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Ahhh…….. It seems you and I agree, David. You can notice a little “standoffishness” in my last post – because I was under the impression that YOU were here to preach to us about how “bad” slavery is!
My ambiguous statement was supposed to convey: EVEN IF I personally found slavery appalling, I sure wouldn't condemn God for condoning that practice. And I hope that's not what YOU'RE doing.
I do not find it appalling, David. If the U.S. was conquered today, and I found myself a slave, I would try my best to practice what Paul taught in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3. I would obey my earthly masters with sincerity of heart as I would obey Christ himself.
Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2014,19:49) Quote … They were never intended to have equal rights with men. Young females were sold into marriage or slavery all the time in the Biblical days. They didn't have a say in the matter, because they were possessions of the men. And a person can do whatever he want with his own possessions, right?
–mike
I wish we could return to the good old days. Do you think perhaps the future will be like this?
You're treading on thin ice there, David! I once almost went to war with Princess over that kind of a statement. I had Stu all over me – taking Princess' side, and calling me a cad. 
I almost feel like you're baiting me here, but I honestly DO wish it was still like that, David. And I hope it will be like that after the resurrection.
The families today have too much strife, and the kids see too many struggles for dominance between husband and wife – all because there are too many chiefs, and not enough Indians.
I'm not saying the man should run ram shod over the wife and demean her. But when there is a disagreement that both parties feel strongly about, the wife needs to defer to the husband, who is the head of the household. The kids should never see their mom going to war with their dad – as if they both have equal say in the matter. The woman needs to recognize that the head of woman is man – just like we recognize that the head of man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
Those teachings are in the scriptures, and I agree with them.
Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2014,19:52) I think perhaps the enlightenment you speak of has gotten to you.
Notice how I put “enlightenment” in quotes every time I used it.I don't consider what we humans have become to be an “enlightened” version of our ancestors. I believe most things are much worse today – and wish I could have lived back then.
Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2014,19:56) Quote Young females were sold into marriage or slavery all the time in the Biblical days. They didn't have a say in the matter, because they were possessions of the men. And a person can do whatever he want with his own possessions, right? –mike
Almost anything. To be fair they couldn't beat them so badly that they died, or destroy their eyes or teeth. But yes a person can do almost whatever he wants with his possessions.
Agreed. ALMOST anything.We must never forget that God wants MERCY, and not sacrifice. That goes for widows, orphans, and even our own property, such as wives and slaves.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,12:21) Ahhh…….. It seems you and I agree, David. You can notice a little “standoffishness” in my last post – because I was under the impression that YOU were here to preach to us about how “bad” slavery is! My ambiguous statement was supposed to convey: EVEN IF I personally found slavery appalling, I sure wouldn't condemn God for condoning that practice. And I hope that's not what YOU'RE doing.
I do not find it appalling, David. If the U.S. was conquered today, and I found myself a slave, I would try my best to practice what Paul taught in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3. I would obey my earthly masters with sincerity of heart as I would obey Christ himself.
Mike, When Canada finally conquers the US making it one of our provinces, the men will likely be killed and we will make the women and children slaves. So it is unlikely you will have the chance to obey an earthy master as a slave.There is nowhere wives are called slaves in Scripture though I believe women could become free through marriage.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,12:21) Ahhh…….. It seems you and I agree, David. You can notice a little “standoffishness” in my last post – because I was under the impression that YOU were here to preach to us about how “bad” slavery is! My ambiguous statement was supposed to convey: EVEN IF I personally found slavery appalling, I sure wouldn't condemn God for condoning that practice. And I hope that's not what YOU'RE doing.
I do not find it appalling, David. If the U.S. was conquered today, and I found myself a slave, I would try my best to practice what Paul taught in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3. I would obey my earthly masters with sincerity of heart as I would obey Christ himself.
Mike.I am certainly not preaching how bad slavery is. My main concern is truth. Many people are under certain misconceptions when it comes to biblical slavery. They focus on how the Israelites are treated and can't seem to acknowledge that there were foreign slaves who were treated entirely differently.
T8 says forced slavery is bad. I don't think he even knows that the Israelites made slaves out of captured nations after often killing he men.I am doing this somewhat tongue and cheek. I am not sure I know what that expression means so may be using it wrong.
Me taking the stand that I want to go buy slaves and have slaves isn't accurate. I don't want to own slaves. But I just want to know how anyone would argue against that idea biblically. If you said: I'm going to country x to buy some slaves, how would people respond? And why?
Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2014,04:36) There is nowhere wives are called slaves in Scripture though I believe women could become free through marriage.
For all intents and purposes, those words were synonyms in the bible.Kerwin, could you expand on what you mean. I believe that if a man sold his daughter to another man (Israelites) and the man rejected her she could be free. I have to double check that.
But think of this from the daughters perspective. She has no choice in the matter. She is for all practical purposes a slave. A slave that must carry out the wifely duties. Today we call these sex slaves.
Slavery is a type of employment contract whose terms vary from age to age and culture to culture. Death is sometimes the only way out of it but even then some have escaped by self exile and other ways.
David,
It was complicated as it appears a father had the last say in the matter. If a man had sex with an unmarried woman he had no choice but to marry her, Exodus 22:16-17. Her father had the power to veto the potential marriage but even then the man had to pay her bride price. The powers she had in the affair is 1) choosing to have sex with the man in the first place and 2) her influence on her father. Her father's choices were according to the spirit he lived by.
The one I was speaking of is Deuteronomy 21:10-14 which speaks of a man free a woman from captivity by marrying her and then be forbid to return he to captivity if he chooses to divorce her. Scripture even states ” thou shalt let her go whither she will”.
Feminist would complain but do they choose to live by the Spirit or by the flesh?
Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2014,04:45) Slavery is a type of employment contract whose terms vary from age to age and culture to culture. Death is sometimes the only way out of it but even then some have escaped by self exile and other ways.
What do you man by:1. Employment
2. Contract
If I and my nation go to your home right now and take you by force take you back to our place and make you our slave, where is the contract in that? Or the employment? Would you consider yourself to be in an employment contract if I took you by force and forced you to do my work?
Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2014,05:02) David, It was complicated as it appears a father had the last say in the matter. If a man had sex with an unmarried woman he had no choice but to marry her, Exodus 22:16-17. Her father had the power to veto the potential marriage but even then the man had to pay her bride price. The powers she had in the affair is 1) choosing to have sex with the man in the first place and 2) her influence on her father. Her father's choices were according to the spirit he lived by.
The one I was speaking of is Deuteronomy 21:10-14 which speaks of a man free a woman from captivity by marrying her and then be forbid to return he to captivity if he chooses to divorce her. Scripture even states ” thou shalt let her go whither she will”.
Feminist would complain but do they choose to live by the Spirit or by the flesh?
“If you go to war against your enemies and Jehovah your God defeats them for you and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman and you are attracted to her and you want to take her as your wife, you may bring her into your house. She should then shave her head, attend to her nails, and remove the clothing of her captivity, and dwell in your house. She will weep for her father and her mother a whole month, and afterward you may have relations with her; you will become her husband and she will become your wife. But if you are not pleased with her, you should then let her go wherever she wishes. But you may not sell her for money or treat her harshly, since you have humiliated her.” (DEUT 21:10-14)This says if the man, the Israelite, if they conquer a nation and the man sees a girl he likes, and brings her I to his house, and if the MAN is not pleased with her, then she can go free. And the man can't sell her in this situation.
I'm not sure the man “frees her from captivity” by marrying her. In what sense is she free? She can't leave of her own will?
When it says the clothing of her captivity, does that mean the clothing she wore in her old nation or does it mean some sort of other special clothes that captives or slaves wore?
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2014,11:36) There is nowhere wives are called slaves in Scripture though I believe women could become free through marriage.
Psalm 86:16 NET
Turn toward me and have mercy on me! Give your servant your strength! Deliver your slave! 23Footnote #23 says:
Heb “the son of your female servant.”
The phrase “son of a female servant” (see also Ps 116:16) is used of a son born to a secondary wife or concubine (Exod 23:12).
Also Kerwin, Sarah addressed Abraham as “my lord” (ie: “my master”).
I will try to do some more research when I get the time, but basically, wives were the PROPERTY of their husbands. Daughters were the PROPERTY of their fathers, until they were old enough for another man to BUY them from their father.
Quote (david @ April 03 2014,11:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,12:21) If the U.S. was conquered today, and I found myself a slave, I would try my best to practice what Paul taught in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3. I would obey my earthly masters with sincerity of heart as I would obey Christ himself.
Mike, When Canada finally conquers the US making it one of our provinces, the men will likely be killed and we will make the women and children slaves. So it is unlikely you will have the chance to obey an earthy master as a slave.
If my only chance to obey an earthly master depends upon Canada conquering the U.S., then I totally agree with the last words of your post.Quote (david @ April 03 2014,11:37) If you said: I'm going to country x to buy some slaves, how would people respond? And why?
Most people would not respond favorably, David. But that's because we are more “enlightened” today.Don't get me wrong, I despise the way many slave owners treated their slaves. The owning of slaves is not the condemnable part – as long as you practice mercy.
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2014,11:45) Slavery is a type of employment contract whose terms vary from age to age and culture to culture.
It could be, Kerwin. Some poor people sold themselves to others. The agreement is that they would receive room and board, and in turn they would do laborious work for their owner.According to the Bible, a rich relative could buy them out of the contract, and free them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2014,05:57) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2014,11:36) There is nowhere wives are called slaves in Scripture though I believe women could become free through marriage.
Psalm 86:16 NET
Turn toward me and have mercy on me! Give your servant your strength! Deliver your slave! 23Footnote #23 says:
Heb “the son of your female servant.”
The phrase “son of a female servant” (see also Ps 116:16) is used of a son born to a secondary wife or concubine (Exod 23:12).
Also Kerwin, Sarah addressed Abraham as “my lord” (ie: “my master”).
I will try to do some more research when I get the time, but basically, wives were the PROPERTY of their husbands. Daughters were the PROPERTY of their fathers, until they were old enough for another man to BUY them from their father.
Mike,Being a slave to God is a good thing though if most people claimed to be such I would think they were speaking an untruth. I tend to thing he was those words in the context you state though it would have been a boast for any man even then when the shoot was more green.
As for Sarah calling her husband master it means only that she admitted he authority over her and I certainly am not going to claim modern feminist agree with the system of authority God laid down to Adam in the beginning.
As I pointed out to David, a man could choose to marry a woman captive bit in doing so would free her and even if he then chose to divorce her she would not return to slavery but was free to make her own choices.
Kerwin,
The bottom line is that God made woman FOR man, and until recently in certain cultures, women remained the PROPERTY of their fathers, and then their husbands.
This is still the case in some cultures.
And owning a PERSON as property is called “slavery”.
David,
Quote I'm not sure the man “frees her from captivity” by marrying her. In what sense is she free? She can't leave of her own will? More nonsense from modern feminist that seem to envy and hate women.
That is a lot of things my government bans me from doing. Does that mean I am not free? I have had employers that banned me from certain action does mean I am there slave.
From what I know women could not initiate a divorce under the Law of Mosses. Even that depends on interpretation.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2014,08:09) Kerwin, The bottom line is that God made woman FOR man, and until recently in certain cultures, women remained the PROPERTY of their fathers, and then their husbands.
This is still the case in some cultures.
And owning a PERSON as property is called “slavery”.
Mike,You can sell property. A husband could not sell his wife. Out cultural is influenced heavily by the ways of the flesh.
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