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Hi kerwin.
Thanks for your reply, it was well thought out. But I have to disagree with your statement …”since it does not mean we are puppets under the absolute control of God as we still must choose to believe even though God constructed us to make that choice”.I know this includes many discussions on “free will”. My belief is that we do not have free will, and do not really make our own choices. As in Ehp.1:11 …according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.
Again, many believe that Gods “will” is just His “wish”, and we must strive to do His will. But in thruth, Gods' will will be done. (Isaiah 46:11) …Saying, “All my council shall be confirmed, and all my desire will I do”. An interesting quote, read around it so as to not misrepresent because of context.Also remember Saul, whose will was to persecute the church, but it was Gods' will that he be a apostle to the “nations”. He was stuck down on the road to Damascus, and his will was changed.
Another example, remember when God wanted to free His people from Egyptian slavery, and He called Moses to confront Pharaoh and brought the various plagues on his people, when Pharaoh finally said “go”, but scripture says “God hardened his heart”, and changed his mind, I'm sure you remember the rest of the story. Later on Ro.9:17, God says … For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.There are many more scriptures in the book of Romans that show God is in compete control, that “His will WILL BE DONE”.
I don't want to bore you with many quotations, I know myself that sometimes too much opinion is overwhelming.
God Bless, Jerry.
hi choseone
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Mt 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened
Mt 7:26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sandMt 8:11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”Mt 10:42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.”
Mt 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”Mt 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Mt 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”Mt 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Mt 26:54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”Jn 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”Jn 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
Ac 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the ageso i believe those scriptures would be enough to show that your conclusions of the scriptures are based on your ignorance not true knowledge.
Hi CO,
So, being careful about context, you will no longer apply the teachings for the saved to the unsaved?hi chosenone
again you don't know the scriptures yes there is free will of choice,find me in the scriptures where God forces you to worship him by force without your accord.you show God will in action in Egypt with pharaoh ,you don't take the word of God has serious ,God had promised to his people that they will not stay in Egypt and the time had come to be at that time ,read the bible don't go with mare stories.
Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 01 2010,11:26) Hi kerwin.
Thanks for your reply, it was well thought out. But I have to disagree with your statement …”since it does not mean we are puppets under the absolute control of God as we still must choose to believe even though God constructed us to make that choice”.I know this includes many discussions on “free will”. My belief is that we do not have free will, and do not really make our own choices. As in Ehp.1:11 …according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.
Again, many believe that Gods “will” is just His “wish”, and we must strive to do His will. But in thruth, Gods' will will be done. (Isaiah 46:11) …Saying, “All my council shall be confirmed, and all my desire will I do”. An interesting quote, read around it so as to not misrepresent because of context.Also remember Saul, whose will was to persecute the church, but it was Gods' will that he be a apostle to the “nations”. He was stuck down on the road to Damascus, and his will was changed.
Another example, remember when God wanted to free His people from Egyptian slavery, and He called Moses to confront Pharaoh and brought the various plagues on his people, when Pharaoh finally said “go”, but scripture says “God hardened his heart”, and changed his mind, I'm sure you remember the rest of the story. Later on Ro.9:17, God says … For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.There are many more scriptures in the book of Romans that show God is in compete control, that “His will WILL BE DONE”.
I don't want to bore you with many quotations, I know myself that sometimes too much opinion is overwhelming.
God Bless, Jerry.
Chosenone………..you have presented it right, so-called (FREE WILL) Choices has nothing to do with salvation , Scripture says “FOR HE (GOD) WORKS (IN) US BOTH TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE”. But pride prevents men from accepting this because they prefer to glorify themselves through the so-called “free will choices” rather then GOD the FATHER who CREATES us unto Good Works. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………….gene
G,
Would you apply verses written to the saved in whom God does live
to the lost who do not yet inherit that blessing?Choosenone,
I am sure that the individual who sins and refuses to repent and then is brought before God on judgment day will not get very far trying to justify his action by telling God it is God’s fault. I see nowhere in scripture that supports his point of view.
I realize we are speaking of the predestination vs. free will argument. The problem is that according to scripture both and neither are true. If by “free will” one means you have a random chance to make any choice than that is not true. If by predestination you mean God controls the actions of humankind then that is not true.
What is true is that God controls his own actions is the creator and is fully aware of all things that will and can happen before they happen. Let’s take a chess player who able to play a number of moves ahead of the game. The better he knows his opponent the better he is able to determine the best strategy. That chess player is predestinating the chess game. God acts in a similar way with complete and total knowledge of what each piece will do. He then sets the times and places for them to make the choices that he knows they will make in those circumstances. Even though he knows beforehand what choices they will make he does make those choices for them just like the chess player does not make the make the moves of his opponent even though he knows what they will be beforehand. In other words predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive.
We are judged by our choices and whether they are of darkness or of light and not by God’s choices. That is why it is written:
Romans 13:11-12(NIV) reads:
Quote And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
hi kerwin
free will in the bible case it is related to the choice we freely have to make to love God or not.
others don't like that term because they preach predestination and free will put the responsability on the person, not on God like predestination does.Hi kerwin & terraricca.
I realise that “free will” and “predestination” are frowned upon by most, and most, probably all, denominations of churches also teach 'free will' and 'heaven and hell'. I don't expect my posts will change anyones mind, but I enjoy interaction with other believers, even though sometimes we strongly disagree.Let me say that,in my opinion, this scripture sums everything up – Ro.11:33-36 … O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!I'll quote a few more, and try not to bore you with too many scriptures, but keep in mind 'all is of God' when you read them, and see if they are true…
Ro.8:28-32…28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, WHO ARE CALLED according to the purpose
29 that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.
31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
If you read this carefully, I believe you can see it is God, not you, who is accomplishing this.Ro.9:11… For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, NOT OUT OF ACTS, BUT OF HIM WHO IS CALLING,
The 'choice' is His, not ours.Ro.9:15-16 … For to Moses He is saying, “I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying.”
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, BUT OF GOD, the Merciful.Ro.9:17-18 …17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, HE is merciful, yet whom He will, HE is hardening.Ro.9:19-21 …19 You will be protesting to me, then, “Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?”
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, “Why do you make me thus?”
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?God has made us all, the good and the wicked.
Ro.11:7-8 …7 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused,
8 even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.
These few verses in particular show that “GOD IS OPERATING ALL ACCORDING TO HIS WILL'.(Eph.1:11)I know some will reply with many scriptures that ask us to “choose”, but as some of the previous scripture show, it is God who controls us as to the choice we make. And if the whole bible is studied
carefully, you will find it is not a book of “what we should do to be saved”, but a book of “what God is doing to save us”.One final scripture that explains what will happen at the “Consummation”, the “finished work of Gods creation”.
1Cor.15:22-28 …22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)What a glorious accomplishement, ALL THE GLORY goes to GOD. Thank God mankind doesn't have anything to do with his own salvation, he would mess that up as well.
1.Cor.8:4-6 … Then, concerning the feeding on the idol sacrifices: We are aware that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except One.
5 For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,
6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.God Bless, Jerry.
Jerry………….> wonderful post brother. if only more could understand that.
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
hi ch none
you are blind that you cannot even read ,?? you copy only what you want not the truth but using the scriptures twisting them to your own mind and denying the Son and by denying the Son you also denying the one who as send him God the father.
you have given your support to the adversary of Christ ,but you don't mind.
Hi terraricca.
Thanks for your reply, it's kind of difficult for me to understand what scripture that I quoted is “twisted”, it would be a benefit to me if you quoted specificaly what scripture I quoted is twisted, and, what part of what I said is “denying the Son”? Also explain the part you think says…”that I have given my support to the adversary of Christ ,but you don't mind”?
Your accusations hurt me, especially by not quoting me the scriptures that I supposedly have said that are so offensive to you.God Bless, Jerry.
Terraicca…….Pride can prevent you from accepting that GOD is the create of True righteousness in us. We like to think it's up to us , but the truth is it is not up to us, Jerry has properly posted it brother , we are “CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS”. NOT BY OUR WORKS WHICH WE HAVE DONE BUT BY THE GRACE(God's influencing on our hearts) by GOD WE ARE SAVED. “FOR HE (GOD) WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND (DO) OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. WE are caused to be saved terraicca.
Nick………Where do you get that from, i certainly rely on Scriptures as the inspired word of GOD. I quote far more scriptures here them you even begin to do. Nick it's the understand of those scriptures that really counts not just Parroting them as YOU seem to do and that is the problem here. That take GOD Spirit to give true meaning to scriptures any one can be a Parrot. IMO
Gene,
This is what you said
“Thinker……..your reliance on Scriptures rather then the Spirit of GOD, causes you much confusion. Let the Spirit (intellect) of GOD lead you and your will see the fallaciously of you beliefs. It not wrong to read scriptures but it takes the Spirit of God to properly understand them. (the spirit of truth) (intellect of truth) given by GOD the FATHER. IMO”So you say you rely on scripture but nobody else should?
This is getting confusing.hi chosenone
this is your quoted verse;Ro.9:11… For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, NOT OUT OF ACTSthis is the bible version of it ;Ro 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
this election is not you and me ,look again.here is a otherone;Ro.9:15-16 … For to Moses He is saying, “I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying
Ro 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Ro 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Ro 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
Ro 9:33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
this is the true understanding of your verses.but you are not interested to fully understand Gods way but yours.
and i stick to what i have said.
Choosenone:
Quote These few verses in particular show that “GOD IS OPERATING ALL ACCORDING TO HIS WILL'.(Eph.1:11)
Did you read and understand my previous post where I compared God to a chess master? I ask because a chess master operates all according to his will. You are in one part placing limits on God that do not exist. God created you so he decided the instant that you would come into being. He also decided who you parents would be. He did that for you and every living thing and for that matt unloving thing that you will have a dealing of any kind with. If you come to a choice in life God knew that you would come to that choice and chose to create you for that reason. When he foreknew that you would come to that choice he also foreknew the choice you would make and placed you there to make that choice.
For reasons I do not understand this seems to be a hard idea for people to except. If I were to speculate I would say that perhaps it is because God infinite power and knowledge is too vast for many people to grasp. For this reason they attempt to simplify it by arguing about free choice v predestination. Scripture teaches neither and both.
Acts 17:24-28(NIV) reads:
Quote .The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
In this teaching you can see elements of predestination as we are taught God determined the times and exact places where each man exist. But you also see elements of free choice as his reason was to give each man could choose whether or not to seek and perhaps reach out and find him. We are not taught that God makes the choice for each man but only that he puts the opportunity into each man’s life.
I have read the scriptures you wrote and they do not contradict what I have proposed and yet this scripture does contradict the idea that God makes choices for us..
You previously asked what scripture means when it states God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart. God was well aware of the choice the Pharaoh would make under the circumstances God placed him in when Mosses approached him. In fact God created the Pharaoh as well as Mosses and cast each in their role with that knowledge. In this case God manipulated Pharaoh to become stubborn but it was the Pharaoh’s choice to be stubborn which is why God also states:
Exodus 7:14(NIV) reads:
Quote Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go.
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