Is salvation by us, or of God?

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 09 2010,02:18)

Hi kerwin.
The post I have answered to terraricca with, would also be used to answer your previous one to me.
Also this reply of yours …”God can certainly show grace by creating a individual that will meet the qualifications he insist on in order to be saved. In order to demonstrate that grace he then chooses to make those who will perish”, I'm not sure what this means, could you reword it, or rephrase it better?

Blessings.

God created each of us. Some of us he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness. These are the Sons of God. Others of us he created to be destroyed. These are the Sons of the Devil.

The Sons of God because of their hunger will do the things God requires are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven while the Sons of Satan because they love to sin will not.

It is like the parable of the wheat and the weeds where the wheat meats God's criteria while the weeds do not.

There is not randomization to the process even though there individual choice.

January 9, 2010 at 6:02 am#169367

Participant

To all,

Determinism is important to our faith in God as whatever happens we must trust that God is in control. That is where the flaw in the libertarian mindset comes as they seem to wish to wrest control from God and place it in their own hands. They are correct that we are responsible for our own choices but it is God who determines the outcome. Even then we should be careful not to blame God for the result of our choices because though God will use bad results for his good we intended evil. For example the wife of a murdered man may as a result of his murder decide to go into law and become a prosecutor who successfully prosecutes many cases against wrongdoers but never less the murderer is still guilty of sin and the murder of a man is abhorrent.

The Hard Determinist go too far for they want to blame God even for the plans of a man’s heart. Because of that they accuse God of sinning. Instead each human is accountable for his own actions and so God is just to judge them according to those actions.

Matthew 10:29(NIV) reads:

Quote

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

God is certainly determining the fate of each and every sparrow according to Jesus. Jesus certainly has no problem relating that to the fate of his hearers. That makes Jesus a determinist.

Matthew 10:32-33(NIV) reads:

Quote

“Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

In this scripture we find Jesus informing his students that he will hold them accountable for what they choose. That is “free will” or what is what I prefer calling “individual will”.

From this example it is apparent Jesus does not see a contradiction between the two.

January 10, 2010 at 1:28 am#169462

Participant

hi kw
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed

Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Jas 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
Jas 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
Jas 1:23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror
Jas 1:24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like

in this view James shows that men are the only ones responsable for what they do or not do,
God as provide us with a offer it is up to us to take it or leave it,we are left free in our will to respond or not to respond it does not matter that there is only two choice one leading to live and one leading to dead .

we have been encourage By God,Christ ,Apostles,and the word of God to accept the way to live ,this is what he has for told long ago,he also for told the end of those who refuse the way of live ,But God leave it up to us to choose what we want.

January 10, 2010 at 3:06 am#169477

GeneBalthrop

Participant

teraricca………Self salvation is a myth , GOD said he looked for (ONE) righteous man and said there were none “NOT EVEN ONE” . And King David said Blessed it the man whom the LORD will impute (NO) Sin whose iniquities (HE) has covered. There is not (ONE) Scripture that says we all HAVE” FREE WILL” , that is a human thought that glorifies the SELF. It's not in SCRIPTURE> Produce it if it is there, i have never seen it. IMO

January 10, 2010 at 4:09 am#169484

Participant

hi gene
free will does not mean self salvation,it just means that you are not obligated to do or make your decisions under forced management.
i have no idea were you have picked your definition of free will or free to choose is the same thing.

that is why Christ came to free us is from the flesh sinful nature now we are free to choose to serve God or not to serve him.be slave of God Or of the flesh ,one kills the other make you live.

but it is by your free will power that you have to choose God like voluntary worshipers not forced ones.

the right for you to choose between live and dead is not new ,Moses made the same offer to the nation of Israel in the desert wen he received the law from God.

I have study free will comments ,there is much written about it but also some confusion.

check it out and see.

January 10, 2010 at 7:25 am#169490

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2010,16:31)

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 09 2010,02:18)

Blessings.

God created each of us. Some of us he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness. These are the Sons of God. Others of us he created to be destroyed. These are the Sons of the Devil.

The Sons of God because of their hunger will do the things God requires are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven while the Sons of Satan because they love to sin will not.

It is like the parable of the wheat and the weeds where the wheat meats God's criteria while the weeds do not.

There is not randomization to the process even though there individual choice.

Hi kerwin.
You say “God created each of us. Some of us he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness. These are the Sons of God. Others of us he created to be destroyed. These are the Sons of the Devil”.
The “Others of us He created to be destroyed”, does this not fit your description of Sin? If God wilfully created someone to be destroyed?

Blessings.

January 10, 2010 at 7:33 am#169491

Participant

Kerwin.
I just came across this post of yours that contradicts what you say.

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 1611
Joined: Jan. 2009 Posted: Jan. 09 2010,16:36

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Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,04:58)
Kerwin………..Please show when i have ever accused GOD of SINNING.

If man is not accountable for his actions then God is accountable for the actions of man and thus when man sins God sins.

Choosenone appears to be in denial on that issue, sadly being in denial is rather common for man.

Getting over that denial is when we can start getting closer to God in truth.

Blessings.

January 10, 2010 at 8:01 am#169492

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CO,
God created Adam and Eve and gave them life to pass on to us.
Adam submitted to the realm of the god of this world and we all inherit that shameful state.
Jesus opened a way for all to come back into relationship with God cleansed and forgiven and empowered to become children of God.

Have you chosen life yet or is the wrath of God your inheritance still??[Jn3]

January 10, 2010 at 5:32 pm#169502

GeneBalthrop

Participant

terraricca……….I also have made an extensive study on So-Called (FREE WILL) idology, First before we can use the term (FREE) we need to understand what that means, Free means totally free from (ANY) influence what so ever , free of any desire, any pressure, of any kind. No Will exists in that realm, it is not even mentioned in scriptures. But men want that because it boosts their EGO to think they are choosing (THEIR) righteousness and in that way are taking there own salvation into there own hands, and basically eliminating GOD the FATHERS Part and Work in the process. FREE WILL is only a EGO, booster and does not even exist. We are Caused to do whatever we DO by (PREEXISTING) INFLUENCES. All WILLS are influenced WILLS, EVEN GOD'S WILL is to. There is simply not such thing as (A FREE WILL) IMO

January 10, 2010 at 6:44 pm#169508

Participant

hi gene

Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden
He awoke from his sleep and thought, “I’ll go out as before and shake myself free.” But he did not know that the LORD had left him.
2Sa 22:49 who sets me free from my enemies

He awoke from his sleep and thought, “I’ll go out as before and shake myself free.” But he did not know that the LORD had left him.
2Sa 22:49 who sets me free from my enemies
Job 21:9 Their homes are safe and free from fear;
Job 16:17 yet my hands have been free of violence

Ps 31:4 Free me from the trap that is set for me,
for you are my refuge.

Ps 119:32 I run in the path of your commands,
for you have set my heart free.

Ps 129:4 But the LORD is righteous;
he has cut me free from the cords of the wicked.

Ps 146:7 He upholds the cause of the oppressed
and gives food to the hungry.
The LORD sets prisoners free,

Pr 6:3 then do this, my son, to free yourself,
since you have fallen into your neighbor’s hands:
Go and humble yourself;

Pr 6:5 Free yourself, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter,
like a bird from the snare of the fowler.

Pr 11:21 Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished,
but those who are righteous will go free.

Jer 34:9 Everyone was to free his Hebrew slaves, both male and female; no one was to hold a fellow Jew in bondage.

Jn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Jn 8:33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
Jn 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Ro 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Ro 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness

1Co 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life

you see gene we are slaves of what conquered us Satan or Christ,this leave us under constant choices
to make ,if we would not be free and have no will of our own we would not have any choice to make,it would be done for us,but God as made us free to choose our destiny,live in Christ or dead in Satan,

this is to make it simple ,and as you would try to say – free will -would be only considered to be totaly free of influences,this view is the view of same extremist philosophers but not all views are express in this view,
that is why i explain my view of free will direct relation to the will of choices we have,and not your interpretation of free will what would excluded God himself to himself it does not make sense.

this is my view

January 16, 2010 at 7:38 am#170456

Participant

A few scriptures for understanding that “All is of God”. (Ro.11:36)

Ro. 7:24-25 … A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace!
25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Ro.8:5-8 … For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.
6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.
8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
Notice particularly Verse 8 …”Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God”.

Ro.8:9 … Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
You see, it is the spirit of God in you, not your so-called “free will” that is working in you.

Ro.8:11 …Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.
Again notice ” because of His spirit making its home in you”.

Anyone thinking that they can while “in the flesh” be pleasing God with their so-called “free will” decisions, is decieving themselves. “ALL IS OF GOD”, trust in Him, not yourselves!

Blessings.

January 16, 2010 at 8:51 am#170464

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 10 2010,13:25)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2010,16:31)

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 09 2010,02:18)

Blessings.

God created each of us. Some of us he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness. These are the Sons of God. Others of us he created to be destroyed. These are the Sons of the Devil.

The Sons of God because of their hunger will do the things God requires are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven while the Sons of Satan because they love to sin will not.

It is like the parable of the wheat and the weeds where the wheat meats God's criteria while the weeds do not.

There is not randomization to the process even though there individual choice.

Blessings.

God did create some to be destroyed which is why he states “I have mercy on whom I have mercy and compassion of whom I have compassion”.

Think of it this way.

A man creates a stick of dynamite to be destroyed. Should the man condemned for doing so. In being destroyed the dynamite does much good. In just that way those being destroyed do much good by their destruction.

Have you read the parable of the wheat and the weeds? Have you considered it in the context of the trials of Job?

January 16, 2010 at 8:57 am#170465

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 10 2010,13:33)

Kerwin.
I just came across this post of yours that contradicts what you say.

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 1611
Joined: Jan. 2009 Posted: Jan. 09 2010,16:36

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Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,04:58)
Kerwin………..Please show when i have ever accused GOD of SINNING.

If man is not accountable for his actions then God is accountable for the actions of man and thus when man sins God sins.

Choosenone appears to be in denial on that issue, sadly being in denial is rather common for man.

Getting over that denial is when we can start getting closer to God in truth.

Blessings.

It does not contradict.

We make individual choices according to our nature but God created our natures. Just because God created are natures does not mean that he makes those choices for us. You can certainly make the case that he created us to make certain choices just like you can make the case he created a fish to swim and a bird to fly. Never the less it is the fish that swims and the bird that flies and not God.

January 16, 2010 at 12:23 pm#170475

Participant

hi CO
the fact that we have faith in Christ we are living in the spirit,so our free will decision to take part of the grace of God is in our benefit

January 16, 2010 at 6:08 pm#170504

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 16 2010,18:23)

hi CO
the fact that we have faith in Christ we are living in the spirit,so our free will decision to take part of the grace of God is in our benefit

What do you define “free will” as?

January 16, 2010 at 9:01 pm#170526

Participant

hi kerwin

i have explain it many times,
free will means that we have the power of decisions in our lives to do good or evil we may be influenced by the quality of that good and evil this is of no importance,
it is us who make the decisions that's were responsibility lays we are without excuses for our choices.

free means to me that you cannot make me do anything i do not want to do,(within man capacity)
will means i have the power to do those choices.

free will means you bear responsibilities for your actions.

look at the two bandits left and right to Jesus on the cross,they both swear at him ,mock him ,but at one point something happen the day darker and the ground shakes and look now what one of the bandits says to Jesus he is totally changed why ?because in is hearth he recognized truth wen it is presented to him in the way he can understand it

January 17, 2010 at 12:09 am#170551

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 17 2010,03:01)

hi kerwin

free means to me that you cannot make me do anything i do not want to do,(within man capacity)
will means i have the power to do those choices.

free will means you bear responsibilities for your actions.

That sounds like what I believe as well but when you argue with some that is not their understanding.

Gene for instance seems to have a different definition for free will. I cannot be sure what it was but I believe he stated a will free of internal as well as external influences. Being as one has to make choices using internal forces for one to be responsible his definition is not individual will.

I do not know what definition Choosenone uses.

If you discuss with them an issue involving free will then you will have a confusing conversation that will most likely not progress unless you begin speaking of the same thing.

January 17, 2010 at 2:00 am#170568

Participant

kerwin
there is 800 years more or less history on the philosophy of free will,
that is why I define my understanding.

but wen you Analise that philosophy it is almost a question of responsibility toward God .
in a way are we guilty or not guilty of our sins.

January 17, 2010 at 5:40 am#170583

Participant

kerwin.
When discussing “free will” you state …”I do not know what definition Choosenone uses”. Are there different definitions of free will? No where in scripture is “free will” mentioned, therefore I do not have a definition of it, because there is no context to define it in.
But Gods will is mentioned many times, the one that in context comes to mind is Eph.1:11 …”according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”,
I think this quite plainly says that His will (God), and His only, “Who is operating all”, is the only one Who has “free will”. If “He” is operating “ALL”, what is left for “us” to operate?

I don't know what 'your' definition of “free will” is, but can anyone take it seriously if it has no scripture backing it?

Blessings.

January 17, 2010 at 10:02 am#170600