Is salvation by us, or of God?

[terraricca]

hi TT
you know the answer to that one ,i guess you want to know if i know right ?

this is the prophesy that foretold the coming of the gentiles into God grace but under certain condition,right?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2010,07:19)

hi TT you know the answer to that one ,i guess you want to know if i know right ? this is the prophesy that foretold the coming of the gentiles into God grace but under certain condition,right?

It is also true that Jews do not seek after God:

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:

     “ There is none righteous, no, not one;
      11 There is none who understands;
     There is none who seeks after God.
      12 They have all turned aside;
     They have together become unprofitable;
     There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Everyone finds God when they are not seeking Him whether they be Jew or Gentile. It is very important that you get yourself in a church that have skilled pastors and teachers.

thinker

[terraricca]

TT

10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

this needs understanding i know very well what those words mean,and i certainly don't need a blind guide wen i have Christ .

sorry your men made organization only help them selfs

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jack

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2010,13:14)

So if I understand you correctly God is a respecter of persons and Jesus does not draw all men unto himself?

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,14:39)

God loved Jacob but hated Esau (Rom. 9)

Yes, but that is not the whole council of God. In fact the context of Paul’s statement is in light of the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant! God rejected Esau for a reason and chose Isaac’s line for the promised Messiah who would be the means of salvation for all men.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that “GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS: But “in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him“. Acts 10:34, 35

Then Luke writes…

To him give all the prophets witness, that “through his name WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,” because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Acts 10:43-45

We are under a New Covenant and Jesus has been given all judgment for the Father judges no man.

Jesus says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, “will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

And…

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come“. And let him that heareth say, “Come“. And let him that is athirst “come“. And “WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY“.Rev 22:17

“The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now “he commands ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE to repent”, For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. “He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead”.”  Acts 17:30, 31

The command is for all people everywhere to repent. Repentance is an act of the will to submit to his will.

Come on, we are not puppets or robots, and Jesus is drawing all men to himself and commanding them to repent! Of course God can do what he wants but he has chosen to bring salvation to all men that would believe in the name of the Only Son of God and repent and follow him!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2010,13:14)

So the “whosoever will” is for only those that God wills?

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,14:39)

He will have mercy on whom HE WILL have mercy. And whom HE WILL He hardens (Romans 9).

Yes he will, and he has chosen to have mercy on those who believe on Jesus and repent and follow him!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2010,13:14)

There is an inherent thirst for God in every man which is shown by his constant worship of other things or other gods.

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,14:39)

There is none that seeketh after God (Romans 3). Man's constant worship of other things shows his thirst to be an idolater. Why would they worship other things when the revelation of God in nature declares the glory of the true God (Rom. 2).

Exactly, THEY HAVE CHOSEN not to worship the Creator but rather the creature, and still the call goes to them to repent!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2010,13:14)

But again, man can choose to obey or not to or he is just a puppet or a robot and is doomed to whatever his environment dictates!

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,14:39)

Man is a lump of clay which God can use as He sees fit. Paul said that the Potter can take of the same lump and make one vessel for glory and another vessel for dishonor as He so chooses. Paul added that we still cannot find fault with God (Rom. 9). Jack

True, but he chooses to work through those who are “Willing” to allow him!

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, “TO OFFER (paristēmi) YOUR BODIES AS LIVING SACRIFICES”, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual* act of worship. Rom 12:1

The word “Offer” (KJV=Present) is in the active. The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–“CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING, Phil 2:12

WJ

[chosenone]

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 18 2010,08:29)

Free Will: Philemon 1:14 … but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. 2 Corinthians 8:3  … I assure you that by their own free will they have given all they could, even more than they could afford. … Ezekiel 46:12  …when the prince maketh a free-will burnt-offering, or free-will peace-offerings, to Jehovah, … Plenty more… “Free Will” can be lead towards “Influenced Will” where the motives of another is heavily factored into the decision making outcome. Of course, this is not always a bad thing – depend on the rest of the situation but none the less the outcome is still the responsibility of the first person: Satan influenced the Free Will of eve to Sin Eve influenced the Free Will of Adam to Sin Adam claimed that it was Eve's fault Eve claimed that it was Satan's fault

Hi JustAskin.

I use the Concordant Literal translation bible because it is a literal word for word translation of the Greek or Hebrew. I feel that it is the most accurate translation, as others are interpetations and not actually translations. The bible you use may be different.
The scripture you quoted are as follows:

Phil.1:14 …13 so that my bonds in Christ become apparent in the whole pretorium and to all the rest,
14 and the majority of the brethren, having confidence in the Lord as to my bonds, are more exceedingly daring to speak the word of God fearlessly.

The words “free will” are not used in this scripture.

2Co.8:3 …3 for, according to their ability, I am testifying, and beyond their ability, of their own accord,
4 with much entreaty beseeching of us the grace and the fellowship of the service for the saints;

The words “free will” are not in this scripture.

Ezekeil.46:12 …And in case the prince make a voluntary ascent approach, or voluntary peace approaches Ieue, and he poens for himself the gate facing the east and makes his ascent approach and his pease approaches, just as he shall do on the sabbath day, then he fares forth and locks the gate after he fares forth.

Again, the words “free will” are not used.

I realise that this may seem like a small point to you, but I believe an accurate translation is neccessary to get the correct meaning of scripture, as an “interpetation” rather than a “translation” can be the opinion of the interpeter, and can possibly be biased.

Blessings.

[terraricca]

CO
Phm 1:13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel.
Phm 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced

it seems you have the wrong scripture quote,if not could you quote the translation you use.
i use NIV version.

it means the same thing but use different words

2Co 8:3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own

here it says the same thing in other words (not forced)

Eze 46:12 When the prince provides a freewill offering to the LORD—whether a burnt offering or fellowship

it is strange that you place you self above all expert to define what is acceptable or not ,
by not quoting your source so we may check it.

it is in no ill intention that we like to verify all thing, it is to show all truth to be true.
so please show were you take your info.

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

Yes, but that is not the whole council of God. In fact the context of Paul’s statement is in light of the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant! God rejected Esau for a reason and chose Isaac’s line for the promised Messiah who would be the means of salvation for all men.

Keith,

The context is speaking about individual salvation. Some are elected to salvation and some are not.

WJ:

Quote

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that “GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS: But “in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him”. Acts 10:34, 35

It says that every nation that fears Him is accepted with him. Salvation is not just for the Jew. It includes all nations. But each individual must be drawn to Christ by God. Salvation is by grace ALONE.

WJ:

Quote

Then Luke writes… To him give all the prophets witness, that “through his name WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,” because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Acts 10:43-45

You ignore that faith is the gift from God:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; this (faith) is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

WJ:

Quote

Jesus says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, “will draw all men unto me

It means all nations of men as opposed to Jews only. If it meant all individuals then universal salvation would be the result.

WJ:

Quote

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come”. And let him that heareth say, “Come”. And let him that is athirst “come”. And “WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY”.Rev 22:17

Only those within the gates of the city are invited. Those outside the city are kept out. The “whosoever will” is qualified by the context.

WJ:

Quote

Come on, we are not puppets or robots, and Jesus is drawing all men to himself and commanding them to repent!

We are worse than puppets and robots. We are a mere lump of clay in His hands (Rom. 9). God was not commanding the Gentiles at that time. The Gentiles were still under the revelation of God in nature and were not commanded to believe the gospel in the beginning. Again, “all men” must be qualified by the context.

WJ:

Quote

Exactly, THEY HAVE CHOSEN not to worship the Creator but rather the creature, and still the call goes to them to repent!

But God draws them to Himself. Right? It seems like you are trying ot have it both ways.

WJ:

Quote

True, but he chooses to work through those who are “Willing” to allow him!

No way! Paul said that from the same lump of clay God makes either a vessel for glory or a vessel for dishonor. How does a completed vessel for glory “allow” God to make it a vessel for glory? And how does a vessel made for destruction “allow” God to make it a vessel for destruction?

You do not comprehend the Potter and clay metaphor do you?

Jack

[terraricca]

WJ
do you have the Holy spirit?

[kerwin]

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 18 2010,23:18)

kerwin, we just saying you could have used a better example than toilet 'humour'!! that's all.

I felt it was a very good example as all human beings go bathroom. I suppose one could argue Jesus did not and therefore he was not a human being. You cannot use scripture to prove he did as it is not stated that he did.

[chosenone]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2010,13:52)

CO Phm 1:13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. Phm 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced it seems you have the wrong scripture quote,if not could you quote the translation you use. i use NIV version. it means the same thing but use different words 2Co 8:3 For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own here it says the same thing in other words (not forced) Eze 46:12 When the prince provides a freewill offering to the LORD—whether a burnt offering or fellowship it is strange that you place you self above all expert to define what is acceptable or not , by not quoting your source so we may check it. it is in no ill intention that we like to verify all thing, it is to show all truth to be true. so please show were you take your info.

Hi terraricca, I use the 'Concordant Literal Translation' bible. I feel it is the best translation, It is a word for word translation of the Greek, and Hebrew words. If you want to research this translation, see http://www.concordant.org

Blessings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2010,23:25)

WJ do you have the Holy spirit?

Absolutely!

WJ

[JustAskin]

Chosenone,
I accept your explanation of no “Free Will” in your reading.

WJ is correct in his explanation of “Free Will” – I am amazed that this is such a Hot Topic.

Peer Pressure does not deny the Free Will to say “No” – it is the weakness in the person who gives in to it – this is something that is sadly lacking in the world today leading to all sorts of problems: anarexia,, gang membership, bullyingmany other crimes, membership of suspect organisation', etc.

In all cases the individual has a choice – Free Will. If they give in to the “Influenced Will” it does not deny their responsiblility -even under-age children are subject to 'responsibility' but because of compassion we allow such things as: naivety, low mental intelligence and age to put a limit on that responsibility.

TT's unwillingness (free will choice) to want wear a seat belt does not deny the responsibility if he should be in an accident and i badly hurt.

All laws are there to bring into sharp focus the responsibility thats we have towards each other in exercising our free will:
– The selfish, ignorant or malicious exercise of Free Will can lead to tragic consequences either to ourselves and/or others
The law prescribes penalties or punishments for such wrongful exercise of Free Will.

If we did not have Free Will we could not be guilty.

If I chose (Free Will) to be driven in a car that was being driven wrecklessly and a negative incident occurs then I am guilty even though I am not the driver.

If I was influenced to be driven in a car that was being driven wrecklessly and a negative incident occurs then I am guilty even though I am not the driver.

If I tried to leave the car (or make it known vehemntly that I wanted to) when the wrecklessness became apparent to me then I can be judged innocent as my Free Will was being impeded by the inability to exit the vehicle due to it being in motion.

One of god's greatest joys must have been to create a being who was able to exercise the FREE WILL to Worship him and comply with the ONLY LAW that he gave Adam & Eve – Not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge – this was their test of obedience – and they failed due to the second part (Influenced Will).

[GeneBalthrop]

JA……….There is no such thing as a “FREE WILL” that is a oxymoron. Man likes to think he has a free will but nothing can further from the truth. Even GOD does not have a “FREE WILL:, For he does (ALL) things after the (COUNCIL) of His OWN WILL, We also do all things after the (COUNCIL) of Our WILL these (CAUSE) Us to ACT in LIFE, they are (INFLUENCED WILL) (NOT FREE) or there would be (NO) INFLUENCING GOING ON, WOULD THERE. You will always choose what is influencing you the most. A WILL is a WILL because it (IS) INFLUENCED OR IT WOULD NOT BE A WILL. But man want to be his own GOD and Wants to be FREE of any INFLUENCING, a GOD UNTO HIM or HER SELF. He holds on to HIs so-called “FREE WILL”, to give himself a GOD POSITION as Adam and Eve DID also. They did not want to be (LIKE) GOD no they wanted to BE A GOD. So they invent a word for it called “FREE” WILLS . BUT the truth is there exists NO WILL that is Not a INFLUENCED WILL. The Scriptures do not say our will are “FREE” but shows we are held captive by them. WE do not of our selves worship GOD but are caused to by the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of GOD being given US TO. Your view are of mans stand point not of GODS…..IMO

[JustAskin]

I have nothing more to say on this subject in this form (Forum?)

[terraricca]

gene
i have answer you again in a other topic look fore it.

[terraricca]

CO
i have to disagree with your statement that a word for word translation is better,
i do not know if you speak more than one language ,but i do, and wen i have to translate some of the words or expressions i find it difficult because they do not have those expressions in all the languages so i have to come as close as possible to the meaning of that expression the other language ,because the word by word would not be understood for the meaning of the thought.
and Hebrew to Greek to English is no exception.

[chosenone]

Hi terraricca.
I understand your disagreeing with a word for word translation, you explained you reason very well, and I agree with your explanation. I won't go into the detailed way that this was accomplished by this organisation, so I will leave it up to you, if you would like a very detailed way this translation was done. It can be found on this website: http://www.concordant.org. I highly recommend you to have a look at this website, it is very interesting, and goes into very detailed and complex methods. If you do look at it, will you please give me your thoughts on it? I would much appreciate it if you would.

Blessings, Jerry.

[chosenone]

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 20 2010,00:04)

One of god's greatest joys must have been to create a being who was able to exercise the FREE WILL to Worship him and comply with the ONLY LAW that he gave Adam & Eve – Not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge – this was their test of obedience – and they failed due to the second part (Influenced Will).

Hi JustAskin.

I just included your last sentence in your last post, and would like to comment briefly if I may.

I would like to quote a scripture, Eph.1:9-11 …
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

I know that this usually results in scripture being quoted back and forth with our personal views to support our position.
But take the time to look carefully what it says:

9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)

Notice He (God) is showing us what His will is that He proposed in Him (Jesus).

Now look at verse 11:

11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

This statement is not believed by most… He (God) is saying that ALL is predestined …being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

To sum things up, if God is in comlete control like this says, how can we possibly have free will?

Thanks for reading this, I'm sure you will reply with reasons not to believe this, but I'm interested in what you think.

Blessings, Jerry.

[terraricca]

CO
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)

Notice He (God) is showing us what His will is that He proposed in Him (Jesus).
this is the good news preaching to the world so all people not only Jews but gentiles as well can now receive the grace of God by obeying to the will of God of there free will ,that's why it is preached to the world.

11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
if it was not for Christ willingness to die for our sins we would have no way to be saved free will or not
there would not have been a choose at all.

To sum things up, if God is in complete control like this says, how can we possibly have free will?

God do not like dummies ,other wise he would have created them in the first place.
and God has all under his control ,look around you if he would not those stupid men would have blow up the planet already 30 years ago.

but is purpose is to save not to destroy so he give time to people to make up their mind,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to keep his promise. He is not slow in the way some people understand it. He is patient with you. He does’t want anyone to be destroyed. Instead, he wants all people to turn away from their sins

do not turn the patience of God against yourself.use you free will and come to Christ for forgiveness

[JustAskin]

CO,
There is no mystery here. It is an often misunderstood concept brought about by sinful thinking – to wit:
'I want to believe that what I do has already ordained, therefore I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MY OWN ACTS!'

This is the truth of the matter:
God has given us free will to do as we please but we have abused that free will.

However, free will is not the central theme of God's pre-destiny. The central theme is that Whatever God has spoken will be accomplished and God has spoken that he will create the universe and all things within it – both inanimate and animate. The greatest of his animate creation is mankind, in whom he has put a spirit much like his own (hence we are called 'gods') and to that end he expects God-like behaviour from us.
Since we have fallen short of that expectation, he has given us knowledge (Through Christ, the Hoky Soirit and the Scriptures) and time to recover the position.
We all,individuslly, have the free will to accept his offer. At the end of time, those who do not accept will be destroyed.
Those that accepted will becone established in God's spoken plan.

Yes, there are some who have been marked out for destruction and some for salvation from the start, but such ones are few.
Satan, challenged God and God gave him a few and God chose a few so that some from mankind will lead others from mankind to, and some, away from God by their human example.

[Author]

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