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Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 20 2014,10:38) David Quote (book of Enoch )that’s where he got the idea for “The Son of Man” title, was it not the book of Ezekiel instead
I think you meant colter not davidI think for this discussion we shouldn't call it slavery. That word is often misunderstood or minimized and has too much emotion in it as a trigger word.
Let's call it: ownership of people as property whom you can do what you like with, primarily forced labour, and whom you can discipline as you like, with the exception of blinding them, breaking teeth, or killing them.
Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2014,08:55) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 20 2014,10:38) David Quote (book of Enoch )that’s where he got the idea for “The Son of Man” title, was it not the book of Ezekiel instead
I think you meant colter not david
Yes,getting old
Quote (david @ Mar. 18 2014,08:06) T8 I very often try to put myself into other people's minds and see things as they would.
So how would you explain to an average person, maybe to someone who doesn't believe in the bible or God, and who agrees as most do that slavery is morally wrong, a crime against humanity…explain to them about slavery.
Don't confuse people being “slaves” to Christ, or “slaves” to the world empire of international bankers, etc.
And dont focus on the Hebrew “hired worker” servants who were called slaves but who chose to be slaves. Rather, please focus on the actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of foreign people, especially women, and particularly virgins.
Please speak to this. I know the good point has been raised that just as god ALLOWS divorce because of the hard heartedness of the people, maybe he similarly allowed and allows slavery. But this does not seem like the case, and I'm not sure this even makes sense given gods power to create whatever law he wishes. Rather than regulate forced slavery, would it have been possible to ablolish it? Sure, it makes life easier if you steel people, kill their husbands, and force those people to do work for you. But couldn't life have just been harder for the Israelites rather than owning other humans as possessions? That is what I do not get. Maybe I am seeing this entirely wrong or from a 21st century perspective and maybe that thinking is twisted up beyond recognition, but if it is, could you explain how.
David
So?Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 28 2008,11:38) Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” I believe that God establishes guidlines for how to handle items which He Himself is against, He knows due to the hardness of hearts
men will do these things.I believe that this is further supported by Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
My opinion – Wm
THE DIVORCE ARGUMENTThis occurred to me to be the best way to explain the existence of slavery in the bible.
God hates divorce. Yet he made rules for divorce.
Could god also hate slavery, while making laws for slavery?the reason for allowing divorce we are told is because of the hard heartedness of their hearts. I think this means they were going to get divorces regardless of what god said. So god went with it? Regulating it.
I'm not entirely sure the above makes sense, because if god is hating a divorcing, then having the power to set rules, why allow it? Why not just add the rule: “and you will be stoned to death if you divorce your wife”?I guess the above is worthy of discussion for much the same reason that slavery is. With slavery, the same questions occur. If we are to presume that god doesn't love slavery, and yet allowed and regulated it, we might similarly ask why he didn't just make the rules for HEBREW slaves the same rules for NON-HEBREW slaves, saying things like: you must not treat your brother (the Hebrew slave) cruelly, AND nor should you treat your non-Hebrew slave cruelly.
The other problem is, it doesn't seem like god hates slavery. There are instances where a nation is attacked, and the orders are to kill the men and sometimes the women, keeping he virgins as captives (slaves/wives). Or sometimes keeping the children and women. If god didn't want this done he could have not commanded these things.
They could have still had the Hebrew slaves (hired workers really) and if they didn't have hired workers they would just have to do their own work.
I'm not sure the divorce argument fits, being that god hates a divorcing but doesn't hate slavery.
Quote (david @ Mar. 23 2014,03:08) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 28 2008,11:38) Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” I believe that God establishes guidlines for how to handle items which He Himself is against, He knows due to the hardness of hearts
men will do these things.I believe that this is further supported by Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
My opinion – Wm
THE DIVORCE ARGUMENTThis occurred to me to be the best way to explain the existence of slavery in the bible.
God hates divorce. Yet he made rules for divorce.
Could god also hate slavery, while making laws for slavery?the reason for allowing divorce we are told is because of the hard heartedness of their hearts. I think this means they were going to get divorces regardless of what god said. So god went with it? Regulating it.
I'm not entirely sure the above makes sense, because if god is hating a divorcing, then having the power to set rules, why allow it? Why not just add the rule: “and you will be stoned to death if you divorce your wife”?I guess the above is worthy of discussion for much the same reason that slavery is. With slavery, the same questions occur. If we are to presume that god doesn't love slavery, and yet allowed and regulated it, we might similarly ask why he didn't just make the rules for HEBREW slaves the same rules for NON-HEBREW slaves, saying things like: you must not treat your brother (the Hebrew slave) cruelly, AND nor should you treat your non-Hebrew slave cruelly.
The other problem is, it doesn't seem like god hates slavery. There are instances where a nation is attacked, and the orders are to kill the men and sometimes the women, keeping he virgins as captives (slaves/wives). Or sometimes keeping the children and women. If god didn't want this done he could have not commanded these things.
They could have still had the Hebrew slaves (hired workers really) and if they didn't have hired workers they would just have to do their own work.
I'm not sure the divorce argument fits, being that god hates a divorcing but doesn't hate slavery.
God doesn't hate anything, hate is a human attribute. The men who wrote the bible had slaves, so they wrote rules about it.This is not rocket science!
I think this is the only thread on slavery.
I've decided to convert it into a trinity thread so that people will care about it.
I think what is happening with this subject may be called cognitive dissonance.
Quote God obviously would not be happy with you if you took someone at random off the street and turned them into a slave, yet God hands people over to slavery at certain times. –t8
T8, what gives you this idea? What makes this “obvious”?
David
Ge 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
what do you think that wickedness of men was
david
Cain crime of his brothe was before the flood right
Ge 4:23 Lamech said to his wives,
“Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.I think this was the common mentality ;the violent people over powered the humble ones , so WHICH ONE WOULD GOD SAVE
Quote (david @ Mar. 26 2014,00:40) I think this is the only thread on slavery. I've decided to convert it into a trinity thread so that people will care about it.
What? Trinity? Where? I'm here to help!Oh, I see…… you were making a joke. David, that is like lighting up the Bat Signal just because you have a hangnail. Batman would NOT be happy with you.
Remember the little boy who cried, “Wolf!” One of these times, you might yell “Trinity!”, and no one will come to your aid.
Seriously though, both the Hebrew and Greek words for “slave” also mean “servant”.
And God has always set things up in hierarchies. For example, there are archangels, and the angels under their command, ie: angels who SERVE the archangels.
And God created us lower than the gods, and assigned those gods (angels) to rule over the different nations. (See Psalm 82, where Jehovah renders judgment upon these gods for not doing it the way they were supposed to do it.)
And God created us with all authority over the animals of the earth.
There has always been, and always will be, a pecking order.
In some cases, such as Canaan and Esau, God intervened in the affairs of mankind, and purposed for the descendants of those two men to become slaves to other men.
Mat 20:27 NET Bible
and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slaveMary called herself God's little slave girl. But I think Ephesians 6:9 sums it up pretty well. While God doesn't have anything against one person or nation serving another person or nation, we must always remember that God wants MERCY, and not sacrifice. (Matthew 9:13)
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does Jehovah require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.So it's not so much that another is your slave. It's more how you treat that slave. Obviously, the stories we in America have been told about masters raping the wives of their slaves, and separating parents from their children, and all those other atrocities, don't fall under “act justly and love mercy”.
The men who committed those crimes against God and man will have to answer for them. But I don't personally believe they will answer for the act of owning slaves.
Quote Seriously though, both the Hebrew and Greek words for “slave” also mean “servant”. Yes.
I dont care too much about the words. I am mostly asking about FORCED slavery/servant hood
Call them slaves or servants if you like, I only care about the:
Ownership or possession of humans (as property) that is forced.
Quote And God has always set things up in hierarchies. For example, there are archangels, and the angels under their command, ie: angels who SERVE the archangels. The angels all have a choice. Some left.
And although not stated, I don't think god has ever commanded any angels to effectively steel other angels and use them for labour, and to discipline them by force if necessary.“SERVing” of ones own choice is different than being physically stolen, having your husband killed, and then being forced to be a concubine for a man, as well as a slave.
I don't think we should confuse the two.
Quote And God created us with all authority over the animals of the earth. Sure. But what of man and man? Man has dominated man to his injury.
Quote Mat 20:27 NET Bible
and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slaveSee. Here the idea of servant and not forced slavery is clearly meant.
Quote So it's not so much that another is your slave. It's more how you treat that slave. Obviously, the stories we in America have been told about masters raping the wives of their slaves, and separating parents from their children, and all those other atrocities, don't fall under “act justly and love mercy”. The thing is, I'm not sure this is right. If god commands it, how can it not be acting justly or merciful?
What you describe above seems to come from scripture. It's just they are the parts of scripture that people generally ignore or don't want to look at.
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