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Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,14:11) Are you condemning Mike's reasoning strategy because you do not believe it is the proper one to use. If you wish to discuss the how to correctly interpret one particular scripture then the Scriptural/Biblical forum is the forum specially made that purpose. Even then other scripture are used to properly understand a particular scripture.
Of course any efforts at all are in vain if God is not with you. So always remeber to ask, seek, and knock for his guidance.
No,
Im condemning his strategy because it will bring us in to a never ending cycle of debate that will not have a solution to the current problem.Again, if i misinterpret one scripture what makes Mike think that bringing up another one will help?
Its not about what I wish to dicuss kerwin, maybe you shouldnt jump into things that dont really concern you.
Mike called me out to the “hot seat” thread, therefore im following his thread, and what he wanted to discuss “one scripture” at a time.God does what he wills.
Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,14:14) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 08 2011,11:11) Quote (kerwin @ April 07 2011,15:19) Dennison, It is easy to prove it is not as you understand as Jesus petitions God that his disciples be one even as he and the Father are. In addition scripture speaks of the Unity.
Since one can mean united it still is literal.
That has nothing to do with what I stated kerwin.Thankyou.
Scripture declares God and all who bear his name are united.It seems simple enough to understand but to many seem not to.
Scriptures declares that God will be all in all.Seriously, you cant state what you believe all you want, but proving it is a different issue.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2011,14:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2011,12:19) Is this kind of slander allowed for a moderator or any one for that matter?
I keep telling you that it's only “slander” if I'm speaking dishonestly about you. I haven't.For example, when Jack suggests I deceptively didn't quote all of the context when I clearly did, that is slander.
See the difference?
mike
Yeah and I asked God to forgive me for it too. You don't see me continuing with it do you? You sound like the little child which says, “If so and so can do it then it's okay if I do it.”I did not intend to slander but realized that I had. So I do not post any accusation now that I can't substantiate. In fact, I don't even care to.
If you should misrepresent me or lie against me so be it.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,11:52) Yeah and I asked God to forgive me for it too. You don't see me continuing with it do you?
No, sir………….I don't see you doing it anymore. Thank you for that and for your words. As someone once said to me, I am instructed by your words.mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 07 2011,23:39) i asked you what is it saying, you ignored that too!
Hi D,But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
en
1) in, by, with etc.The word could mean “with”, as in “one in purpose”. Like if I say, “Let's go kick Dennison's butt! Are you guys WITH me?”
But here's one that is very telling:
Matt 22:16 NET
They sent to him their disciples along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful, and teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You do not court anyone’s favor because you show no partiality.That “in accordance with” is the same single word “en” in the Greek. I don't think Jesus was physically inside “the truth”, do you? And I also don't think Jesus was physically inside his Father who was in heaven while he was on the earth.
I understand it to be saying that the Father was “with” Jesus in purpose and he was “with” the Father in purpose. They were “one” in purpose and goals.
D, you must at least consider some of the other scriptures like this one:
1 John 2:24
As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.These are also the Greek word “en”. And I'm quite sure John is not saying the ones he's addressing are God Almighty.
I started this thead to give you the opportunity to prove Jesus IS the Father, like you've claimed before. And so far, all you've done is take John 17 literally, and have ignored any opposing scripture we've brought up. In fact, you've tried to do this debate without anyone using any scripture at all to refute your understanding. We can't do that.
It's like you've claimed that God created in 5 days instead of 6, but you'll only consider Gen 1:1, and no other scripture at all.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 08 2011,23:14) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,14:11) Are you condemning Mike's reasoning strategy because you do not believe it is the proper one to use. If you wish to discuss the how to correctly interpret one particular scripture then the Scriptural/Biblical forum is the forum specially made that purpose. Even then other scripture are used to properly understand a particular scripture.
Of course any efforts at all are in vain if God is not with you. So always remeber to ask, seek, and knock for his guidance.
No,
Im condemning his strategy because it will bring us in to a never ending cycle of debate that will not have a solution to the current problem.Again, if i misinterpret one scripture what makes Mike think that bringing up another one will help?
Its not about what I wish to dicuss kerwin, maybe you shouldnt jump into things that dont really concern you.
Mike called me out to the “hot seat” thread, therefore im following his thread, and what he wanted to discuss “one scripture” at a time.God does what he wills.
Dennison,So according to you discord between brothers does not concern me. I seemed to have heard something like that in scripture. Though the man it was spoken to was given more authority by God than I have been.
All I know is that it is wise for us all to continually test our lives and our doctrines less we fall into the pits the Devil sets for each of us.
If you wish to debate Mike on the correct interpretation of one scripture without others involved then do so in the debate area. I plan on not going into that forum or unless I also wish to debate someone one an issue.
Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,10:18) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 08 2011,23:14) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,14:11) Are you condemning Mike's reasoning strategy because you do not believe it is the proper one to use. If you wish to discuss the how to correctly interpret one particular scripture then the Scriptural/Biblical forum is the forum specially made that purpose. Even then other scripture are used to properly understand a particular scripture.
Of course any efforts at all are in vain if God is not with you. So always remeber to ask, seek, and knock for his guidance.
No,
Im condemning his strategy because it will bring us in to a never ending cycle of debate that will not have a solution to the current problem.Again, if i misinterpret one scripture what makes Mike think that bringing up another one will help?
Its not about what I wish to dicuss kerwin, maybe you shouldnt jump into things that dont really concern you.
Mike called me out to the “hot seat” thread, therefore im following his thread, and what he wanted to discuss “one scripture” at a time.God does what he wills.
Dennison,So according to you discord between brothers does not concern me. I seemed to have heard something like that in scripture. Though the man it was spoken to was given more authority by God than I have been.
All I know is that it is wise for us all to continually test our lives and our doctrines less we fall into the pits the Devil sets for each of us.
If you wish to debate Mike on the correct interpretation of one scripture without others involved then do so in the debate area. I plan on not going into that forum or unless I also wish to debate someone one an issue.
Kerwin,look dude at times when im heated i can be a bit rude, so my bad man.
I agree that we must examine ourselves, as I do often.
But, the thread topic is directed towards me, and me proving my view and what not.
so its not that it has nothing to do with you, I just cant handle to many people at me at one time, espeacilly when its off topic.
And also i believe that my problem with mike doesnt involve you. its obvious i have a fued, and a problem with him becaues the way he is reacting and what not.
so i dont want to include you with my rants, and his rants which are about our absurd tactics.
its 3am here, i have no idea if im making sense, but again like i said im sorry, didnt mean to lash out at you. Just understand that my disagreements with his strategies are a bit deeper than just this thread.
Dennison,
I have given you my understanding of what Jesus meant when he stated “I and the Father” are one. It actually literally states that God is united with all who bear his name in the following passage.
Ephesians 4:
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.But your counterpoint is also sound and valid since that is the goal of Christians and some have not reached it as yet.
Ephesians 4
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Here is another scripture that speaks of the same unity.
Ephesians 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,Jesus is our brother while God is our Father. They are not the same individual.
Note: All scriptures from NIV, c.2011
Dennison,
I forgive you for any wrongdoing your have done me. I pray that God cleanses you of that which drives you to do any wrongdoing.
At for the situation with Mike, I think you both should take a calm down period and strive not to stir each other up with accusations.
Successful communications are hard enough without the evil desires that are common to all human beings. It appears that when we grow angry Satan sees it as an opportune time to tempt us.
I think you should get Mike to walk you through his interpretation each scripture he uses and you disagree with his understanding of. After all Math teachers often demand you show the work when doing an arithmetic problem. You should of course do the same to him. The debate forum is a good place to do it without interference because of rules.
Both you should strive to fully listen to the other. Think through your post before responding. Be slow to anger.
You should also be cautious about accusing the other of intentional wrongdoing.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2011,08:57) Hi D, But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
en
1) in, by, with etc.The word could mean “with”, as in “one in purpose”. Like if I say, “Let's go kick Dennison's butt! Are you guys WITH me?”
But here's one that is very telling:
Matt 22:16 NET
They sent to him their disciples along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful, and teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You do not court anyone’s favor because you show no partiality.That “in accordance with” is the same single word “en” in the Greek. I don't think Jesus was physically inside “the truth”, do you? And I also don't think Jesus was physically inside his Father who was in heaven while he was on the earth.
I understand it to be saying that the Father was “with” Jesus in purpose and he was “with” the Father in purpose. They were “one” in purpose and goals.
D, you must at least consider some of the other scriptures like this one:
1 John 2:24
As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.These are also the Greek word “en”. And I'm quite sure John is not saying the ones he's addressing are God Almighty.
I started this thead to give you the opportunity to prove Jesus IS the Father, like you've claimed before. And so far, all you've done is take John 17 literally, and have ignored any opposing scripture we've brought up. In fact, you've tried to do this debate without anyone using any scripture at all to refute your understanding. We can't do that.
It's like you've claimed that God created in 5 days instead of 6, but you'll only consider Gen 1:1, and no other scripture at all.
mike
Mike,
the emphasizes is the way Jesus said it and even rearrange the sentence to present the very same case again.First he says that the FAther is IN him, and than repeats the very same phrase but backwards. That he is also IN the Father.
this idea, is also valid because He also told philip that Seeing him is SEEING the father, so the two scriptures support eachother.
Also, the Jesus cliams he is the “way, truth, and the life”
So Yes he is IN the truth, because he IS the Truth.Thats not what i have been doing mike.
We are using the same scriptures to support our “truths” so obvisouly its not the scripture its our interpretation.So i rather focus on what is the scripture actually saying, and than MOVE ON.
Once we have that habit, than we can get to the crux of the matters on hand.So lets go back to John 10.
Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,14:32) Dennison, I have given you my understanding of what Jesus meant when he stated “I and the Father” are one. It actually literally states that God is united with all who bear his name in the following passage.
Ephesians 4:
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.But your counterpoint is also sound and valid since that is the goal of Christians and some have not reached it as yet.
Ephesians 4
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Here is another scripture that speaks of the same unity.
Ephesians 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,Jesus is our brother while God is our Father. They are not the same individual.
Note: All scriptures from NIV, c.2011
God is to be our everything.In other Words Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
You and I were just adopted.
He is to be preeminent in all things,
you stating that we are brothers with Christ, is like saying that we are the same, when in fact we are not.This Jesus, created you.
Therefore now you must accept that he is your creator.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 18 2011,14:58) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,14:32) Dennison, I have given you my understanding of what Jesus meant when he stated “I and the Father” are one. It actually literally states that God is united with all who bear his name in the following passage.
Ephesians 4:
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.But your counterpoint is also sound and valid since that is the goal of Christians and some have not reached it as yet.
Ephesians 4
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Here is another scripture that speaks of the same unity.
Ephesians 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,Jesus is our brother while God is our Father. They are not the same individual.
Note: All scriptures from NIV, c.2011
God is to be our everything.In other Words Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
You and I were just adopted.
He is to be preeminent in all things,
you stating that we are brothers with Christ, is like saying that we are the same, when in fact we are not.This Jesus, created you.
Therefore now you must accept that he is your creator.
SFso each time your boss gives you a task this means that he gives you his position,?
Pierre
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 17 2011,14:56) So lets go back to John 10.
Hi D,I read your understanding of 10. My understanding is that Jesus and the Father are one in purpose and will because, as Jesus himself says, “I always do everything that pleases my Father”.
So it is the will of only ONE that is done, the Father's. And the other one, Jesus, aligns his will with the Father's.
I showed you the Peter Frampton video of the song “I'm in You”. You surely didn't think Peter was saying his girlfriend was literally inside him and he was literally inside her, did you? You surely didn't think that Peter and his girlfriend were the same being, did you?
It is a figure of speech, as John 17 explains.
So what do you want to do here? YOU think it means one thing, and I think it means something completely different.
Are we ready to bring in Phillip and John 17 and our other supporting scriptures yet?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ April 17 2011,19:16) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 18 2011,14:58) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,14:32) Dennison, I have given you my understanding of what Jesus meant when he stated “I and the Father” are one. It actually literally states that God is united with all who bear his name in the following passage.
Ephesians 4:
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.But your counterpoint is also sound and valid since that is the goal of Christians and some have not reached it as yet.
Ephesians 4
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Here is another scripture that speaks of the same unity.
Ephesians 3
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,Jesus is our brother while God is our Father. They are not the same individual.
Note: All scriptures from NIV, c.2011
God is to be our everything.In other Words Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
You and I were just adopted.
He is to be preeminent in all things,
you stating that we are brothers with Christ, is like saying that we are the same, when in fact we are not.This Jesus, created you.
Therefore now you must accept that he is your creator.
SFso each time your boss gives you a task this means that he gives you his position,?
Pierre
Good logical point, Pierre.Also, the prayer in Acts 4 makes it pretty clear which ONE created all. And this prayer was made TO God, and THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ.
Jesus is never said to be our Creator at any time. But he is listed as a product OF that creation by God at least twice, and as someone OTHER THAN our one Creator in that prayer in Acts 4.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2011,06:16) SF so each time your boss gives you a task this means that he gives you his position,?
Pierre
Of course not, but if I am the Manager than I do the task of a Manager.If your a creator than you create.
So since they are one and the Same, and that Jesus Christ is the creator.
Pierre Who created you? God or Jesus?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,07:47) So what do you want to do here? YOU think it means one thing, and I think it means something completely different.
Lets continue with the same context. Im not ready to include Philips or John 17 yet.lets work backwards now.
There is a reason why Jesus said this to the Jews.He posess a question on 36 and answers it on 37.
Jesus makes it very clear on 37 that he does the works of the father which would support the scripture u posted as well that states “He does everything that pleases the father”Yet again, 38 couldnt mean what you think it means, so it must be something literal.
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
36 says that one person set this other person apart as a POSSESSION of that first person.
37 says the second person does the works OF the first person mentioned.
So how can you take 38 literally, when 36 and 37 clearly distinguish TWO separate persons?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,08:52) 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 36 says that one person set this other person apart as a POSSESSION of that first person.
37 says the second person does the works OF the first person mentioned.
So how can you take 38 literally, when 36 and 37 clearly distinguish TWO separate persons?
mike
36: Jesus is implying that he was Sanctified and Sent into in the world.
37. Explains as you said:
38: must be taken literal because Its the conclusive thought to summarize why Jesus stated that God and Jesus are one.lets go further.
I take it literally because 36 is implying that the Jews are not believing what Scripture is saying about Jesus, and thier disbelief that Jesus is The Son of God.Also, 37 goes further to say that if they dont believe in the scriptures or what i say, than believe these works that they come from the Father. In other words he does Works that God soley does.
Than 38 clearly clarifies that THis God and Jesus are In Eachother.
If all those points are literal, than the conclusive thought must also be literal.
Lets add more.
Why Did Jesus bring up that Men are gods?He stated and quoted scriptures about gods who die like men.
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