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Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,18:52) David, If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are. I was not taught such things.
On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs. It did not have anything to do with fertility.
I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy. Nothing about fertility there as well.
I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility.
I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets. I also like to pray.
Kerwin, notice the many posts where I capitalized the word “INTRINSICALLY.”As I have repeatedly said, I don't believe eggs are intrinsically bad. Nor bunnies, obviously.
I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE PAGAN OBJECTS!
And, on your second thought, it doesn't matter what you were taught.
If someone is taught that Satan is good, or that racism is good, on being taught otherwise, they should now act in accord with what the actual truth is, not what they were taught. Right?I eat eggs for breakfast. I love eggs. They are great.
But if in 1483, someone decided that on every sept 15, they would worship Satan while wearing yellow hats and eating pink popcorn and chocolate, and this became a tradition that developed from this paganism, would it be good to take that same day and out on a yellow hat and for “fun” eat popcorn and chocolate.
You now say that you are free to eat pink popcorn and of course you are. But what purpose does it serve if for the sake of your freedom, you appear to be imitating pagans by imitating their customs on the day of that celebration?Quote That is not why I accuse others of having a religious spirit. It is because you teach that God hates it and that is according to your persuasion yet you cannot prove with scripture that something is evil simply because it is a man made tradition or that it is similar to something that pagans do. If it were simply “similar” to pagan customs, that is one thing. But to purposely choose to do things the way pagans did them on the day that pagans did them, that is different.
It's not a coincidence that trees and lights and holly and mistletoe are brought into the home at that time. There is a reason. It's not accidentally “similar”.
It's purposeful. There is a reason behind it. And you can say that this reason is “fun” (and these things might be fun, but “fun” is NOT the reason that those specific things are done on that specific date.
Hence, it's purposeful imitation. Imitation is the best form of flattery. The pagans who first did these things might be flattered that their customs still exist.
Quote There is a VAST difference between what Christians do and what pagans do but there are also similarities. You want to claim some are evil based on the idea that pagans do certain customs, but then why not include all the things that pagans do that are similar to what Christians do or what God's people in the OT have done. In other words here are some similar things that pagans and Christians/Hebrews do or have done. ITS NOT THE FACT THAT THEY DO SIMILAR THINGS. It's the fact that one is COPYING the other. What cause of concern would it be to any of us if pagans started copying Christians?
Imitate Christ. Don't imitate pagans.
Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2012,07:03) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,18:52) David, If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are. I was not taught such things.
On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs. It did not have anything to do with fertility.
I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy. Nothing about fertility there as well.
I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility.
I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets. I also like to pray.
Kerwin, notice the many posts where I capitalized the word “INTRINSICALLY.”As I have repeatedly said, I don't believe eggs are intrinsically bad. Nor bunnies, obviously.
I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE PAGAN OBJECTS!
And, on your second thought, it doesn't matter what you were taught.
If someone is taught that Satan is good, or that racism is good, on being taught otherwise, they should now act in accord with what the actual truth is, not what they were taught. Right?I eat eggs for breakfast. I love eggs. They are great.
But if in 1483, someone decided that on every sept 15, they would worship Satan while wearing yellow hats and eating pink popcorn and chocolate, and this became a tradition that developed from this paganism, would it be good to take that same day and out on a yellow hat and for “fun” eat popcorn and chocolate.
You now say that you are free to eat pink popcorn and of course you are. But what purpose does it serve if for the sake of your freedom, you appear to be imitating pagans by imitating their customs on the day of that celebration?
David,I look on these issues as judging another's servant. As you stated they are not intrinsically evil so whatever one chooses to do it for the Lord.
A custom is of no matter. What is important is the desires of one's heart.
Live by the Spirit of Love and those customs will serve God.
Hi Kerwin.
Quote David, I look on these issues as judging another's servant. As you stated they are not intrinsically evil so whatever one chooses to do it for the Lord.
Kerwin, let's go over what “intrinsically” means, because I don't think you understand what I am saying.
A knife can be used for good or evil. It isn't intrinsically bad (bad in itself) but it certainly can be used for bad.
I like knives. But I hate it when people are stabbed with them.
I like fun. But I think God dislikes it when ancient pagan customs are purposely imitated for fun.A knife isn't intrinsically bad. But using a knife for violence is bad.
Please, let's not focus on the knife and say you are free to use a knife and to say that knives aren't bad. I don't argue that evergreens or lights or whatever are bad. I argue that using them in imitation of pagan customs is clearly unquestioningly wrong–not a matter of conscience. The Bible is extremely clear about learning the ways of pagans, about imitating or getting involved in anything to do with the worship of false gods…including imitating the religious customs used in their celebrations.
The problem with the “desires of ones heart” is that: Everyone thinks their heart is adjusted right.
'The heart is treacherous' the Bible says. We find ways to make ourselves believe what we want to. Every criminal in sing sing thinks they were right in their actions. They feel justified. They may understand their actions were wrong, but they feel they had no choice. Virtually every person in prison feels they did what they had to do. The heart is treacherous. Instead of trusting in your heart, the Bible says to trust in God. It says this over and over and over again. Do not trust your heart. It can deceive you.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2012,12:48) Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2012,07:03) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,18:52) David, If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are. I was not taught such things.
On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs. It did not have anything to do with fertility.
I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy. Nothing about fertility there as well.
I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility.
I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets. I also like to pray.
Kerwin, notice the many posts where I capitalized the word “INTRINSICALLY.”As I have repeatedly said, I don't believe eggs are intrinsically bad. Nor bunnies, obviously.
I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE PAGAN OBJECTS!
And, on your second thought, it doesn't matter what you were taught.
If someone is taught that Satan is good, or that racism is good, on being taught otherwise, they should now act in accord with what the actual truth is, not what they were taught. Right?I eat eggs for breakfast. I love eggs. They are great.
But if in 1483, someone decided that on every sept 15, they would worship Satan while wearing yellow hats and eating pink popcorn and chocolate, and this became a tradition that developed from this paganism, would it be good to take that same day and out on a yellow hat and for “fun” eat popcorn and chocolate.
You now say that you are free to eat pink popcorn and of course you are. But what purpose does it serve if for the sake of your freedom, you appear to be imitating pagans by imitating their customs on the day of that celebration?
David,I look on these issues as judging another's servant. As you stated they are not intrinsically evil so whatever one chooses to do it for the Lord.
A custom is of no matter. What is important is the desires of one's heart.
Live by the Spirit of Love and those customs will serve God.
Hi Kerwin,When we see a brother or sister in Christ doing something that is AGAINST what GOD tells us, as believers, to do, we are told to rebuke him.
“Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; Luke17:3
When a brother sins according to GOD's word and we tell him, it is rebuking, not judging. We are considered judging (and not rebuking) our brethren in Christ, when neither brother is wrong in GOD's eyes in what they are doing, yet one tries to tell the other that they are wrong because they don't do it the same way as them.
Which Paul explains in Romans 14. As far as what Paul is saying about 'judging another's servant', he is really REBUKING the more mature servant! What he is saying is the less mature may not do something quite the way you do it but if what they are doing is NOT GOING AGAINST GOD, we are to let them alone as it only depends then on one's own conscience as to what is wrong. In the case of Romans 14 it was all about food sacrificed to idols, Paul explains that the eating or abstaining is up to the believer as neither way is considered a sin by GOD. It was considered judging because the less mature believer wasn't sinning against GOD but only against the mature believer's own conscience. The mature believers were in the wrong and were rebuked by Paul.
So when we see another brother or sister in Christ sinning against God we are to rebuke them and tell them where they are wrong. In the case of copying pagan means of worship, we are told, in His Word, it is wrong and a sin as it is against GOD.
“Be careful to heed all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and with your children after you for ever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take heed that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? – that I also may do likewise' You shall not do so to the LORD your God; for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; Deuteronomy 12:28-31
So according to this passage, (there are others as well, but I will only use this one for now) it is AGAINST GOD if we take the objects and customs that pagans used to worship their gods and use them to the LORD our God. Take notice He told them to DESTROY everything pagan, not use them in a different way! All you have to do is google Easter and Christmas and you will see that not only the objects that they used in Babylon are being used by Christians today, but the same dates are being used as well! YOU may not see them as pagan objects or holidays but GOD still does!
You may not have been taught that they were considered pagan but that doesn't mean that what you were taught was right according to God's Word. Not all customs/traditions are bad and against GOD. But there are some that aren't good and according to the LORD. Those that are not according to His Word we are told NOT to do! So customs do matter! What matters about them is that what ever customs we follow we better make sure they are in alignment with God's Word! You need to check out for yourself whether these two traditions/customs are in alignment with everything in His Word.
“And why do you transgress the commandment of God for sake of your tradition?” “So for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.” Matthew 15: 3,6
“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” Matthew 15:8,9
You say “all that matters is the desire of the heart”? What about the desire of Gods heart? Why do we not think of Him and what He wants? Why is it always about us?
He tells us in His Word what His heart wants (His commandments) but instead, we do what WE want and try to justify it by saying, “He knows my heart”. Yes, you are right, He does! In the verse above, Yeshua is saying that your heart is far from Him, you are only doing lip service! Your worship is in vain! Why? Because you are ignoring His commands (His heart), your heart desires instead to disobey Him and follow your own precepts as if they were HIS doctrine. So yes, you are right, He certainly does know your heart! If you were loving Him with your WHOLE heart, you would want to do what pleases HIM, not yourself!
In the instance of Christmas and Easter, they are precepts of men based on pagan roots and not the doctrine of GOD! So what you are doing, by insisting on keeping these customs that are not from God, is NOT 'living in the Spirit of Love'. 'Living in the Spirit of Love would be obeying Him. And the only thing these particular customs will do is keep you in DISOBEDIENCE to GOD!
That is amazing to say that Christmas and Easter/Resurrection Day are precepts of men and not the doctrine of God. Really? The story surrounding the birth of Christ is not found in the Bible? Men just established the whole celebration…there were no angels rejoicing in heaven? Of course the story is in the Bible and of course a multitude of angels were celebrating the birth of Christ. Where on earth do people get the idea that Christmas, the celebration of Christ's birth is a precept of men? Also, the Resurrection Day, that is certainly in the Bible and was celebrated by the early Christians and disciples. God established the events and both are foundational to the church. The events are God established and not man established. Men celebrate these events annually…good for those of us who do inspite those who want to not celebrate and are judgemental over insignificant details. Patricia King wrote a couple of letters addressing this and I think that she put it very well. Here are the links to the letters with some excerts:
http://www.identitynetwork.org/apps….id=2093
Factions in the church today
I think of the church today with all our factions. One group stands against another due to differences in doctrinal and theological interpretations. We sometimes refuse to have anything to do with another due to differences of beliefs and yet we all believe that Jesus is Lord. We judge and condemn each other refusing to fellowship or labor together. Let's beware: a house divided itself will fall.December is the month where the Christian world celebrates the birth of Christ. The traditional belief of the date of Christ's conception was March 25 (around the spring equinox) and December 25th was nine months later. It is this date that we celebrate as the birth of Christ. Many have refuted this date as being accurate and it is possible and even probable that it is not. Should this make a difference to our heart's focus though?
Wars are arising in the church even concerning the celebration of Christmas. Some challenge the celebration saying that it has pagan roots. They challenge the accuracy of the date, they claim that Christmas trees are evil because they were an object of pagan worship and that caroling also has its foundation in paganism. Some say, we should honor the Jewish feasts (Bible feasts) instead. Others in the body believe that to do so would be an expression of legalism and religion and so the factions begin – the war rages.
Purity of the heart is important
Let us be careful not to get our focus off of what is important. Man looks to the outward appearance but God looks to the heart. If our desire is to celebrate the birth of Jesus at this time of year, then let that be done according to the purity of the heart and with integrity of conviction before Him. The attention of the whole world is called to acknowledge the birth of the Savior at this time of year even if they don't believe. Let's pray during this time that the revelation of Christ will fill the earth. Would this not be a better way to spend our time rather than being at war with each other over how we celebrate Him?A second letter from Patrician King:
http://www.identitynetwork.org/apps….id=2093
Controversy about roots of paganism in Christmas celebration
I did not grow up in a Christian home, but at Christmas we all knew what the season was about. In school we celebrated the birth of Christ and prepared drama presentations (one year I got to play one of the shepherds, and another year, an angel – smile). We all went to church and sang hymns about Jesus. It was a reverent time.In looking back, I believe those days were filled with pure belief regarding the Lord Jesus coming into the earth, even if people didn't attend church regularly. There was a focus on Him that was beautiful. It was a tradition, yes…but a good one don't you think? The seeds of the gospel that were sown in me through the carols, nativity scenes, etc during those times eventually bore fruit as I came to know Him personally in a born-again experience years later.
I don't remember any pagan festival around the celebration of Jesus at Christmas, although materialism and the highlighting of Santa Clause pulled and tugged on the hearts to grab the attention of the season. Unfortunately over the years, this materialistic pressure has conquered many hearts and drawn them away from the true focus of the season.
Perhaps December 25th was a day when there were pagan practices but the worship of Jesus as the Savior of the world is not at all pagan. Can you see the difference? Can you rightly divide this?
The discrepancy is not about the date or if there were pagan practices going on, it is about where the heart is. God always looks at the heart. Man (or religion) is about the outward appearances.
Quote That is amazing to say that Christmas and Easter/Resurrection Day are precepts of men and not the doctrine of God. Really? The story surrounding the birth of Christ is not found in the Bible? Men just established the whole celebration…there were no angels rejoicing in heaven? –LU
LIGHTENUP, do you know that thing where people create a false argument that is easier to break apart than the actual argument (a strawman fallacy).
Well, that is exactly what you are doing.
First, people on here kept repeatedly saying that Eggs (for example) aren't bad.
WELL NO ONE IS SAYING THEY ARE (intrinsically) bad, just as no one is saying a knife is intrinsically bad. It is how the thing is used.
Now you are making it appear as if we are saying that the story of Jesus' birth isn't in the Bible.
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!
We know that Christ commanded us to celebrate the memorial of his death:
“keep doing this in remembrance of me.” he said (Luke)He didn't do this of his birth or of any other event, because it was his death that was of life saving importance. His birth was necessary so that he could die for us, but it is his death that meant so much and hence it is the only thing that we are commanded to celebrate.
I could state that unquestionably, the earliest Christians DID NOT celebrate his birth, because that is a fact. But, getting back:
It's NOT that we think eggs (for example) are intrinsically bad.
It's NOT that we don't think the Bible mentions Jesus' birth.
It is that:
God hates idols.
God hates those who worship idols.Now, putting those 2 truths together, LU, how do you think God feels about those who incorporate ancient pagan customs into Christian worship?
God's word even says to not learn the way of the pagans. So, why copy/imitate/make it look like you are doing the same things on the same day that the pagans did them?
Quote Where on earth do people get the idea that Christmas, the celebration of Christ's birth is a precept of men?
Where does GOD tell us to “celebrate” Jesus' birth? Which scripture? I can very easily point to the scripture where we are told to memorialize his death.
The fact that the earliest Christians didn't celebrate Jesus' birth should get us asking question:
–WHY didn't they celebrate his birth?
–What do they know that I perhaps don't?
–Why were their views on Jesus' birth different from mine?Quote December is the month where the Christian world celebrates the birth of Christ. Well, NO. It's the day when basically the world celebrates whatever–some think of Christ, others think of fun and presents and parties. Most of the people who celebrate Christmas aren't even Christian.
Quote Perhaps December 25th was a day when there were pagan practices but the worship of Jesus as the Savior of the world is not at all pagan. Can you see the difference? Can you rightly divide this? Yes, I can and do divide it. The problem is, you want to put them together–Christ with the paganism.
Quote The discrepancy is not about the date or if there were pagan practices going on, it is about where the heart is. God always looks at the heart. The problem is, “the heart is treacherous.” It wants what it wants and it wants fun more than truth.
Have you ever considered how Jesus feels about what you are doing?
Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman’s home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He does not favor the celebration of birthdays. He does not like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man’s enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it?
Yes, you say that you don't do those things. But that is what Christmas is. It is what Christmas has always been, from the beginning when it was called the Saturnalia.
I certainly know if I wanted to make my parent mad, and I was throwing them a party every year, I would pick the date of their enemy to do it on. It makes perfect sense. And then, I would adopt the practices and customs of people my parents hate and do those things on that day. As long as it's fun, and no one gets hurt, and we say it's for my parents, those other things don't matter. Well, they might actually matter a great deal to the only ones that matter–my parents.
LU, please answer me this;
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus' birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practice for the pagans) They didn't just neglect to do so. They purposefully avoided celebrating them. My question to you: WHY? Why do you think? And DO YOU THINK THEIR REASONS ARE UNIMPORTANT? WERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS WRONG IN THEIR THINKING? IF SO, WHY?
LU………..Even the word Easter comes from the ancient Pagan Word Estar , She was the pagan GODDESS of sex and Fertility (easter eggs and bunny rabbits) . David is right those ancient pagan day were incorporated into Christianity by the Greeks and ROMAN Pagans The pagans Emperors like Constantine and others allowed them to be incorporated into Christianity, because in those days they were commanded to accept Christians who were Pagans and were being forced to adopt the Christian religion under those rulers but were allowed to Keep those pagan days and merge them to meet their days of worship of there Pagan Gods. Both Christmas and Easter have their roots in ancient Pagan teachings. In Fact the word EASTER is not even in the BIBLE. As i recall the only place it was written was supposed to be PASSOVER there.
peace and love……………………………………………………………gene
Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2012,20:28) Quote There is a VAST difference between what Christians do and what pagans do but there are also similarities. You want to claim some are evil based on the idea that pagans do certain customs, but then why not include all the things that pagans do that are similar to what Christians do or what God's people in the OT have done. In other words here are some similar things that pagans and Christians/Hebrews do or have done. ITS NOT THE FACT THAT THEY DO SIMILAR THINGS. It's the fact that one is COPYING the other. What cause of concern would it be to any of us if pagans started copying Christians?
Imitate Christ. Don't imitate pagans.
David,
I think the problem is with our different PERSPECTIVES. I see what the Christians do as REPLACING pagan customs and you see what Christians do as IMITATING pagan customs.Do you remember the story of when God told Gideon to tear down the altar of Baal and to replace it with an altar to the LORD?
Judges 6:25-26
25Now on the same night the LORD said to him, “Take your father’s bull and a second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal which belongs to your father, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it; 26and build an altar to the LORD your God on the top of this stronghold in an orderly manner, and take a second bull and offer a burnt offering with the wood of the Asherah which you shall cut down.”You might consider that as imitating the pagans by building an altar…both were called altars. The first was for pagan purposes, the replacement was for the purpose of the LORD.
That is what my perspective is with this. The Christians have REPLACED (not imitated) the customs and traditions of the pagans.
Can you imagine the Lord saying something like this:“Do not replace the customs and traditions of the pagans, let them keep their pagan meaning. What the LORD has made as good, they made evil and so don't tear down their evil strongholds, just let them alone and let them continue to make evil what the LORD has made for good.?”
Well, I don't imagine that the Lord would say that. As we see in the passage about the tearing down the altar to the pagan god, God wants us to replace that which has the stronghold of evil with that which is for Him.
It seems like you want Christians to let the pagans have their day, their customs and traditions and let them be.
What a different perspective that is from Christians who take back the day, the eggs, bunnies, trees and whatever else that GOD MADE GOOD by REPLACING the evil purpose that the pagans used them for with a purpose for good and not evil.
This makes the pagans mad that 'their' day has been taken over by Christians and their god and goddess are not the ones honored on those days.
Jesus isn't the one that is mad. This shows that JESUS IS VICTORIOUS…not the pagan god and goddess.
You want the pagans to have their day separate from Christian celebrations and I want to replace their celebrations with Christian celebrations. I can just imagine that if their days weren't replaced then they would get the attention on Dec. 25th and Easter Sunday. Christians have taken the focus OFF of the evil and REPLACED it with GOOD.
God gives us example after example of REPLACING things. He replaced Canaanites with Israelites in the land of Canaan. He replaced Isaac with the ram in the thicket. Our sin is replaced with His righteousness, etc.
So, if you just use the PERSPECTIVE that Christians have REPLACED the pagan meaning INSTEAD OF IMITATED the pagan meaning, you can see that this is not evil in the sight of the Lord but being victorious in the sight of the Lord.
Quote
Imitate Christ. Don't imitate pagans.Yes, let's imitate Christ and take down strongholds and replace them with the truth that He was born to be God with us, Emmanuel, and that He died and was resurrected. Even the pagans are aware of this because Christians have 'stomped on their parade,' so to speak and they see the difference. They aren't happy about it. They don't know how to behave when they go to their relatives home where Christ is honored on Dec. 25th…it makes them uncomfortable when their relatives join hands with them to thank the Lord for Jesus.
Replace the strongholds that the pagans have established…seize the day for the glory of God, David.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2012,07:19) LU………..Even the word Easter comes from the ancient Pagan Word Estar , She was the pagan GODDESS of sex and Fertility (easter eggs and bunny rabbits) . David is right those ancient pagan day were incorporated into Christianity by the Greeks and ROMAN Pagans The pagans Emperors like Constantine and others allowed them to be incorporated into Christianity, because in those days they were commanded to accept Christians who were Pagans and were being forced to adopt the Christian religion under those rulers but were allowed to Keep those pagan days and merge them to meet their days of worship of there Pagan Gods. Both Christmas and Easter have their roots in ancient Pagan teachings. In Fact the word EASTER is not even in the BIBLE. As i recall the only place it was written was supposed to be PASSOVER there. peace and love……………………………………………………………gene
Gene,
Like I just posted to David, the Christians have REPLACED what the pagans have built. Also, the name 'Easter' has the origin of the word 'east' also, where the sun rises, and is associated with the dawn of the first day when the Son rose from the dead. The pagans do not call their day 'Easter' they call it Ostara. The Europeans call it Pasha. Many Christians call it the 'Resurrection Day' and you can see that 'resurrection' is in the Bible. So your argument about the name of the day is irrelevant.Quote Both Christmas and Easter have their roots in ancient Pagan teachings. Actually, Christmas, which is about the story of Christ's birth, and Easter, which is about the death and resurrection of Christ, definitely have their roots from two of the most glorious events that took place in Christianity. Many of the established feasts pointed to these two events. No pagan roots there. Anything pagan that can be found on those days was REPLACED with those true Christian events.
Those who believe that the date of Dec. 25th was not the actual birth date of Christ are very likely correct. Christmas isn't just about one day though, it is a story that took place over several months beginning with the angel visiting Mary and ending with Joseph fleeing to Egypt. It is very possible that Mary had conceived near the end of December and Hanukkah takes place near the end of December which is a celebration of light. Jesus is the True Light. The conception within the virgin was the miraculous part, the birth was just a result of the miracle.
Do not paganize what God established, Gene.
David,
you said:
Quote First, people on here kept repeatedly saying that Eggs (for example) aren't bad. WELL NO ONE IS SAYING THEY ARE (intrinsically) bad, just as no one is saying a knife is intrinsically bad. It is how the thing is used.
Now you are making it appear as if we are saying that the story of Jesus' birth isn't in the Bible.
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!
We know that Christ commanded us to celebrate the memorial of his death:
“keep doing this in remembrance of me.” he said (Luke)He didn't do this of his birth or of any other event, because it was his death that was of life saving importance. His birth was necessary so that he could die for us, but it is his death that meant so much and hence it is the only thing that we are commanded to celebrate.
Yes, people keep saying that eggs aren't bad. The others also keep saying that the Christian use of eggs is not part of a worship of creation. You seem to gloss over this.
No one is saying that they celebrate Christmas and Easter because of a command, but because the events of the birth and resurrection are fundamental to the Christian faith and what the original commanded feasts are pointing to. Christians do follow the command of God to take communion because it was a command. They do not celebrate Christmas and Easter because it was a command but because they believe that it celebrates two main events that, without them, there would be no gospel of Christ, which is the foundation of the Christian church.
These celebrations were not officially celebrated annually until a few hundred years after they took place but that doesn't make them evil or rooted in paganism. I believe that the Resurrection was celebrated on the first day of the week though and that is why the first day of the week was when the Christians began to regularly meet. Many things were going on during the early days of the church, like the persecution of anyone that worshiped Christ as Lord. It is no wonder that big, public celebrations were not made to draw attention to those who would then be turned over to the lions. When Christianity was free from the threats of persecution and Christianity was established as the religion of the nation, then Christmas and Easter were also established. It makes sense when you look at the difference between the time that Christians were being martyred and the time when they were not.
Look at the Christians in Muslim countries where they are persecuted. They probably do not put up blinking lights around their home and on a Christmas tree at Christmas time because it will draw attention to their faith and bring persecution. They spread the gospel in a more discreet way. Those Christians in other parts of the world do feel that freedom though and do draw attention to their faith at Christmas and Easter time and because of this, many have learned of the gospel message and that God has a Son. That is a good thing
So, about the early church, that would be a probable explanation as to why the annual celebrations were not established till later.
Now, regarding the early church fathers' writings, you need to be aware that most worshiped Jesus as the Creator, who was begotten, not created, as opposed to those who claim that He did not exist at one point, they did not see Him as some created angel.
I believe that denying Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord WORSHIP and RECOGNITION as the CREATOR is the issue that God hates, not what day we celebrate the story of His Son's birth or the fact that we do celebrate it. I believe that it pleases God when we celebrate His goodness to us when we are not commanded to do so. In fact, that is even better to honor Him without being told to do it.
Quote Most of the people who celebrate Christmas aren't even Christian. Those that aren't Christians that celebrate Christmas likely know that those that are Christians celebrate it because of Jesus as the Son of God. At least they are aware that there is a faith that believes in the Son of God and that His name is Jesus. Without Christmas, this would be much less of an awareness, imo. It is because of Christmas that more people are told the gospel message, Easter too. That is a very good thing and a means to carry out the great commission which was a command, btw.
There David, I believe that I have directly or indirectly answered your questions. However, I may have missed some. If you are still wondering something, feel free to ask.
Lu…………I think you have read different sources then i Have on this. The Idea of “EAST” ER bing that Christ rose from the grave on “Easter” Morning is also false , When Mary came to the Grave Before the sunrise on the first day of the week Sunday , Jesus was not there he had already been raised from the grave. Actually He arose around 3:00 PM Saturday after noon. He died about 3:00 Pm Wednesday afternoon that was when the Passover started , and it was a Holy day which began at sundown Wednesday or the beginning of Thursday according to the Jewish Calendar, and The day period starter the evening before at sundown. The Lamb had to have been already Killed and per-paired before sundown when it was eaten, and then that started the Passover time period, and that went on till Thursday evening which started Friday and it was also a holy day ( the first day of unleavened Bread), another Holy Day in which no work could be done , and when that was over at Friday evening, then started the regular Sabbath (Saturday) another day in which no work could be done, and that lasted till Saturday evening when the First Day of the week began .
So Mary and them could not go to Jesus on the previous day Because it was against the Law and they could not administer the em-bombing herbs, So the went at first Light before the Sun rose on Sunday the first day of the week and Jesus was already risen. There was not “Easter Sunrise Service ” Event even though it sounds good it did not happen .
Hi Gene,
The day that Jesus died is debatable. If I were walking with you on a Sunday late afternoon and said that my brother was killed and that this was the third day since it happened…what day did my brother get killed? If you can answer that correctly, then you will know what day Jesus died. Just read this bit about the story of the Road to Emmaus which took place late in the afternoon on that first day of the week when the tomb was found empty.On the Road to Emmaus
Luke 24:13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19“What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn’t find his body.
I think that it is likely that He arose when the stone was rolled away at the time of the earthquake or just before.
Jesus Is Risen!
Matt 28:1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6“He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said.
Hi Annie. Good posts BTW
Some here like to encourage others to be a part of the world and it's ways. Best to just let them be, they will not see it.
Quote David,
I think the problem is with our different PERSPECTIVES. I see what the Christians do as REPLACING pagan customs and you see what Christians do as IMITATING pagan customs.Do you remember the story of when God told Gideon to tear down the altar of Baal and to replace it with an altar to the LORD?
Yes, I do remember that. They tore them down. They didn't then make copies of them. They didn't then in any way imitate their actions.
“In the year 601 AD, Pope Gregory came up with a brilliant idea that developed into a basic principle in Christian missionary work. Instead of obliterating traditional customs and beliefs, he decreed that missionaries should use them. If a tree was the object of worship, turn it in to God’s tree. One of the results of this policy was that Catholic holy days were set at the time of traditional holy days. Winter solstice, for instance, became Christmas. In the 9th century, the church attempted to root out the paganism associated with the Samhain festival, by moving All Saint’s Day from May to November 1”
The question is:
DOES TAKING A PAGAN CUSTOM AND GIVING IT A “CHRISTIAN” STAMP OF APPROVAL ACTUALLY MAKE IT OK? Or, is that just self deception?
Quote Judges 6:25-26
25Now on the same night the LORD said to him, “Take your father’s bull and a second bull seven years old, and pull down the altar of Baal which belongs to your father, and cut down the Asherah that is beside it; 26and build an altar to the LORD your God on the top of this stronghold in an orderly manner, and take a second bull and offer a burnt offering with the wood of the Asherah which you shall cut down.”You might consider that as imitating the pagans by building an altar…both were called altars. The first was for pagan purposes, the replacement was for the purpose of the LORD.
Which customs of the pagans did they adopt? If I was watching from above, I would see them at their “alter to the lord.” I wouldn't see anything to make me think that they were imitating pagans.
To make this illustration fit, let's imagine that
1. the pagans wore a mask in the image of one of their Gods.
2. the pagans did this on a particular day.
3. the pagans has certain specific customs associated with their worship
4. the pagans did this only on a specific day.And, after they tore down those alters, the Hebrews put up their own alters and then for some reason (to appease the pagans perhaps, or to make their own form of worship more popular or acceptable to others) they then adopt the 4 things above. In that case, your illustration would fit. But, The Hebrews didn't do this. They were SPECIFICALLY TOLD not to learn the ways of the heathens.
Your comparison doesn't fit, unless you add a series of imitations such as the 4 I listed above.
Quote Can you imagine the Lord saying something like this: “Do not replace the customs and traditions of the pagans, let them keep their pagan meaning. What the LORD has made as good, they made evil and so don't tear down their evil strongholds, just let them alone and let them continue to make evil what the LORD has made for good.?”
True Christians are in the world but are to be “no part of the world” as Jesus said his true followers would be. Further, as regards the mixing of true with false worship:
1 CORINTHIANS 10:20-22
“I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons. Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?”2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-17
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””What harmony is there between true Christianity and lies or paganism? None.
What sharing does true worship have with lies? None.
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