Is salvation by us, or of God?

Participant

Hi CO,
Logic is not enough.
Neither is wrong context helpful.

If it is difficult for a righteous man to be saved what will become of the godless?

January 6, 2010 at 5:52 am#168866

terraricca

Participant

hi KW

first we have to understand that it is God who saves why ;because if he says no it is no;but he said yes so now is to find out how and why but we know why because of his love for us;but how and that leads to the controvercy we know it is trough Christ,

the invitation to recieve everlasting live is an open offer to the world sinse Christ ,to the Jews first then to the gentiles and later after the 1000 years the others that is why satan willbe released to test them under the same condition then us ,this is why being part of the first resurection is importante;

God would like to save everyone one but it seems not everyone wants to be saved.

January 6, 2010 at 6:30 am#168867

Participant

kerwin.
You say “God offers the gift, in which way he saves us, but we must accept it, in that way we save ourselves”. It would please me if you can quote the scripture that says this, I doubt you will find one.
In fact in Ro.8:28-39 …28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose
29 that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.
31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier?
34 Who is the Condemner? Christ Jesus, the One dying, yet rather being roused, Who is also at God's right hand, Who is pleading also for our sakes?
35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
36 According as it is written that “On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter.”
37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
Does this not say …”whom He forknew”? how much of this was “of you”?

You say …
God desires that each member of mankind would be saved but in order to accomplish his righteous purpose that cannot be. The only reason God can be limited in this matter is because for everyone to be saved would be a sinful act. If you chose to believe scripture then it tells you why God cannot save some in Romans 9:22-24.
For God to save all mankind would be a SINFUL ACT??? I can't believe you would say such an unscriptural falsehood. Let me quote more of Ro.9: verses 9-25 …9 For the word of the promise is this: At “this season” I shall come “and there will be for Sarah a son.”
10 Yet, not only so, but Rebecca also is having her bed of one, Isaac, our father.
11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,
12 it was declared to her that “The greater shall be slaving for the inferior,”
13 According as it is written, “Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate.”
14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!
15 For to Moses He is saying, “I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying.”
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, “Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?”
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, “Why do you make me thus?”
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory —
24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also.
25 As He is saying in Hosea also: I shall be calling those who are not My people “My people,” And she who is not beloved “Beloved,”
Read it all carefully and then tell us how much is of “us”. I'm sure all you will see is what “God is doing”, nothing of what Mankind is doing to “save himself”.

Trust scripture “All is of God, all is by Him, through Him, and for Him.”

Blessings.

January 6, 2010 at 6:42 am#168868

Participant

Choosenone wrote:

Quote

You say “God offers the gift, in which way he saves us, but we must accept it, in that way we save ourselves”. It would please me if you can quote the scripture that says this, I doubt you will find one.

I already pointed to scripture that states that we are instructed to save ourselves. My whole point was to explain how those scriptures which state God saves us are true at the same time those scriptures that state we save ourselves are true.

You seem to want to cherry pick some and disregard other scriptures. In this case you are disregarding those scriptures which state “save yourself”.

I have not yet read the rest of your response.

January 6, 2010 at 9:29 am#168880

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2010,12:42)

Choosenone wrote:

Quote

You seem to want to cherry pick some and disregard other scriptures. In this case you are disregarding those scriptures which state “save yourself”.

I have not yet read the rest of your response.

I have read the rest and want to point to two words you appear to be disregarding.

In Romans 8:28-39 the word is “foreknew” which is about God having knowledge beforehand and not stating God made the decisions.

In Romans 9:9-29 the word is “destruction” which clearly tells us some people will be destroyed.

In other words those scriptures are contradicting what you are stating.

January 6, 2010 at 7:59 pm#168926

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2010,20:29)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2010,12:42)

Choosenone wrote:

Quote

You seem to want to cherry pick some and disregard other scriptures. In this case you are disregarding those scriptures which state “save yourself”.

I have not yet read the rest of your response.

I have read the rest and want to point to two words you appear to be disregarding.

In Romans 8:28-39 the word is “foreknew” which is about God having knowledge beforehand and not stating God made the decisions.

In Romans 9:9-29 the word is “destruction” which clearly tells us some people will be destroyed.

In other words those scriptures are contradicting what you are stating.

kerwin.
I have a good explanation for “forknown”, as used in scripture. This describes my opinion as I believe what it means, and it does not agree with your description.

FOREKNOWN AND CHOSEN
OF GOD

THE MEMBERS of Christ’s body were “foreknown” by God (cp Rom.8:29). God’s holy nation, the people of Israel, are also among those “whom He foreknew” (Rom.11:2). Thus “the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (cf Rom.9:11).
We are “called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom.8:29). The thought here is not that He knew something about us, but that He “knew” us. This speaks not of His ignorance of others, but of His special “knowledge” of us.
God’s literal prescience or foreknowledge of our faith or works cannot be in view, for membership in the body of Christ is a matter of grace, not reward. Since salvation is not a matter of qualification, it is surely mistaken to assert that foreknowledge is merely knowing ahead of time who will qualify to be saved. Besides, “free will” faith and acts could never be foreknown. Since there is always a “chance” they might never occur, their future existence could not be an object of knowledge. On the other hand, where faith and acts are foreknown, their occurrence is inevitable, and thus it becomes impossible but that they should occur.
In such cases as this, in which God’s “foreknowledge” of us is in view, foreknowledge is a figure of speech. It is not only—wonderful as it is—that we are “known” by Him today, but that we were foreknown by Him long ago as well. “Now if anyone is loving God, this one is known by Him” (1 Cor.8:3). And, as those “whom He foreknew,” our calling itself is founded upon God’s predesignated purpose to conform us to the image of His Son. The same is true concerning those in Christ among the Circumcision. In writing to the believing expatriates of the dispersion, Peter reveals that they were “chosen . . . according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Peter 1:1, 2).
Literally, we know facts, for example, “knowing this before” (2 Peter 3:17). Figuratively, we “know,” or have a certain relationship with persons. In making his defense before Agrippa, Paul declared, “My life, indeed, then, from youth, which came to be from the beginning among my nation, besides in Jerusalem, all the Jews were acquainted with, knowing me before, from the very first” (Acts 26:4,5). “Know” is continually used in ordinary speech in just this way, as well as in many passages throughout the Scriptures (e.g., Jer.1:5; Hosea 13:5; Amos 3:2; Matt.7:22,23; John 10:14,15; Gal.4:9; 2 Tim.2:19).
In Romans 8:29, God’s “foreknowledge of us has in view gracious gifts and a glorious relationship with Him. In His own counsels, God had already established these things on our behalf long ago, long before we were born. Thus we were “foreknown” by God, having already been chosen by Him, according to His purpose, and “the vast love with which He loves us” (cf Eph.2:4).
This is not a matter of partiality at all, but of purposeful choice—“according as He chooses us” (cf Eph.1:4). Its motive is the accomplishment of a glorious goal; it is not born out of prejudice. Yet purposefulness, even as partiality, involves the choosing of some and not others (in any purpose that is less than universal in scope). This is so concerning God’s choice of us, even as in an orchestra director’s choice of the members of his orchestra. He chooses those whom he judges to be best suited to his purpose. The act of choosing need not involve the slightest taint of partiality. Furthermore, God does not choose us simply that we might be blessed, but in order to make a display of His grace in us (Eph. 2:7), and that we should become a blessing to others, serving in His work, “to have an administration of the complement of the eras to head up all in the Christ” (Eph.1:10) and “to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:20). Our calling involves “the multifarious wisdom of God” being “made known to the sovereignties and authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia” (Eph.3:10).
Among the Corinthians (and we are hardly any different), it was “the stupidity of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise,” even as the weak, ignoble and contemptible, and “that which is not,” He chooses, “that He may be disgracing the strong”—and, “that He should be discarding that which is, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God’s sight” (1 Cor. 1:27-29). Not many wise, powerful or noble, “according to the flesh,” are even called: Thus “you are observing your calling, brethren” (1 Cor.1:26).

Also your assuming that ” destruction” in the scripture you quote means everlasting punishment, or “Hell”, is also flawed. The “Temple” was “desrtoyed”, but Jesus said He would “rebiuld” it in 3 days. To destroy (destruction) doesn't neccasserily mean permanance.

Blessings, Jerry.

January 6, 2010 at 8:38 pm#168927

Participant

Hi CO,
So not all men comprise the Body of Christ.
Christ is not joined with Belial.

So why do you think all are saved again?

January 7, 2010 at 1:23 am#168964

Participant

Choosenone,

You have a long piece there. God willing, I plan to address it better later. For now I want to correct a few misunderstandings.

When I state free will I do not mean random choice as you defined free will. A person chooses according to their heart and God created their heart.

Mark 7:20-23(NIV) reads:

Quote

He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' “

If a person's heart leads them to choose one course of action in a certain circumstance that giving all things remain the same they will always choose that same course of action in that circumstance.

You do the same thing with the word “destruction”. I believe “destruction” means annihilating and not casting in to everlasting torment. I believe the word translated “everlasting” should be translated to “indeterminate time” since it is God who will judge the time of torment and not men.

January 7, 2010 at 1:43 am#168969

Participant

Hi kerwin.
I know my last post was quite long, so I don't expect a quick answer. But I do look forward to your reply when you're ready.

Also when you stated : “When I state free will I do not mean random choice as you defined free will. A person chooses according to their heart and God created their heart” I had been reading another article on “free will” which I will post below. It is rather lengthly as well, so I hope I am not burdening you with too much reading.

FREE CHOICE?

So coming back to the question of free choice, and to sum up what we have been saying, we are suggesting that what appears on the surface to be a genuine freedom of decision is in reality not so, but is in fact governed by hidden forces within our very natures—forces that were put there by God Himself when He made humanity what it is—when He created us soulish. A man’s heart may devise his ways, but, when all is said and done, it is the Lord Who directs his steps (Prov.16:9). This direction may be unperceived at the time, but is there nevertheless.

It was there in the case of Jacob and Esau, whose future actions were decided before they were born, in order that God’s purpose might “remain as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling” (Rom.9:11).

It was there in the case of Pharaoh, who, unknown to himself, was roused up for the specific purpose that God might display His power in him (Rom.9:17).

It was there in the case of humanity in general—vessels of indignation, made by God for dishonor, and adapted by Him for destruction. it is the Divine Potter Who makes them thus (Rom.9: 21,22).

It is there in the case of the ecclesia, vessels of mercy, made ready before for glory, in whom God is operating “both to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Rom.9:23; Phil.2: 13).

It is there in the case of creation itself, subjected to vanity, “not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it” (Rom.8:20). Creation cannot help itself, that all its achievements are futile because of the slavery of corruption, but we take immense comfort from the fact that, in spite of all its present “groaning and travailing,” it was subjected to vanity in expectation of the eventual realization of that glorious freedom which is now already being enjoyed by the children of God.

It is in the prison epistle of Paul to the Ephesians that we find the most absolute expression of the deity of God in relation to the points we have been considering. Here we find the phrase which puts all other scriptures into their perspective. “According to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (1:11).

God is the captain of the ship of the universe; all His creatures are its passengers. He is guiding the vessel across the ocean of time from the port that is called “All in God” to the haven that is termed “God in all.”

The passengers have wills of their own, but only as much freedom of choice as their Captain permits, which, in the absolute sense, is no freedom at all, since at all times he remains in full command. He may allow them to wander seemingly unhindered about the ship, but even so there are parts of the vessel where they are not allowed to go, and many things which they are not allowed to do. And all the time they are being carried along inevitably wherever the ship takes them—that is, wherever the Captain directs. When the ship goes wherever they want to go, they feel free, but the moment that it starts to move toward a place where they do not want to go, they know immediately that they are not free at all. But, since they are on the ship, they are under the absolute control of the Captain.

And so it is with creation. It had no choice even as to which ship it should join, or whereabouts on the ship it would find itself, nor has it any say in the direction the ship is taking. For much of its journey it is allowed to think that it is working out its own destiny, but sooner or later it is brought inexorably to the conclusion that God is in control and “is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” Thus it eventually grows into a “realization of God.” Blessed indeed are those who grow into this realization sooner rather than later.

“All is of God,” says Paul in Corinthians. “The One Who is operating all,” he says in Ephesians. If God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, can there be another free will in the universe? Can there be two Gods?

“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me,” wrote Moses at God’s dictation. “To us,” says Paul, “there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is.”

When we have fully grasped the import of these great truths, we shall no longer say “I,” or “I and God,” or even “God and I,” but simply and solely, and majestically, “God.”

His deity will then be fully recognized and acknowledged.

God Bless, Jerry.

January 7, 2010 at 1:44 am#168970

Participant

Hi CO,
A ship containing all God's passengers?
Mythical nonsense.

January 7, 2010 at 6:10 am#169008

Participant

Choosenone wrote:

Quote

Absolute libertarian free will is an absurd concept since it has to have an element of responsibility for one’s action and in order to do so the element of a random decision must be eliminated. Since doing so is like having your cake and eating it to it just cannot be.

In order to have personal responsibility then it must simply come from an internal source. That is what your source is speaking of. That element of personal responsibility pretty much eliminates random decision.

I also agree that God is our creator and I do not see anyone disagreeing with that statement. So the first paragraph of your source is pretty much correct.

On the other hand I do not know if your source has the correct grasp of Proverbs 16:9. In short it is stating that man does chose the way he plans to go but God may choose to frustrate those plans or suffer/bless them.

Proverbs 19:21 rephrases the same idea.

Proverbs 19:21(NIV) reads:

Quote

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

As you can see men make the choice not God though God does determine if the choice they make will succeed.

Does the fact that God is our creator eliminate free will? Your source seems to state it does. I find that absurd as free will being determined by internal forces. Those internal forces must get where they are in some way and since that way will be by the process of elimination “external” then it would be impossible to have free will.

On the hypothetical ship you propose the individuals have free will even though there are limits on their free will as they choose where to go within those limits on the ship.

I propose that God even limits the passengers that board the ship to only allow those passengers that will obey the rules aboard the ship. He does that because he knows what each passage will do while aboard the ship he pilots. He has no need to directly control them because he controlled who boarded the ship and knows beforehand what they would do.

I am what is considered a compatibilist and a theological determinist in that I believe free will can exist with determinism. I believe that God determines the path of creation by using his power and foreknowledge to arrange things in order to carry out his grand plan.

You appear to be a hard determinist and thus reject the idea that humans have any free will. I find both that and the libertarian view inconsistent with scripture.

January 7, 2010 at 6:31 am#169016

Participant

Hi kerwin.
Thanks for your reply, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject of free will. I refer again to Eph.1:11 … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
Even what you or I believe is in accord with Gods'will, He will guide us all to the same destination, in different ways, to the conclusion of creation, the “consummation”, when He will be “All in all” (1.Cor.15:25).

God Bless, Jerry.

January 7, 2010 at 6:48 am#169018

terraricca

Participant

CO
you not honest wen you quoted Eph 1;11 you spell it right ,but you use it wrong ,free will exist read this ;
this is Eph ;Eph 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

also IF YOU HAVE TO ACCEPTED MEANS THAT YOU CAN REFUSED AS WELL.
IT IS YOUR RESPOSABILITY TO PICK,AND YOUR RESPONSABLE FOR YOUR CHOICE.
Eph 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.
Eph 4:21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Eph 4:26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
Eph 4:27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
Eph 4:28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

the fact those people have change there way of live from what they had before shows there will to change and were not forced in to it so free will does and is real.

also because Eph;1-11 … is only possible for those who have change and accepted the new live living truth.

January 7, 2010 at 7:24 am#169020

Participant

Choosenoone,

Quote

Since salvation is not a matter of qualification, it is surely mistaken to assert that foreknowledge merely knows ahead of time who will qualify to be saved.

This is a false dichotomy since there is no reason that salvation cannot be both a matter of qualification and God’s grace at the same time.

God can certainly show grace by creating a individual that will meet the qualifications he insist on in order to be saved. In order to demonstrate that grace he then chooses to make those who will perish.

Quote

Besides, “free will” faith and acts could never be foreknown. Since there is always a “chance” they might never occur, their future existence could not be an object of knowledge.

I already pointed out that this definition of free will is not correct.

Quote

In such cases as this, in which God’s “foreknowledge” of us is in view, foreknowledge is a figure of speech.

So, the word foreknowledge is negated by calling it a figure of speech. I am not sure how to counter that since I believe any evidence I bring forth can be counted by stating it is not literal.

January 8, 2010 at 4:00 pm#169210

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kerwin………Chosenone's point is not that we (make) choices, it is are they (FREE) Will choices, a WILL (FREE) of influences is a Choice (FREE) of any influence it's the ONLY way a WILL can be said to be (TRULY) (FREE) . Your example of Prov 19:21 Has nothing to do with (FREE) WILL it is the WILL of Man versus GOD'S WILL> No one has yet produced (ONE) Scripture that shows our WILLS are (FREE) Because no such thing exists. ALL Wills are (INFLUENCED WILL). The whole concept of (FREE) Wills is (SELF Focus) Self seeking aggrandizement, Ego Based. YOU or anyone else will alway (choose) what is influencing the the most, rather it be the way of GOD or the way of Man., But it is always (influenced) and therefore can not be (FREE) of Influence and therefore is not a (FREE) will choice. Free will thinking is the way man takes His own salvation Choices to himself, brought about by his so-called (free will) Thinking. a complete distortion of the truth. Jesus said He came to set the captives free, this captivity is Mans Mind held captive by his thoughts.

Luk 4:18…..> The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the (CAPTIVES), and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. We are held captive by our thinking and it is far from FREE. Chosenone is
right in this. IMO

January 8, 2010 at 8:07 pm#169240

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2010,17:48)

the fact those people have change there way of live from what they had before shows there will to change and were not forced in to it so free will does and is real.

also because Eph;1-11 … is only possible for those who have change and accepted the new live living truth.

Hi terraricca.

Thanks for your reply. This verse you quote is the key to understanding those scriptures:- “Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts”. Being “darkened”, and “hardening of their hearts”, is of God, it is He (God) who has hardened their hearts, that is why they are ignorant in their understanding.
Here in Ro.9 is an explanation of this, and God is doing it:-

16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, “Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?”
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, “Why do you make me thus?”

Does this help? It plainly shows that God is in complete control, He (God) hardens all, that He may be merciful to all.

Blessings, Jerry.

January 8, 2010 at 8:18 pm#169242

Participant

Hi kerwin.
The post I have answered to terraricca with, would also be used to answer your previous one to me.
Also this reply of yours …”God can certainly show grace by creating a individual that will meet the qualifications he insist on in order to be saved. In order to demonstrate that grace he then chooses to make those who will perish”, I'm not sure what this means, could you reword it, or rephrase it better?

Blessings.

January 8, 2010 at 9:34 pm#169257

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 09 2010,07:07)

Does this help? It plainly shows that God is in complete control, He (God) hardens all, that He may be merciful to all.

Blessings, Jerry.

Chosenone ………Good and truthful reply, wish Nick could understand that.

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

January 8, 2010 at 9:43 pm#169260