Is jesus god the father?

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,12:43)

Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2011,08:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,12:19) Hi All Mike says… “You, on the other hand are a coward———-> How stupid, man.  It says alot about you and what your goals are———->  COWARD.“ Is this kind of slander allowed for a moderator or any one for that matter? What gives? Are we now going to be forced to level debate against someone who disagrees on a particular point? “What kind of high-minded, self indulging, dictator crap is this Mike?” WJ JW stop crying ,you just look for attention ok I see what I can do , first Christ is not God the father by any mean,because he was created,anyone created is so inferior and dependable of the one who create them,it does not matter what title they receive , just has Obama is the president and put in function many ministers but they never will be equal to him. God does not create another God, you guys are rolling dices Pierre Where does it say that Jesus was created?? thats not biblical. JESUS CREATED YOU FYI! roll your dice with that one.

D

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
Col 1:17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together

I hope to be an help to you

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,00:59)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2011,08:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,12:19) Hi All Mike says… “You, on the other hand are a coward———-> How stupid, man.  It says alot about you and what your goals are———->  COWARD.“ Is this kind of slander allowed for a moderator or any one for that matter? What gives? Are we now going to be forced to level debate against someone who disagrees on a particular point? “What kind of high-minded, self indulging, dictator crap is this Mike?” WJ JW stop crying ,you just look for attention ok I see what I can do , first Christ is not God the father by any mean,because he was created,anyone created is so inferior and dependable of the one who create them,it does not matter what title they receive , just has Obama is the president and put in function many ministers but they never will be equal to him. God does not create another God, you guys are rolling dices Pierre Where does it say that Jesus was created?? thats not biblical. JESUS CREATED YOU FYI! roll your dice with that one. D Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. Col 1:17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together I hope to be an help to you Pierre

um i hope it helps you.

because none of those scriptures state that christ was created.

they state that christ created you.

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,14:48)

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,00:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2011,08:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,12:19) Hi All Mike says… “You, on the other hand are a coward———-> How stupid, man.  It says alot about you and what your goals are———->  COWARD.“ Is this kind of slander allowed for a moderator or any one for that matter? What gives? Are we now going to be forced to level debate against someone who disagrees on a particular point? “What kind of high-minded, self indulging, dictator crap is this Mike?” WJ JW stop crying ,you just look for attention ok I see what I can do , first Christ is not God the father by any mean,because he was created,anyone created is so inferior and dependable of the one who create them,it does not matter what title they receive , just has Obama is the president and put in function many ministers but they never will be equal to him. God does not create another God, you guys are rolling dices Pierre Where does it say that Jesus was created?? thats not biblical. JESUS CREATED YOU FYI! roll your dice with that one. D Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. Col 1:17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together I hope to be an help to you Pierre um i hope it helps you. because none of those scriptures state that christ was created. they state that christ created you.

D

sorry I forget;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,02:01)

D sorry I forget;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Pierre

Oh you mean the creation that Jesuschrist made himself, because he is the image of the invisible God?

Ya nice try

[Istari]

Please can someone explain what is meant in Colossians 1:3 where
it is written:
'We give thanks to the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ..'

And also in verse 2 where it is written: 'Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ'.

I mean, does it not state clearly:
1) the Father as God
2) Jesus as Lord
3) God as Father to 'Us' and Jesus Christ

At no point given, all the opportunities, is Jesus Christ given the title of God as is done in both references to the Father.

In fact, doesn't verse 3 state explicitly that the Father is GOD – and God of Jesus?

Moreover, Trinitarian-wise(?) there is no reference to the Holy Spirit.

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,15:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,02:01) D sorry I forget;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Pierre Oh you mean the creation that Jesuschrist made himself, because he is the image of the invisible God? Ya nice try

D

the image is not God ,God does not give his glory to no one,

Pierre

[Istari]

Are God and Jesus different persons as the Apostles saw them such that they write:
E.g. 1 Peter 1:3 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…'

And 2 Peter 1:2 'Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of GOD AND OF Jesus our Lord'

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 03 2011,15:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,02:01) D sorry I forget;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Pierre Oh you mean the creation that Jesuschrist made himself, because he is the image of the invisible God? Ya nice try

That's funny, Pierre!

Dennison, read it slowly:

1. Jesus is the VISIBLE image OF the invisible God. So “God” is invisible, right? Jesus is someone who is the visible image OF that invisible One, right?

2. Is God Almighty the firstBORN of anything? Doesn't BORN imply a beginning at some time? Even if you play Jack's game of being “given firstborn rights”, you still have to wonder WHO could ever GIVE God Almighty anything? WHO is it that has something God Almighty doesn't already have?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi D,

This thread just got busier and more and more scriptures are being posted that shoot down your theory of Jesus being the Father.  Can you really stand against all of these scriptures, and the hundreds more that are out there, with only your literal understanding of the Father being “IN” Jesus?

Shall we log this in the “Debate Log” that t8 created?  I'll share winner credit with Pierre and Istari, and you can share loser credit with Keith the Cowardly Lion.  Sound good?  

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,04:41)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 04 2011,15:07) Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2011,02:01) D sorry I forget;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Pierre Oh you mean the creation that Jesuschrist made himself, because he is the image of the invisible God? Ya nice try D the image is not God ,God does not give his glory to no one, Pierre

wHat????
THe bible clearly states that God glorifys Jesus, and that Jesus will in return glorify God.

Pierre stop contradicting your self.
What you state is not biblical.

The scriputre itself states that He is THE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD.

Can you not read?
So how is it possible that you state that the image is NOT GOD.
That doesnt make any sense.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Istari @ April 04 2011,04:38)

Please can someone explain what is meant in Colossians 1:3 where it is written: 'We give thanks to the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ..' And also in verse 2 where it is written: 'Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ'. I mean, does it not state clearly: 1) the Father as God 2) Jesus as Lord 3) God as Father to 'Us' and Jesus Christ At no point given, all the opportunities, is Jesus Christ given the title of God as is done in both references to the Father. In fact, doesn't verse 3 state explicitly that the Father is GOD – and God of Jesus? Moreover, Trinitarian-wise(?) there is no reference to the Holy Spirit.

Im not a trinitarian JA,

But Lets stick to what I posted because this is quickly becoming a new subject.

Right now, since MIke called me out.
Im sticking to John 10 for the current topic at the moment.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,05:06)

Hi D, This thread just got busier and more and more scriptures are being posted that shoot down your theory of Jesus being the Father.  Can you really stand against all of these scriptures, and the hundreds more that are out there, with only your literal understanding of the Father being “IN” Jesus? Shall we log this in the “Debate Log” that t8 created?  I'll share winner credit with Pierre and Istari, and you can share loser credit with Keith the Cowardly Lion.  Sound good?   mike

This is not a debate thread.

You didnt WIN anything, when we JUST started the hotseat thread, where we are clearly talking about WHAT I BELIEVE?

So thats stupid mike. lol

Your so conceited.

I posted one scripture, and to talk about that one scripture and including the context, and you have already switched subjects many times.

You guys havent WON anything, espeacily when it comes to the rules of debate one must present his case at least.

plussssssssssssss
if this counts as a debate, than you already lost the Jesus is an Angel bogus crap.

anyways can you stop getting off topic and give me a chance to catch up on the thread.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 03 2011,18:40)

wHat? THe bible clearly states that God glorifys Jesus, and that Jesus will in return glorify God. Pierre stop contradicting your self. What you state is not biblical. The scriputre itself states that He is THE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. Can you not read? So how is it possible that you state that the image is NOT GOD. That doesnt make any sense.

D, stop whining and learn to respect your elders.  Pierre is so obviously right, but you are apparently blind to truth.  

What Pierre says is that an IMAGE OF GOD is not GOD HIMSELF.  Get it?  If Paul wanted to say Jesus was GOD HIMSELF, then he would have said that.  Instead, he said Jesus was an IMAGE OF GOD.  There's a difference if you're willing to take off the blinders.

And Pierre is also right that God shares HIS GLORY with no other.  Because God has glorified Jesus does not mean it is GOD'S GLORY, does it?  Jesus said that Solomon had glory also.  Does that mean that all glory anywhere is automatically GOD'S GLORY?

Slow down for a minute and read things through before going off on a tangent against your obviously more educated brother.

mike

[Istari]

Hi SF,
I didn't post to anybody in particular – it was an open question to everyone?
Thanks.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 03 2011,18:46)

anyways can you stop getting off topic and give me a chance to catch up on the thread.

D,

What's to “catch up” with?  John 10 says the Father is IN Jesus, and you take that to mean Jesus IS God the Father.  But John 17 says the Father will be IN us, and you DON'T take that to mean WE will be God the Father.

That pretty much sums it up.  I agree that things are beginning to get clustered here.  But is there really much more to discuss?  If you take 10 literally, then you must take 17 literally.  Are you willing to do that?

If you think you have more scripture to add, and don't want things clustered, ask t8 to move this to the debates.  I don't mind.

mike

[Istari]

Could you or Mike or anyone reading this thread give me a credible response anyway.
The battery on my mobile is running out so please hurry…!

[mikeboll64]

Istari,

Ask ONE question about John 10 or John 17, and I'll be happy to answer it. Why would you ask me and Pierre these questions anyway, when we've brought the same points up against the “Jesus is God” people many times?

mike

[Istari]

Mike,
I thought the thread topic was 'Is Jesus God the Father?'

Has it changed?

2:50am…Goodnight…

[mikeboll64]

Istari,

I stand corrected, for that is the title.  You have missed the beginning where D and I were taking it one scripture at a time.  But you are in your rights to address anything on topic with the title, so I apologize about that part.

But I restate my wonder at why you would ask Pierre and me about points we have made ourselves.

I agree with your points.  If Jehovah is the Father and God OF our Lord Jesus Christ, then that one scripture alone should be enough to end this charade…………and the whole trinity doctrine for that matter.  I just didn't want D to start crying like I did in the bodies thread.        

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Hi Mike,

Quote

I have been.  I've used ONE SCRIPTURE to solidly refute your understanding of ONE SCRIPTURE.

Thats not how this works.  Because this is only going to go back and forth mike, forever and ever.  
No, stick to the scripture given.  We are talking about Interpretation.  And also, I find John 17 as part of my proof texts.
Dude your creating a spider web of arguements, that will never have an end.  If we are going to talk about what I believe.  Interpret the scripture, take what it says, lets find out what it is saying, and than move on to the next scripture.
This is what you used to do a long time ago with me, that never worked out because your incosistant with your own rules.

Quote

YES.  Does John 17 state that some of us will be one with the Father?  Yes or No?

 Yes

Quote

Answer you own question, D.  If God can be “IN US” without it meaning we ARE God, then why can't God be “IN JESUS” without it meaning HE IS GOD?

Why cant you answer the DARN Question Mike.  Your starting to be a hypocrite about answering Questions.  this is like the third time you answered a Question with a Question.
Come on dude, get to it. We are talking about what and WHY I believe this right?

Quote

My stance is in line with hundreds of scriptures.  For example, the ones that have Jesus praying to his God in heaven, and the one that says some of us will also be “in God”.  YOUR stance, on the other hand, ignores those hundreds of other scriptures and ends up concluding that some of us will also BE GOD.  What does “the Father is greater than me” mean if the Father IS “me”?

My Stance is in line with Hundreds of Scriptures.  For example, the one that have Jesus Praying to his God in Heaven, and the one that says some of us will also be “in God”.  YOUR STANCE, on the other hand, ignores those HUNDREDS of other scriptures and ends up concluding that Some of us will are also BE gODS (RULERS).  What does “the Father and I are one” mean if the Father is IN “you”.
(I can also make the same claims, and make the same logic, but that doesnt prove anything mike. Come on are you done stating things unwarrented, are you done playing silly games??)

Lets get serious mike.  Interpret the scripture for what it says.
Than we will move on.

Quote

You're telling me I'm jumping the gun, but then YOU want to go into why the Jews wanted to kill him and how one being did the work of another being?

Of course, Im not going to let you say whatever you want to.  I have reason and logic behind my answers, but for some reason you cant follow a simple debate procedure, nor a correct way to refute the interpretation of scripture.

Quote

D, this is the bottom line.  If God being IN Jesus means Jesus IS God, then God being IN us means that we are also God.  Are you willing to accept that we are also God?  If not, then let this charade end and accept the scriptural truth that Jesus is the servant, son, messiah and angel OF his God, and not the God he PRAYED to and WORSHIPPED. mike

Mike, this is the bottome line.  IF God being IN  Jesus means Jesus is God, than its obvious that Jesus BEING IN US, makes him OUR GOD.   Dont you already accept that you are a god, according to your defintion of elohim?
Ditto, let the charade end and accept the scriptural truth that Jesus is the SON, MESSIAH, LORD, KING OF KINGS, AND YOUR GOD FOREVER AND EVER, and is the ONE and the SAME GOD that Jesus revealed to whom we must pray and worship in spirit and truth, and WHOM YOU WILL CONFESS IS LORD AND bow your knees to.
Jesus will conquer your soul Mike, the same way he conquered Pauls, (Dont ever forget these words).

Ight viejo?  
Look what I WANT, is to get down to buisness and talk about the scripture on hand.  What is it literally stating, and John 17 is a further chapter and a different situation from John 10.   So before we even go there, why not discuss the circumstance, the substance, the greek and hebrew, the reactions of the jews, the context, and interpret what Jesus was saying to this specfic group.

I have MANY other scriptures, but I want to stick to this one and FINISH a debate for once.  

since i started here mike, its a never ending cycle of arugements that NEVER end.  You go from one subject to another.  
We can go back and forth and state (as you have) “oh im preaching the truth, oh i have the scriptures on my side”
Its only show your arrogance and how conceited you are about what you believe.  but, stating you have the truth on your side, wouldnt ever convince me just because You say So.

Do you get that? Than it would be illiogical for me to just believe the crap you say all the time just because YOU say so.
You live in this Mike lalala land where just because you state that hundreds of scriptures are on your side than it MUST be true, but dont you beleive it would be totally irresponisble and stupid on my part just to believe the pathetic egotistic arguements you provided to refute a scripture?  

Come on Godfather! get down to buisness or swim with the Fishes.  

Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
I personally give you that scripture aside from the thread debate, so that the Almighty God whom I know, can do what he wills with you.

[Author]

Posts