Is Jesus still a man in heaven?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2011,23:28)

Mike i think that, that scripture only testify that it was Christ ,but was it the real body ? because they never recognized him each time that he appear to them , Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I think that if Jesus was a spirit being who just “manifested” a flesh and bone body to FOOL his disciples, he would have been being deceitful.

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2011,23:28)

but would this be a glorious resurrection in a glorious body ?if he resurrected in the old body he sacrificed ? as atonement for us all

He not only sacrificed his body, Pierre, but also his own life.  And he received the life back, so why not the body?  Also, the body Jesus remained on earth with was not the “glorious body” he now has in heaven.

Consider Lazarus.  Jesus raised him from the dead, not to live in heaven, but to live a while longer on earth.  So, was Lazarus raised back to life in a new body?  Or the same old body he died in?

It was the latter, correct?  Why?  Because Lazarus did not need a new, glorious spiritual body just to live out his remaining years on earth, did he?  

Similarly, Jesus did not yet need his new, glorious spiritual body just to remain on earth for 40 more days.  He didn't need that new, glorious body until he ascended into heaven and inherited the Kingdom of God.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2011,02:45)

Mike, You wrote to Marty that: Quote Scripture doesn't record the transformation Jesus underwent as he ascended into heaven.  But he left the earth as flesh and blood, and we know those things cannot inherit God's Kingdom. I want to point out to you that scripture does not record angels tranforming either.

Yes, Kerwin,

But unlike in the case of Jesus, scripture doesn't record an angel ever being flesh in the first place, so that it would have to transform to be in heaven.

[mikeboll64]

I'm enjoying this discussion greatly. But I am wondering if anyone is ever going to post a scripture that clearly teaches us that Jesus is still a human being in heaven?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2011,11:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2011,23:28) Mike i think that, that scripture only testify that it was Christ ,but was it the real body ? because they never recognized him each time that he appear to them , Pierre Hi Pierre, I think that if Jesus was a spirit being who just “manifested” a flesh and bone body to FOOL his disciples, he would have been being deceitful. Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2011,23:28) but would this be a glorious resurrection in a glorious body ?if he resurrected in the old body he sacrificed ? as atonement for us all He not only sacrificed his body, Pierre, but also his own life.  And he received the life back, so why not the body?  Also, the body Jesus remained on earth with was not the “glorious body” he now has in heaven. Consider Lazarus.  Jesus raised him from the dead, not to live in heaven, but to live a while longer on earth.  So, was Lazarus raised back to life in a new body?  Or the same old body he died in? It was the latter, correct?  Why?  Because Lazarus did not need a new, glorious spiritual body just to live out his remaining years on earth, did he?   Similarly, Jesus did not yet need his new, glorious spiritual body just to remain on earth for 40 more days.  He didn't need that new, glorious body until he ascended into heaven and inherited the Kingdom of God. peace, mike

Mike

I think you may be right ,but then what is dead ?

is it not the end of our ability to be part of men s world ?

and what did Jesus do in the time after his resurrection ?

did he had any contact with anyone out side of the believers ?

did he ad works done in the world of men ?Not that I know of

Lazarus came back and took part ones more with the affairs of men ,NO ?yes

so what was the purpose of his resurrection ? was it not to confirm to his disciples that what he had said all along of what was written about him in scriptures ad to be fulfilled,

Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

and what came to be is;Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I still look at it again later,

Love in Christ

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2011,23:46)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2011,02:45) Mike, You wrote to Marty that: Quote Scripture doesn't record the transformation Jesus underwent as he ascended into heaven.  But he left the earth as flesh and blood, and we know those things cannot inherit God's Kingdom. I want to point out to you that scripture does not record angels tranforming either. Yes, Kerwin, But unlike in the case of Jesus, scripture doesn't record an angel ever being flesh in the first place, so that it would have to transform to be in heaven.

Mike,

Actually scripture does but you do not believe that it does.

[mikeboll64]

Only if you consider being touched or eating something to be activities that can only be performed by one with HUMAN FLESH, Kerwin.

I do not consider that to be the case.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Mike

second part;to understand what glory Jesus is talking about ;Ps 3:3 But you are a shield around me, O LORD?
you bestow glory on me and lift up my head.

Ps 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.

Ps 21:5 Through the victories you gave, his glory is great;
you have bestowed on him splendor and majesty.

Ps 26:8 I love the house where you live, O LORD,
the place where your glory dwells.

Ps 29:2 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name;
worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness.

2Pe 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness

Phil 1:11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

the glory, spoken in scriptures are either related to God or to Christ or to another,but it is always related to the truth spoken,either by any of them,true glory can only be obtain by speaking the truth,and righteousness has to go with it

so when Christ died all have seen it but only the believers knew what it meant ,so the disciples had follow the orders of Christ not to leave Jerusalem,because unless Christ came back he would not have been the son of God and so not receive glory to the truth of God s word and his ,in this way  the glory of both God and Christ was at stake,because it was God that would bring Christ back ,as stated in scriptures,

so what was important is that Christ was seen by the believers alive because this act would in deed place the Glory of God in Christ his son who obeyed him fully,and so received the glory of a son that he really was and so the word of God was proven true and be the truth,

Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

I do not see why Christ could not have been resurrected spiritual being,

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

because his work was done on earth the fact that is body was not found that ,that his the body he put back on,

we know that scriptures do not show any direct contact with Christ after is ascending to heaven as a man ,all encounters,like Paul was made in his heavenly glory,same Stephen,later Christ used angels as intermediate ,

so yes Christ used a man body ,is it the same body than he had when he died ,as a offering to God it had to be destroyed,
the purpose of that body was ended when he died ,

so Mike if you have any light on it i am listening,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24)

I do not see why Christ could not have been resurrected spiritual being,

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
That's the reason, Pierre.  Jesus would not have lied to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit when he really WAS.  Even if he was a spirit being who “manifested flesh”, his answer still would have been deceitful.

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24)

because his work was done on earth the fact that is body was not found that ,that his the body he put back on,

But his work wasn't yet done on earth.  That's why he remained 40 more days.  It could have been a preparation period before returning to God.  Moses was on the mountain 40 days.  In Noah's day, it rained for 40 days.  Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days.

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24)

so yes Christ used a man body ,is it the same body than he had when he died ,as a offering to God it had to be destroyed, the purpose of that body was ended when he died ,

But the purpose of that body had NOT yet ended, Pierre.  He needed that body for 40 more days on earth.  Nor does any scripture say the body had to be destroyed for the sacrifice to be complete.  Like I said, it was his LIFE that was sacrificed, yet he received his LIFE back, right?  Why not his body then?  And why did the body Jesus showed the disciples still have the marks from the crucifixion?

Pierre, I too believed like you, Irene, and the JW's believe for a long time.  But Luke 24:39 showed my belief to be flawed.  I have since adjusted my belief to be aligned with the words of the scriptures.

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,11:26)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24) I do not see why Christ could not have been resurrected spiritual being, Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” That's the reason, Pierre.  Jesus would not have lied to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit when he really WAS.  Even if he was a spirit being who “manifested flesh”, his answer still would have been deceitful. Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24) because his work was done on earth the fact that is body was not found that ,that his the body he put back on, But his work wasn't yet done on earth.  That's why he remained 40 more days.  It could have been a preparation period before returning to God.  Moses was on the mountain 40 days.  In Noah's day, it rained for 40 days.  Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days. Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2011,18:24) so yes Christ used a man body ,is it the same body than he had when he died ,as a offering to God it had to be destroyed, the purpose of that body was ended when he died , But the purpose of that body had NOT yet ended, Pierre.  He needed that body for 40 more days on earth.  Nor does any scripture say the body had to be destroyed for the sacrifice to be complete.  Like I said, it was his LIFE that was sacrificed, yet he received his LIFE back, right?  Why not his body then?  And why did the body Jesus showed the disciples still have the marks from the crucifixion? Pierre, I too believed like you, Irene, and the JW's believe for a long time.  But Luke 24:39 showed my belief to be flawed.  I have since adjusted my belief to be aligned with the words of the scriptures. peace and love, mike

Mike

I agree ,and this also changed my mind;

Lev 6;37 As the sin-offering, so also is the trespass-offering. There is one law of them; the priest who shall make atonement with it, his it shall be. 38 And as for the priest who offers a man’s whole-burnt-offering, the skin of the whole-burnt-offering which he offers, shall be his.

Lev 7:7 As the sin offering is, so is the trespass offering: there is one law for them: the priest that maketh atonement therewith shall have it.
Lev 7:8 And the priest that offereth any man's burnt offering, even

the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2011,03:44)

Only if you consider being touched or eating something to be activities that can only be performed by one with HUMAN FLESH, Kerwin. I do not consider that to be the case. peace, mike

Mike,

I do not consider them as things that can be done by spirits as why would Jesus mention them when faced with his students concern he was a spirit?

[kerwin]

Mike,

You wrote to Pierre,

Quote

Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” That's the reason, Pierre. Jesus would not have lied to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit when he really WAS. Even if he was a spirit being who “manifested flesh”, his answer still would have been deceitful.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You believe that Jesus was originally a spirit being, the son of God's spirit body. And that he then stopped from being a spirit being, the son of God's spirit body, and started to be a human being, the son of David, who lived, died, and was resurrected again to live once more for forty days. At that point he stopped being a human being and once more started to be a spirit being, a son of natural descent from God.

Am I correct about what you understand from scripture?

Edited to correct spelling and grammar.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 07 2011,20:12)

Mike I agree ,and this also changed my mind; the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered.

Good point Pierre,

In fact, the way I understand it, the whole sheep or goat or ram or bull was sacrificed to God, but only a small portion went up in smoke.  The rest was used for the feast that all Israel enjoyed.  So the sacrifice didn't have to be completely destroyed for it to be a sacrifice.

Anyway, at times like this I know you are a TRUE student of Christ and the scriptures.  It is a man who is after nothing but truth that will adjust a view he has held so strongly for so many years.  May God bless you!

Oh, and may He also bless Shimmer, who caused me to adjust my understanding in this matter.  

peace and love to you,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,11:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2011,03:44) Only if you consider being touched or eating something to be activities that can only be performed by one with HUMAN FLESH, Kerwin. I do not consider that to be the case. peace, mike Mike, I do not consider them as things that can be done by spirits as why would Jesus mention them when faced with his students concern he was a spirit?

Hi Kerwin,

I just figure that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light if he wants to, right? He had enough power to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, right? He holds much sway over natural things, a third of God's angels, and human beings, right?

I'm sure he could choke down a hotdog if he needed to………..without actually being flesh.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,11:36)

Mike, You wrote to Pierre, Quote Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” That's the reason, Pierre.  Jesus would not have lied to his disciples by saying he was NOT a spirit when he really WAS.  Even if he was a spirit being who “manifested flesh”, his answer still would have been deceitful. Let me make sure I understand you correctly.  You believe that Jesus was originally a spirit being, the son of God's spirit body.  And that he then stopped from being a spirit being, the son of God's spirit body, and started to be a human being, the son of David, who lived, died, and was resurrected again to live once more for forty days.  At that point he stopped being a human being and once more started to be a spirit being, a son of natural descent from God. Am I correct about what you understand from scripture? Edited to correct spelling and grammar.

You've understood it correctly, Kerwin.  Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God.

But let me say it my way:

Jesus became the firstborn of all creation when his God begot him eons ago.  He was a spirit being who shared the spirit nature of his God and Creator.  God then created all other things through this only begotten Son of His.

At some point, the decision was made for Jesus, who was existing with the spirit nature of God, to empty himself of this existence and become made as a human being.  He was rich, but became poor for us.

The way His God made him as a human was to impregnate a human being via His Holy Spirit.  Jesus then lived as a man, counseled wonderfully, and did many signs and wonders through the power of his God.  He was crucified as God's personal sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind once for all time.

Three days later, his God raised him back to life in the body he died in.  He stayed on earth for 40 days teaching and causing the disciples to have even more faith in the resurrection.

He then ascended to God's Kingdom, where flesh cannot dwell, and so was transformed back into the spirit being he is today.

peace,
mike

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

You've understood it correctly, Kerwin. Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God.

So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago?

If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being?

I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:49)

Mike, Quote You've understood it correctly, Kerwin.  Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago? If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being? I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven.

kerwin

Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”
Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:29)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:49) Mike, Quote You've understood it correctly, Kerwin.  Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago? If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being? I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven. kerwin Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Pierre,

Quote

Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”?

Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus?

Edited to change plural angel to singular.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:39)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:29) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:49) Mike, Quote You've understood it correctly, Kerwin.  Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago? If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being? I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven. kerwin Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Pierre, Quote Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”? Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus? Edited to change plural angel to singular.

kerwin

Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus?

scriptures say after king Saul that he will pick a man according to his heart and God picked David,because David heart was for God ,and in this way Jesus his the son of David because he also ad his heart totally for God ,

Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”?

what is John 1;1 tells you ? would the angel of God say something untrue ?and Col 1;13

can you be called son of God and then say it is not true ?
who fathered Christ ?

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:39) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:29) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:49) Mike, Quote You've understood it correctly, Kerwin.  Except that Jesus never stopped being a natural descendant of God. So Jesus had a 100% spirit body and a 100% human body when he walked this earth so long ago? If not then how was he a spirit being that was made into a human being? I assume the process was reverse as he was ascending into heaven. kerwin Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Pierre, Quote Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”? Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus? Edited to change plural angel to singular. kerwin Why did the angel call David the father of Jesus? scriptures say after king Saul that he will pick a man according to his heart and God picked David,because David heart was for God ,and in this way Jesus his the son of David because he also ad his heart totally for God , Why did the angel choose to state ” will be called the Son of the Most High” instead of ” will be the Son of the Most High”? what is John 1;1 tells you ? would the angel of God say something untrue ?and Col 1;13 can you be called son of God and then say it is not true ? who fathered Christ ? Pierre

Pierre,

Thank you for your answers.

You can call someone something they are not because they are like that something.  An example of this is to call John the Baptist Elijah(As his spirit was like Elijah's),  to call Peter Satan(as his was like Satan's the incident), or a to call a human being an angel[for acting benevolent).

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Jesus has no direct father of his body but is a decendent of David and that decent goes through Mary his mother.

God is the Father of his Spirit for he does as God does.

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