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1 Corinthians 8:5,6 “For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”
Paul says there are those who are “called” gods. He did not say they truly were “gods” – they are “gods” in name only. So how many Gods do Christians have, one or two? Paul answers – “one”. There is no way to conclude that the Father and Son constitute two Gods. But is Jesus included or distinguished from this one God?
If someone comes to this passage already believing that “God” and “Lord” have significantly different meanings and that God is only one person, then this verse could be viewed as supporting the belief that the one God cannot be the one Lord. One would see this text as really saying: “there is actually to us one God [who is only] the Father . . . and one Lord [who is only] Jesus”. The reference to Jesus as being “Lord” would be viewed as a contrast rather than a parallel. The supporting phrases saying that all things are from the Father and `for him' would be perceived as making a definite distinction from the statement about all things being “through” Jesus. But is that Paul's intent here, does he believe that “God” and “Lord” are contrasting titles or does he use them interchangeably? Likewise, does Paul intend to imply a distinction between the phrases “for him” and “through him” or does he use these interchangeably?
In the previous chapter, in verse 17, Paul uses the title “Lord” and “God” in the same sentence. But as can be seen by examining the Kingdom Interlinear the New World Translation removes the title “Lord” and inserts the word “Jehovah”. So compare this in the Revised Standard Version: 1 Corinthians 7 “17 Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.” – RSV
Do you get the feeling that Paul is making a distinction between the two titles? According to the NWT both titles here refer to “Jehovah”, he is “Lord” and “God”. This is not to imply that Paul never makes a distinction, but if Paul does use the titles in parallel, then can this not also be the case in 1 Corinthians 8:6? Consider how Paul uses these titles in other letters:
Romans 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. . . . 10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” ” – RSV
Again, according to the NWT the titles “Lord” and “God” refer to “Jehovah” in this passage. Paul is using them to refer to the same one.
Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. 13 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord [“Jehovah” – NWT] will be saved.” ” – RSV
Who is the Lord that a believer calls upon in verse 9? Who is the “Lord of all” that the believer calls upon in verse 12? So who is the “Lord” that the believer calls upon in verse 13? Would you say that in all these passages Paul consistently applies the title “Lord” to Jesus to distinguish him from “God” as supposed in 1 Corinthians 8:6?
Outside of Paul's writings what do we find? Matthew 11:25 says that the Father is Lord of all. Acts 17:24 says the same thing. But Acts 10:36 says Jesus is Lord of all.
So what did Paul mean when he said that “actually to us . . . there is one Lord, Jesus Christ”? Did he mean to distinguish this one Lord from the one God? Can you say that in the passages we examined Paul consistently did distinguish between the one Lord and the one God?
What about the statements in 1 Corinthians 8:6 about things being “for” someone or “through” someone? Do these not prove that there is a definite and intentional distinction being made between “God” and “Lord”?
In 1 Corinthians Paul said things were “for” the Father but “through” Jesus. Above, in Colossians 1:16, we saw where Paul said this about Jesus: “All [other] things have been created through him and for him”. Yet Hebrews 2:10 said about God: “for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are”. Combining all three we have that all things are “through” the Father (Hebrews 2:10) and all things are “through” the Son (Colossians 1:16; 1 Corinthians 8:6); all things are “for” the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 2:10) and all things are “for” the Son (Colossians 1:16).
So if the intent of Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 was to show a clear distinction between the Father and Son as regards whether creation is “through him” or “for him”, as if these distinctions were truly significant differences, then Paul is inconsistent between what he said in Colossians and 1 Corinthians. It is also inconsistent with Hebrews 2:10. But there is no inconsistency between Paul's statements nor with Hebrews 2:10 if we take the view that Paul was not trying to make distinctions between differences but rather parallels between similarities. The result would be that while there are many “gods” and many “lords” in name only, for Christians there is only one God, only one Lord. All things are from this one God, through him and for him. All things are from this one Lord, through him and for him. This one God is the Father, this one God is Jesus. This one Lord is also the Father, this one Lord is also Jesus. There are some distinctions in roles between these two persons, one is the Decision-Maker, the other is the Mediator, but they are one nature, one `spiritual flesh'. They are both truly God, not just God in name only.
There is another person that we have not discussed that is included in the composite unity of the one true God. . . .Hi KAT,
Jesus is the Son of God.
Believe him not these effusive word merchants.Mystery Babylon just confuses folk.
Remember Jesus came to reveal more about his Father God , the God of the Jews, not to proclaim himself as part of a strange new trinity god. That came from lying men
The Person of the Holy Spirit
Before Jesus' death he said to his disciples that he was going away and . .
John 14:16 “and I will request the Father and he will give you another (“allos”) helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, . . .”
If someone was helping you and then said he had to go but he would send another helper to be with you. Would you be surprised if no one returned. When Jesus left and promised to send “another” helper, that meant another somebody like himself, a person. The Greek word for “another” in this verse is “allos” and means another of the same kind. In Greek there is a word, “heteros”, that means another of a different kind, . If Jesus had meant that he would send another helper that was not a person like him, but an impersonal force, we would see the Greek word “heteros” here. You can compare these two Greek words for yourself in . . .
Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ's undeserved kindness over to another (“heteros” – of a different kind) sort of good news. 7 But it is not another (“allos” – of a similar kind); only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ.”
Paul is saying that these Galatians had gone over to another different good news that was NOT another good news of a similar kind. So in John 14:16 when Jesus said that he would send “another” helper, this implies that the helper that Jesus would send, the Holy Spirit, would be another (“allos”) helper, a person like Jesus.
Consider what Jesus said about himself . . .
John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.”
When Jesus said that he did not speak of his “own impulse”, did you conclude that therefore Jesus was not a person and incapable of thinking on his own, as if he were some kind of mindless puppet? Or when Jesus said that the Father had told him what to say did you immediately think that maybe Jesus was some kind of supernatural parrot, only able to repeat what was heard? But Jesus said the very same thing soon after this . . .
John 16:13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to you.”
Do you see that what Jesus said about himself is the same as what he said about the “spirit of the truth”? Does this not imply that the Spirit has the capacity to speak on “his own” but Jesus was informing his disciples beforehand that the Spirit would not be acting on his own just as Jesus would not? When Jesus said that he could not do anything on his own (John 5:19) that did not imply that he was a non-person. Likewise when Jesus said the same thing for the Spirit that does not imply that the Spirit is an impersonal force.
If the “spirit of the truth” is only a mindless active force under God's control, like some supernatural puppet, and Jesus' disciples knew this, why would Jesus bother to stress to them that the “spirit” would not be speaking on “his own impulse”? Would they not already know this? What was the point? If someone that was about to die came to you and said in seriousness `This is important, when you see a puppet, you must remember that it is not really talking on his own.' Would you not wonder why this point was being made at such a time as this? In fact, would it not almost be humorous for someone say this?
When Jesus said that the Spirit speaks what he hears. Does that not imply that the Spirit is capable of hearing something that comes from a separate person? If the Spirit were only a force that transmits information from God, why did Jesus not simply say this? Why did he say that the Spirit hears and speaks as if it were a person? Why, at such an important time as this, does Jesus suddenly communicate in metaphors?
If the Spirit is part of the Father, would it not always have everything the Father has? Then why does the Spirit need to receive things from Jesus? Why would Jesus bother to explain that once he receives everything from the Father then the Spirit can take from what Jesus has? Does this not imply that the Spirit, like Jesus, is a submissive person that receives everything from the Father (or the Son once he has everything from the Father)?
Romans 8:22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. . . . 26 In like manner the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness; for the [problem of] what we should pray for as we need to we do not know, but the spirit itself pleads for us with groaning unuttered. 27 Yet he who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in accord with God for holy ones. . . . 34 Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”
Who is it that is groaning here? In verse 22 it is “all creation”. In verse 23 it is “we” Christians. In verse 34 it is Jesus. But in verse 26 it says that “in like manner” the spirit pleads before God. How can the spirit plead “in like manner”, like Christians, like Jesus, if it is only an impersonal active force? Also, if the “spirit” is really a part of the Father, why is the spirit pleading before the Father? Does this not show that the spirit is somehow separate from the Father?
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.” For the spirit to “will” how the gifts are to be distributed to individuals, that means the spirit has an attribute that only a person has. Revelation 22 “17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free.”
In John's vision he sees a bride. This bride represents something other than a single person but in this vision it is a person.
In Revelation 16:7 the altar in heaven speaks. So although an altar is not a person, it is a thing that can be seen in a vision and it is given some personal attributes. But what about the spirit that speaks just like the bride? What did John see in the vision? If it is not a person then what did he see? Does this not imply that he saw something, some object, that could be made to appear to speak? If John was really here seeing the Father, why did he not say so? If he did not see the Father, then could it not be said that in the Revelation vision John saw the Father, the Son and the Spirit as three separate objectsIn summary, the Spirit is a person with personal attributes that is separate from the Father who can plead, just like Jesus can, before the Father. He can “will” that certain gifts be distributed. He receives everything from the Father and then speaks what he hears. Like Jesus, he is eternally submissive to the Father and is therefore ONE with the Father and NOT a separate God. Thus while there are three persons only one of them is the Decision-maker. So together, in unity, they are one God with one will, one glory. This is the Tri-unity
Hi KAT,
Jesus told us the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
The Spirit is as the finger of God[lk11/mt12]No committee god but perhaps you prefer the ideas of vain theologians?
Quote Many Catholics wouldn't abide or understand your comments. I, having been sincerely duped like yourself, understand what you believe. I was one of the most anti-Catholics you'd ever want to find. I actually was a big supporter of Chick publications. I even spent an afternoon with Jack Chick. David Daniels is still a good friend. So I understand that you think you are fighting for the kingdom of God with your comments. I once thought the same thing.
But please let me tell you. We were all wrong. We had our facts completely messed up.
To be immersed in history is to cease to be Protestant.
wolf, it seems your heart was softened for a moment………trying to win me over, don't blame you, have been called a warrior of Christ many times in life, you would do well to have me on your side…….what does Christ say about that…………. Mar 8:33 “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not thinking God's thoughts but human thoughts!”
not anti catholic in any way……..more knowing what it will be like with the anti christ ……….believe me, you are not the only ones with idols, traditions and such, you have many bed fellows.
this chick publication and friend of yours i do not know of or heard of, nor have any desire to, empty words..fyi.
immersed in history……if you only knew.
kol tuv
Nick did you even study what i posted?
Hi KAT,
We are offered the teachings of theologians every day here but none matches the word of God.Go to the source
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 15 2009,12:52) Quote
To be immersed in history is to cease to be Protestant.wolf, it seems your heart was softened for a moment………trying to win me over, don't blame you, have been called a warrior of Christ many times in life, you would do well to have me on your side…….what does Christ say about that…………. Mar 8:33 “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not thinking God's thoughts but human thoughts!”
not anti catholic in any way……..more knowing what it will be like with the anti christ ……….believe me, you are not the only ones with idols, traditions and such, you have many bed fellows.
this chick publication and friend of yours i do not know of or heard of, nor have any desire to, empty words..fyi.
immersed in history……if you only knew.
kol tuv
My heart was soft before. You must have mistaken passion for anger. I believe what I do passionately and I defend it passionately. If only you could have this peace inside of you.Wolf? Well, I know you are just calling me that because you don't know me. That's the problem with the computer generation. People treat others differently than if they spoke face to face.
If loving the Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart makes me a wolf, then aaauuuuoooooo!!!!!!!
But seriously, I really do love the Lord and His Church.
I want to please Him, so I want to refrain from reciprocating on the concept of “bed fellows.” But I do want to say that our only enemy is sin and satan.
I wonder how much history you really know. I wonder where you read your history.
CA…………If you truly want to please (HIM) then dump the TRINITARIAN Garbage, and Come out of those false teaching, would be a good start. IMO
gene
Dont think its garbage Gene! Who is Jesus to you? You know He is who we will spend eternity with?
Quote (katjo @ Sep. 16 2009,01:07) Dont think its garbage Gene! Who is Jesus to you? You know He is who we will spend eternity with?
If Gene had been present at the crucifixion of Jesus he might have grabbed the hammer from the soldier so he could drive in the first nail.Gene gives the impression that he despises Jesus.
thinker
Quote (katjo @ Sep. 16 2009,01:07) Dont think its garbage Gene! Who is Jesus to you? You know He is who we will spend eternity with?
Hi KAT,
Yes, he is who he said he is, the Son of God.
You can fellowship with the Father and His Son in the Spirit of God.But you do have to abide in the scriptures and recognise the lies and false teachings of men for what they are.[2Jn9] Thus you serve your appointed Lord and Master.
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
Do you except Jesus as your Saviour?
Hi KAT,
It is not a matter of what we do.
Our Saviour God has offered rescue to all through His Son, the Saviour Jesus.
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins and your will receive the gift of the Spirit.Most try to find other ways but only thieves and robbers enter some other way.
Hi KAT,
The closest thing to this in scripture is when Jesus spoke of those who called to him LORD LORD.
He did not know them.Best to obey scripture rather than the traditions of men.
Quote
My heart was soft before. You must have mistaken passion for anger. I believe what I do passionately and I defend it passionately. If only you could have this peace inside of you.your statement reads like an oxymoron (you know sharp and foolish) i.e. anger/peace
Quote
Wolf? Well, I know you are just calling me that because you don't know me. That's the problem with the computer generation. People treat others differently than if they spoke face to face.let's give it a go shall we and see, and just a footnote on this one…….you are well to hand out names to others, no?
Quote
If loving the Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart makes me a wolf, then aaauuuuoooooo!!!!!!!But seriously, I really do love the Lord and His Church.
truly, if you did you would stop at I love the Lord.
Quote
I want to please Him, so I want to refrain from reciprocating on the concept of “bed fellows.” But I do want to say that our only enemy is sin and satan.how could you possibly be pleasing him, when he is last on your list, how many do you have to go through before your prayers are heard, how many do you have to go through before you are forgiven, how many do you have to go through before you understand. the list you have is so long, Christ is the last one you go to.
if you want to please him just go to him, he is there waiting, the messengers are waiting to sing for you, for such a passion to please, your church blinds you.
one enemy the deciever.
Mat 10:28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
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