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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2011,21:59) Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2011,23:01) All the host of heaven is created in the image of God.
You may be right, but what scripture tells you this?I only know of mankind and Jesus who are made in the image of God. I assume angels are too, but there is no scripture to that effect.
Nor is there any mention of angels playing a part in the creation of anything.
So again, since mankind wasn't yet there, and we know all things came to be through Jesus, and we know that he is also made in the image of his God……………who else could the “OUR IMAGE” refer to?
mike
Mikein scriptures we only talk about male figures the son is the male figure
all other angels figures are called the women of God ,as in revelation and so the son of man was a production of that women (Gods heavenly organization)
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2011,09:59) Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2011,23:01) All the host of heaven is created in the image of God.
You may be right, but what scripture tells you this?I only know of mankind and Jesus who are made in the image of God. I assume angels are too, but there is no scripture to that effect.
Nor is there any mention of angels playing a part in the creation of anything.
So again, since mankind wasn't yet there, and we know all things came to be through Jesus, and we know that he is also made in the image of his God……………who else could the “OUR IMAGE” refer to?
mike
It depends on what you believe name means. I am of the opinion it means man was initialy created like God in true righteousness and holiness as God is Spirit. Jesus is also like God in true righteousness and holiness.That would stick with this passage from scripture as well as others.
Quote Ephesians 3(NIV) 14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Angels are part of elohim and if it is not The elohim then it could very well be speaking of angels being involves. In any case God is the brain and the power while the angels are merely his instruments who choose to do his will therefore their part is of little importance.
I was not voicing my understading of whether Jesus was there or not but merely that whatever the case the Spirit of God was there and doing as God commanded.
Pierre,
you said:Quote in scriptures we only talk about male figures the son is the male figure all other angels figures are called the women of God ,as in revelation and so the son of man was a production of that women (Gods heavenly organization)
Where are angel figures called the 'women of God?'
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,23:30) Pierre,
you said:Quote in scriptures we only talk about male figures the son is the male figure all other angels figures are called the women of God ,as in revelation and so the son of man was a production of that women (Gods heavenly organization)
Where are angel figures called the 'women of God?'
Kathi
KathiI think I have made a error in my statement and retract this ,
please all who have seen this forgive me ,my human mistake,
thanks for your question.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,23:08) Angels are part of elohim and if it is not The elohim then it could very well be speaking of angels being involves. In any case God is the brain and the power while the angels are merely his instruments who choose to do his will therefore their part is of little importance.
Hi Kerwin,I really don't know where you're getting this understanding. God is one single being. He has created angels as other single beings. Sometimes an angel of God is referred to as “God”, for that was the way of the Hebrews, but you are making God's angels sound like they are a part of His being, and He is the brain of this “multi-person” being.
Maybe I read it wrong?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2011,07:41) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,23:08) Angels are part of elohim and if it is not The elohim then it could very well be speaking of angels being involves. In any case God is the brain and the power while the angels are merely his instruments who choose to do his will therefore their part is of little importance.
Hi Kerwin,I really don't know where you're getting this understanding. God is one single being. He has created angels as other single beings. Sometimes an angel of God is referred to as “God”, for that was the way of the Hebrews, but you are making God's angels sound like they are a part of His being, and He is the brain of this “multi-person” being.
Maybe I read it wrong?
mike
Mike,The word elohim does not mean “the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe “. It is speaking instead of the “family of El”. God being the chief member of the family is called “the Elohim” or “the theos” as you have pointed out to others.
So angels being members of God's family are called elohim.
For example, Angels are called elohim in the book of Psalms within the passage about mankind being created a little lower than the angels. It is translated to the Greek word for messengers in the book of Hebrews.
Perhaps viewing it from that point will aid your understanding.
Conclusion: Angels are not part of God but rather they are members of his family.
Hi Kerwin,
We are “close” on our understanding of “elohim”. The “im” at the end only makes it plural, and means “elohim” can either refer to many gods, or to one majestic god. The same “plural of majesty” is used on the words “SongS of Songs”, “KingS of kings”, “LordS of Lords” and “SlaveS of slaves” in scripture. And all of those plural first words in the phrase refer to only ONE person or thing.
Deuteronomy 10:17 literally says, “Jehovah GodS is the GodS of gods”.
Three plural “elohim”, but only one of them refers to more than one god. The other two refer to ONE majestic god.You might have already known this stuff, but I posted it “just in case”.
But the base words “el” and “eloah” are thought to have meant “fear” – as in “one whom we should fear”, or “mighty”. The scholars can't quite pinpoint the exact ancient meaning of the word. But the general consensus is that the word was used to refer to one who is “mighty” and “feared/revered”.
The word in its plural majestic form was not just used of God and His angels. It was used also of kings of the earth, the human Judges that God appointed over Israel, and men to whom the word of God came. The same word was also used BY prophets of God to refer to the Philistine god Dagon and the Ammonite god Mo'lech.
Surely these gods are not in “God's Family”, right? So what we need to understand is that the word was used to refer to any number of “mighty ones who should be revered”, whether they were righteous in God's eyes or not. (In the Hebrew NT, “elohim” is used to refer to Satan.)
Can you imagine us calling “Judge Judy” by the title “God Judy” today? Could you imagine us calling President Obama by the name “God Obama”? Of course not, but that would have been acceptable in Biblical times, for the word “elohim” did not refer only to God and His righteous supernatural beings.
peace,
mikeMike Boll,
An exert or experts expressed the idea Elohim means God's family.
I have read your post but since I am feeling tired tonight I plan on answering it later, God willing.
Quote (kerwin @ April 28 2011,02:49) An exert or experts expressed the idea Elohim means God's family.
Are you ready to welcome Satan, Ba'al, Mo'lech and Dagon into “God's family”?Rest up and be well Kerwin.
May the peace of God come to rest upon you,
mikeMike Boll,
It could very well mean “to be strong” or “to be in front” depending on what “El” is derived from but that argument seems to ignores the general Semitic etymologies and thus is a weak argument according this except from Webster’s online dictionary.
Quote Etymology The most likely derivation comes from the word Elohim ('lhm) found in the Ugarit archives, meaning the family or pantheon associated with the Canaanite father God El.
Quote * Joel Hoffman derives the word from the common Canaanite word elim, with the mater lectionis heh inserted to distinguish the Israelite God from other gods. He argues that elohim thus patterns with Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah.[1] (See also Yahweh.) * Karel van der Toorn repeats the common claim that elohim is the plural of eloah. D. Pardee notes the lack of any clear etymology for eloah[2], but the word itself is well-attested (57 times in the OT).
* Some trace its origin in el or ul which may mean (“to be strong”) or possibly (“to be in front”), from which also are derived ayil (“ram”, the one in front of the flock) and elah (the prominent “terebinth”); Elohim would then be an expanded plural form of El. (However, Semitic etymologies are generally based on triconsonantal roots, which this proposal completely ignores.)
* Others relate the word (and Eloah, “a god”) to alah (“to terrify”) or alih (“to be perplexed, afraid; to seek refuge because of fear”). Eloah and Elohim, therefore, would be “He who is the object of fear or reverence,” or “He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge”.
I am prone to think it is a word that is shared both by the Canaanites and the Hebrews either because it was derived from a common source or because Abraham and his decedents spoke the common language of the people around them and Hebrew decended from that common language.
Another way of looking at Deuteronomy 10:17 is:
Jehovah (First name) Elohim (Family name) is The Elohim of Elohim.
An alternative English rendition could be Jehovah of the Pantheon is The Pantheon of the Pantheon.
In short Jehovah is the one true God and all those who worship him are gods
Psalms 82 states the same thing in verse 1.
Quote 1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:He called those that received the law members of his Pantheon is the Law of Mosses.
Quote Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,
That is why God later stated:
Quote Psalms 82 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
And to those of them who rebelled he states:
Quote Psalms 82 7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”There are also pretenders to being members of the Pantheon of Jehovah, but context should make it clear that their pretensions are false as in this passage. Your point demonstrates you determined who are the real and who are those hold pretentions. For example Dagon and Mo'lech are pretenders while Satan may be considered a fallen god, similar to Psalms 82:5-7, or a pretender depending on the situation.
Quote Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to false gods.
Note: All scriptures from c. 2011 NIV.
My Webster's dictionary source is here.
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2011,04:42)
I am prone to think it is a word that is shared both by the Canaanites and the Hebrews either because it was derived from a common source or because Abraham and his decedents spoke the common language of the people around them and Hebrew decended from that common language.
I agree with this as well as with your sources.Quote In short Jehovah is the one true God and all those who worship him are gods Psalms 82 states the same thing in verse 1.
Now you've lost me, for no scripture, including Psalm 82, says that those who worship God are part of the “family of el”.“El” refers to “one we should revere”. An “el” is a “mighty one”, a “ruler”. Jehovah is one, as well as many others. It just so happens that among the mighty ones, Jehovah is THE Almighty One, above all others.
Kerwin, you worship God, but that doesn't make you a god, part of His “family”, or one whom I should revere.
mike
Mike,
Quote 1 Peter 2(NIV, c.2011) 4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”8 and,
“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
I believe the people of God are called gods for the same reason Peter writes those he addressed are a holy nation, a chosen people, a royal priesthood.
Mike and Kerwin! I read some of your post's. IMO One day we will be Gods whether it is meant literal I don't know, time will tell, I always say.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Peace Irene
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