down, or falling.
Isaiah 10”33 Behold, the Lord, The Lord of hosts, Will lop off the bough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down, And the haughty will be humbled. 34 He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, And Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One.
Ezekiel 31:1 Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: 'Whom are you like in your greatness? 3 Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, With fine branches that shaded the forest, And of high stature; And its top was among the thick boughs. 4 The waters made it grow; Underground waters gave it height, With their rivers running around the place where it was planted, And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field. 5 'Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field; Its boughs were multiplied, And its branches became long because of the abundance of water, As it sent them out. 6 All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young; And in its shadow all great nations made their home. 7 'Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches, Because its roots reached to abundant waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it; The fir trees were not like its boughs, And the chestnut trees were not like its branches; No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches, So that all the trees of Eden envied it, That were in the garden of God.'
10 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height, 11 therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12 And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it. 13 'On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens, And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches– 14 So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them. 'For they have all been delivered to death, To the depths of the earth, Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.' 15 “Thus says the Lord God: 'In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations. 18 To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,' says the Lord God.
Jer 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed, Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; In the time of their punishment They shall be cast down,” says the Lord.
Jer 50:32 The most proud shall stumble and fall, And no one will raise him up; I will kindle a fire in his cities, And it will devour all around him.”
Le 26:30I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you.
Ps 36:12 there the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise.
Psalms 62:4 They only consult to cast him down from his high position; They delight in lies; They bless with their mouth, But they curse inwardly. Selah
Psalms 89:42 You have exalted the right hand of his adversaries; You have made all his enemies rejoice. 43 You have also turned back the edge of his sword, And have not sustained him in the battle. 44 You have made his glory cease, And cast his throne down to the ground. 45 The days of his youth You have shortened; You have covered him with shame. Selah
La 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.
Eze 31:16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.
Eze 32:18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, And cast them down to the depths of the earth, Her and the daughters of the famous nations, With those who go down to the Pit:
CLEARLY the bible speaks of men falling and we are given direct scripture that refers to man falling from heaven.
As Gene pointed out
, Isaiah tells us DIRECTLY that it was a man that fell from heaven. Don't deny what the scriptures say, and don't add to the scriptures so it makes sense to you. Search the scriptures in order to find understanding, don't add your own ideas to create understanding.Peace and blessings to you and Georg, Jodi
Not all Scriptures are metaphor's. In this case, we know that Satan has fallen from Heaven and is the God of this world, to deceive the many. He also has a very short time left, before Christ will soon return, and he will be bound for a thousand years. I do not get hung up on anything. God permitted Satan to test Job. And we also know he tested Jesus in the wilderness. Unless you do not want to believe Jesus. Rev. says this
Rev. 12:3 And another sign appeared Heaven, behold a fiery dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his head. So we have more Scripture then just Isaiah. I did ask my Husband about this, and He does agree.
verse 4″ His tail drew a third of the stars and drew them with him. War broke out in Heaven and Michael and His Angel fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought. The did not prevail, and there was no place found in Heaven for them again.verse 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, he was cast to the earth and his angels were cast out with him.
verse 10 says that he accused the Brethren day and night, he was cast down. No more will he accuse any Human to God. O he will cause us to sin. He will put a thought into a mind and it takes of from there, if we don't recognize it.
After the Millenium the devil will be loosed again for a little while and a multitude will follow him. In the Catholic Church we were taught who all the Angels were.
Remember Jodi if you call me a liar or any kind of name, I will not debate with you again. I like to debate, but hate it when name calling takes place.
Peace and Love IreneNot everything is a metaphor your right Irene,
When scripture directly tells us that Isaiah is speaking about a MAN, then that man's fall from heaven is OBVIOUSLY A METAPHOR!!
We also have several places in the bible where we are told about the fall of man from heaven and what that means.
Irene, are you saying that the scripture is wrong, that it should not read a man, though the entire section is introduced as a proverb against the King of Babylon, and the entire chapter continually confirms that it is about the King?
Irene the king was told that he has fallen from heaven for he said in his heart that he would ascend there and be like the Most high. Can't you see even the fact that YHWH is referred to as the MOST high shows us that men considered other men as being HIGH.
Men were referred to as being in heaven or on high, because of their position of power and authority, and with that position often vanity and arrogance came, thus those individuals in those high positions often ended up thinking highly of themselves.
What is interesting is that you keep saying that we should take the fall literally, but that we should not view the king literally. According to you the man should not be defined as a man but as a fallen angel?
Just think about what your belief implies Irene. Your saying that angels can fall from God's heavenly abode, that angels can make war, and sin in God's presence, in His RIGHTEOUS HOUSE. How are we ever to believe in God's promises if that is the case?
Lu 11:2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
Ps 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to Your name; The upright shall dwell in Your presence.
Irene I don't believe that any person rather it be an angel or a man, can sin in God's presence in His House. God promises that earth will be as it is in heaven with no more sin, pain or suffering, so doesn't that tell you that there could be no literal fall from God's HOUSE?
Luke 20:35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Angels don't fall from heaven, seriously think about what that implies. Those accounted worthy will be given immortality no longer able to die, just as the angels are no longer able to die. The angles are in God's house because it seems apparent to me, that they had to have been perfected at some point in the past in order to get there. The upright dwell in God's presence. God's House is where His Will, and nothing but His will exists. Angels DO NOT SIN in God's House, angels don't make war against God in His House, that is completely futile IMO.
Irene you continue to use the Hebrew word !tX, meaning adversary as if it is a proper name of one individual. Before you do such a thing I believe you should prove such through scripture.
Once again, the dragon is specifically said to represent Kings, those kings take their messengers with them when they fall or rather, lose their high position of power and authority.
IMO you are corrupting the word of God, creating your own ideas instead of sticking to the specificity that scripture gives us.
Scripture says Isaiah is talking about a king, you say it is talking about a fallen angel. Scripture tells us that the dragon with its heads and horns represents Kings and their dominions, but you say it is talking about fallen angels. The words fallen angel don't even exist in the bible, and yet you know all their names? Irene your not really asking us to believe in the Catholic Church over scripture are you?
There is not one scripture in the bible that talks about angels falling from God's Righteous house. There are countless other scriptures that talk about how men fall though. Here are two more good ones,
Jer 49:16 Your fierceness has deceived you, The pride of your heart, O you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Who hold the height of the hill! Though you make your nest as high as the eagle, I will bring you down from there,” says the Lord.
Ob 1:3“The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, You who live in the clefts of the rock, In the loftiness of your dwelling place, Who say in your heart, 'Who will bring me down to earth?
Hi Jodi,
The dragon [satan] and his angels waged war in heaven and a place was not longer found for them there.[Rev12. 7-9]Nick You are absolutely right!! Man has never seen Heaven were God sits on His throne, and the Angels of God, who are called the Sons of God. While Satan was like the morning star so bright at one time, until iniquity was found in Him. He was Lucifer that beautiful Angel. Let me ask you a question:” Did any king ever go into Heaven and tried to take God of His throne? Is it not Lucifer who became Satan when He was thrown out of Heaven. I don't think that any man or King has ever tried that before. Nobody has even been in Heaven except He that came from Heaven. Isaiah 14:9-14. Are we not to take precept upon precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little Even though some verses talk about a King, some where set in. Only Satan has been thrown from Heaven, no one else has.
Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding. 22 He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, And light dwells with Him.
Daniel 2:37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all–you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold–the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
Daniel 4:3 “I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud and said thus: 'Chop down the tree and cut off its branches, Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the beasts get out from under it, And the birds from its branches. 15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth, Bound with a band of iron and bronze, In the tender grass of the field. Let it be wet with the dew of heaven, And let him graze with the beasts On the grass of the earth. 16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man, Let him be given the heart of a beast, And let seven times pass over him. 17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.' 18 “This dream I, King Nebuchadnezzar, have seen. Now you, Belteshazzar, declare its interpretation, since all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known to me the interpretation; but you are able, for the Spirit of the Holy God is in you.”……………………
20 The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth, 21 whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home– 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth. 23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him'; 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: 25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses. 26 And inasmuch as they gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.” 28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king's mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.” 33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws.
God sets up kingdoms and gives men power, authority and wisdom. The Most high sets them up. King Neb was likened by God as a tree, and that tree was said to reach to the heavens and could be seen by all the earth. King Neb, said that Babylon was great because of himself through his own mighty power. So God chopped down the tree, making King Neb fall from heaven.
Some on this forum say that fallen angels or rebel spirits have control over Kings and their kingdoms, however scripture directly tells us that it Is YHWH who does. People such as Irene teach that it is by the power of fallen angels that Kings rule, however scripture tells us that it is by YHWH’s power. Scripture shows when Kings sin and become full of pride, God casts them down from their throne. There is nothing in Isaiah, Daniel or Revelation that speaks of invisible rebel spirits being in control of anything, or causing sin to occur in man’s heart. Neither is there any discussion of rebel spirits sinning in God's presence and being kicked out of God's House.
4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
Daniel 5: 18 O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father a kingdom and majesty, glory and honor. 19 And because of the majesty that He gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down. 20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. 21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses. 22 But you his son
, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written. 25 “And this is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of each word. Mene: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; 27 Tekel: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; 28 Peres: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.” 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and put a chain of gold around his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 That very night Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans, was slain. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.Could scripture really be more clear? There is nothing in scripture talking about God allowing invisible rebel spirits to use their god like powers to take over kingdoms and cause Kings to sin. There is NO rebel spirit with the name Satan who learks around manipulating the earth with supernatural powers. That is a LIE, created through the imagination of men, men who did not head scripture but forced their previously held pagan beliefs of ignorance and superstition into the translations of the bible creating distortions and mistranslations of scripture. Their doctrine runs strong today working as a spirit of blindness.
Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
The devil here is a slandering king who is persecuting Christians. This King, like all kings, was under the authority and rule of which YHWH supplied him, and the king used that power to commit injustice. Like King Neb this King in Revelation, who was seen by the people as a devil or evil slanderer, killed whomever he liked and kept alive whomever he liked.
Where does a murdering heart come from according to scripture-
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
A murdering heart comes from man’s own debased mind.
Mark 7:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Our minds are either set on the flesh, or set on the Spirit of God. Man’s actions are determined through either serving his flesh, or serving God. Like Jesus pointed out we cannot serve two masters we cannot serve mammon and God. There is no master our flesh is said to serve that is described as an invisible rebel spirit.
Our flesh is weak drawing us to serve it because it creates deceitful lusts.
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin…………..12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Ephesians 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another.
The old man grows corrupt NOT because of invisible rebel spirit influences but because of deceitful lusts. To rid those lusts we must renew our MINDS, because it is our OWN minds that cause us to follow those deceitful lusts.
The old man is ignorant to the knowledge and ways of God. When man is following his flesh he is following after his own imagination.
Ge 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
The imagination of man’s heart is ignorant and it has the ability to create lies through forming it’s own understanding upon observations of the world. Man observes the world around him with a God given desire for knowledge and understanding. Without God’s spirit man is left to his imagination to ma
ke sense of things. Without God’s truth and wisdom man is left to create nothing but distortions and lies within his mind.Ps 73:22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.
The serpent in the garden was man’s mind being likened to an ignorant beast, not just any ignorant beast but the cunning serpent. Man, when left in his ignorance follows his own imagination which leads him into deceit. It was the imagination of a human being in the garden that was creating deceit with the idea that an apple could give wisdom. The old man is like a serpent, acting ignorant of the ways of God, living off of nothing but it’s own nature. Man can overcome that nature by renewing his mind following the wisdom and truth God’s Spirit brings.
The dragon with its ten horns, meaning ten KINGS, represents the force of the old serpent, the adversary the slanderer, which is the ignorant mind of man, that without God is left to his own imagination able to create deceit and all manners of evil. Sin is to miss the mark, in order to make the mark we must be filled with God's wisdom and truth, without God's Spirit we are left with our own imaginations to form understanding, and as scripture tells us from the beginning in Genesis, man's imagination can create evil from it's youth.
Hi Jodi,
You say none can sin in God's Presence?
But your own thoughts are not any form of evidence are they?Hi Jodi,
So now the dragon is the force of the serpent and the aggregated minds of men?You make it up as you go along don't you.
But we are here to study what is written not your thoughts.Quote (Cindy @ June 23 2009,10:57) Nick You are absolutely right!! Man has never seen Heaven were God sits on His throne, and the Angels of God, who are called the Sons of God. While Satan was like the morning star so bright at one time, until iniquity was found in Him. He was Lucifer that beautiful Angel. Let me ask you a question:” Did any king ever go into Heaven and tried to take God of His throne? Is it not Lucifer who became Satan when He was thrown out of Heaven. I don't think that any man or King has ever tried that before. Nobody has even been in Heaven except He that came from Heaven. Isaiah 14:9-14. Are we not to take precept upon precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little Even though some verses talk about a King, some where set in. Only Satan has been thrown from Heaven, no one else has.
I find this post to be an utter Abhorrence unto YHWH.His throne, His Kingdom, His Heaven is NOT defiled by sin. Angels do not sin in God's presence in His House. Individuals do not get kicked out of God's righteous Home, they become perfected to enter it, and that perfection comes from God's work.
Irene, is God a failure, does His work of perfection grow old and deteriorate, or is it an Eternal Work?
Matthew 6:9 “Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Ps 118:20–This is the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 -Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
Ps 89:14 – Righteousness and judgment Are the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Isa 63:15 Look attentively from the heavens, And see from Thy holy and beauteous habitation, Where is Thy zeal and Thy might? The multitude of Thy bowels and Thy mercies Towards me have refrained themselves.
Isa 65:25 Wolf and lamb do feed as one, And a lion as an ox eateth straw, As to the serpent — dust is its food, They do no evil, nor destroy, In all My holy mountain, said Jehovah!
Are you getting and believing the scriptures Irene, or are you going to choose to deny them like you deny the ones that directly tell us that it was MAN that FALLS from HEAVEN? Don't deny the scripture Irene, figure out what it means, and do so according to how the scriptures directly tells us what it means. Seriously woman, your reasoning skills are so corrupt.
No evil can be done in God's Holy Habitation, yet you speak lies saying that God's angels can sin and make war in His face in His Home.
Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Not until Jesus and the saints create a world without sin, can God come down and join us. Because God cannot dwell in sin, no sin can be in His presence.
Can Jesus sin in heaven? Neither angel or man can sin in God's House, because it is a place of righteous perfection.
Irene your doctrine is an abomination to YHWH, His Holy Habitation is just that it is HOLY. You defile it by saying angels can sin and make war in it.
You need to do some desperate searching in your heart Irene, and let the scriptures speak for themselves, your interpretations are IMO futile and vile to YHWH.
Ps 89:14 Righteousness and judgment Are the fixed place of Thy throne, Kindness and truth go before Thy face.
Brethren do not listen to Irene on this matter, angels in heaven cannot fall from heaven. Righteousness is a FIXED place in God's throne. There was no such thing as a beautiful angle named Lucifer who fell from God's FIXED throne of righteousness.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,06:32) Hi Jodi,
So now the dragon is the force of the serpent and the aggregated minds of men?You make it up as you go along don't you.
But we are here to study what is written not your thoughts.
Nick I don't make it up as I go along. The dragon is made up of ten horns which are said to be kings. The dragon is said to be the adversary, the old serpent, the slanderer. I have said consistently that all those things represent the sinful mind of man. I say that Kings follow after their sinful minds. What is a dragon but a beast itself, a beast said to be represented of Kings.Ps 73:22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.
Beasts are ignorant of the ways of God they follow their own natural desires.
Kings if they aren't following God then they are like beasts, following their nature in their own minds and their own desires.
What we have are men in scripture directly referred to as being serpents and beasts. What we have in scripture are verses telling us that sin comes from a man's own heart from his carnal nature. What we don't have in scripture are beasts or men being said to be controlled or manipulated by invisible rebel spirits.
Nick when are you going to stop adding to and distorting the Word of God?
So Nick why don't you define for us which heaven, in Revelation 12, is the dragon being said to fall from. In your opinion is it the sky that the dragon is falling from, or is it God's fixed throne of righteousness?
Hi Jodi,
No the dragon is not made up of hills.Read rev 17 again.
The dragon HAS seven heads and ten horns.
Satan controls politics and the glory of men and offered them to Jesus.Hi Jodi,
I am searching for this aggregated human mind in scripture that you boast of not adding to.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,07:30) Hi Jodi,
Man fell from heaven?
Men never were in heaven.
Daniel 4:3 “I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud and said thus: 'Chop down the tree and cut off its branches, Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the beasts get out from under it, And the birds from its branches. 15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth, Bound with a band of iron and bronze, In the tender grass of the field. Let it be wet with the dew of heaven, And let him graze with the beasts On the grass of the earth. 16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man, Let him be given the heart of a beast, And let seven times pass over him. 17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.' 18 “This dream I, King Nebuchadnezzar, have seen. Now you, Belteshazzar, declare its interpretation, since all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known to me the interpretation; but you are able, for the Spirit of the Holy God is in you.”……………………20 The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth,
21 whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home– 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him'; 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: 25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses. 26 And inasmuch as they gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.” 28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king's mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.” 33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws.
Your blindness Nick is very unfortunate.
Obviously I have never said that men have been in God's Holy Habitation, we know that Jesus is the only man who has been in heaven.
You know darn well also, that I don't believe in men literally falling from the sky.
So why are you being deceptive with your questioning? Not wise Nick to enjoy lawlessness, but yet you seem to revel in distortion.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,07:42) Hi Jodi,
I am searching for this aggregated human mind in scripture that you boast of not adding to.
Nick, not sure why you are using the word aggregate to describe my view of the human mind.I have never used that word, and it means collective, total, or combine.
Maybe you would like to clarify?
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
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