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The trouble is in our society the term “angel” brings to mind a select classification of beings since God uses these particular beings as messengers so much. Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 07 2011,07:50) The trouble is in our society the term “angel” brings to mind a select classification of beings since God uses these particular beings as messengers so much. Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being. My opinion – Wm
Amen SeekingHebrew and Greek words have different meanings just like any language does.
If the context shows that it is an angelic being then it should be translated that way.
If it shows that one is a messenger and not an angelic being then it should be translated that way.
It is the same with the words elohyim and theos. If context says it is a judge, ruler, leader, angel, God, gods, or men then it should be translated that way because not all judges, angels, men etc are “God” or gods.
Blessings!
Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,09:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 02 2011,17:06) How can Mike say that Christ is literally 'begotten' and be an angel if the Father who begat Him is not an angel?
OMG I hadn't thought of that, I think you just check mated Mike. You are correct.If Jesus is the “exact representation of his being, essence or nature” then the Father would have to be an angel in nature!
Like begets like.
So Mike how are you going to explain the Father begetting an angel unless you believe the Father is an angel?
That is definitly out of the Watchtowers text book.
Mike's Christology is way off of “early Christianity” and “Modern day Chrisendom”.
But that is what happens when you are self taught and do not have a teacher or haven't sit under good anointed teaching. Eph 4 makes it clear that we cannot grow apart from the five fold ministry gifts.
Hey Mike, since you are wrong on this point could you be wrong on other points?
Is God an Angel? Please answer Mike, yes or no?
WJ
Thanks Keith,It was my Queen-Knight mate.
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 06 2011,23:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2011,11:41) 
So Paul was saying he was welcomed as an angel of God, as if he were God Himself? Wm, does Bill Gates have a “higher status” than a billionaire? What if I had said “Rockefeller” or “Getty” or “Hearst”? Did I just list people who were “higher” than billionaires?
Let me try this one:
Welcomed me as if I were a football player, as if I were Terry Bradshaw himself.
Is Terry Bradshaw in this exercise of a “higer status” than a football player? What if the player I named was someone much lessor known?
mike
Well I'm not a Steelers fan, now if I said Welcomed me as if I were a football player, as if I were Walter Payton himself. and if I was addressing Bears fans most would see my reference to Payton as to one who is the very epitome of a great football player.Now if you inserted a lessor player you would be insulting me.
My opinion – Wm
Hi Wm,That doesn't answer my point. How do you come to the conclusion that Bill Gates is of “higher status” than “a billionaire”?
What if Paul had said, “Welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Gabriel himself”. Now would that mean that Gabriel is of “higher status” than “an angel of God”?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ April 06 2011,22:49) Prophets of God are messengers of God and are not angels.
Hi Kerwin,John the Baptist is called an angel in scripture. Jesus also calls him a prophet. So one MAN was both a prophet and an angel of his God.
I think all but t8 are missing the simplicity of this issue. ANY messenger of God is also an angel of God, because the words mean the same exact thing. So simply, if Jesus EVER spoke the message of his God, then he is an angel, period.
The only other thing to know is that some messengers of God are men, and others are spirits. Usually, men are called “messengers” in English translations, and spirit messengers of God are called “angels”.
But either way, we know that Jesus is now a life-giving SPIRIT. And Revelation proves that Jesus is still, as a spirit, forwarding messages from his God to others.
So Jesus is an angel in both the “man messenger” definition, like John the Baptist, and in the “spirit being messenger” definition, like Gabriel.
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (t8 @ April 07 2011,03:39) Where in scripture does it say, “angelic being”? Angels are not a race or species.
This is the reason I'm a “coward”. D is trying to prove some species, of which he claims Jesus is not a part. And while I realize and proclaim that Jesus is much higher than any other messenger of God, he is still a messenger of his God, and therefore still an angel of his God.I really don't know what more Dennison wants, but his posts are fading into the gray area and calling for speculation about things neither of us know anything about.
But that's okay. He can think “angel” is a “species”, and that I'm a coward. I can live with both of those things.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2011,09:46) It is the same with the words elohyim and theos. If context says it is a judge, ruler, leader, angel, God, gods, or men then it should be translated that way because not all judges, angels, men etc are “God” or gods.
And who gets to decide, Keith? What if YOU want to translate theos as God, with a capped “G” for Jesus, but I want to translate it as “ruler” or “judge”?Who says YOU'RE the one who's right? The TRINITARIAN scholars?
Because they all have to base their own OPINION of which word is used where on what they personally THINK the scripture is saying. And when we get right down to it, the only “solid Jesus is God proof texts” we have are the ones where Trinitarian scholars have offered their OPINIONS that this “theos” should be “God” with a capped “G”.
Take away all of those OPINIONS, and how much ammo does that leave your comically flawed man-made doctrine with? Not much, I suppose.
mike
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 07 2011,06:50) Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being.
Hi Wm,That is the only “point of view” that's valid. Because the simple fact of the matter is that “angel” and “messenger” are the same word in both the Hebrew and Greek languages. So if Jesus IS a messenger, then Jesus IS an angel.
And I agree that this info in and of itself shouldn't be used to form the opinion that Jesus was created. But we have Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 for that, right?
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 07 2011,10:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,09:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 02 2011,17:06) How can Mike say that Christ is literally 'begotten' and be an angel if the Father who begat Him is not an angel?
OMG I hadn't thought of that, I think you just check mated Mike. You are correct.If Jesus is the “exact representation of his being, essence or nature” then the Father would have to be an angel in nature!
Like begets like.
So Mike how are you going to explain the Father begetting an angel unless you believe the Father is an angel?
That is definitly out of the Watchtowers text book.
Mike's Christology is way off of “early Christianity” and “Modern day Chrisendom”.
But that is what happens when you are self taught and do not have a teacher or haven't sit under good anointed teaching. Eph 4 makes it clear that we cannot grow apart from the five fold ministry gifts.
Hey Mike, since you are wrong on this point could you be wrong on other points?
Is God an Angel? Please answer Mike, yes or no?
WJ
Thanks Keith,It was my Queen-Knight mate.
Really Jack? Did you not even read how your “check mate” point was swiftly made null and void? Yet, here you are, patting yourself on the back.Question: Did God ever deliver someone else's message? If He did, then He too would be an angel. So…………did He?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2011,08:40) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 06 2011,23:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2011,11:41) So Paul was saying he was welcomed as an angel of God, as if he were God Himself? Wm, does Bill Gates have a “higher status” than a billionaire? What if I had said “Rockefeller” or “Getty” or “Hearst”? Did I just list people who were “higher” than billionaires?
Let me try this one:
Welcomed me as if I were a football player, as if I were Terry Bradshaw himself.
Is Terry Bradshaw in this exercise of a “higer status” than a football player? What if the player I named was someone much lessor known?
mike
Well I'm not a Steelers fan, now if I said Welcomed me as if I were a football player, as if I were Walter Payton himself. and if I was addressing Bears fans most would see my reference to Payton as to one who is the very epitome of a great football player.Now if you inserted a lessor player you would be insulting me.
My opinion – Wm
Hi Wm,That doesn't answer my point. How do you come to the conclusion that Bill Gates is of “higher status” than “a billionaire”?
What if Paul had said, “Welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Gabriel himself”. Now would that mean that Gabriel is of “higher status” than “an angel of God”?
mike
Mike,
Sorry but I felt my post answered that question.I ignored your “example” with Bill Gates as it was a different format from the scripture you were trying to compare it with.
If the second emphasis is added it is typically focused on either an example that exemplifies the item being discussed or something a whole new level higher.
I was not gifted with great linguistic skills so what I presented may have been confusing to all or you may be so fixed on what you believe you are confused by anything not agreeing with your beliefs.
Is this why others are always saying they answered your questions while you claim they didn't?
My opinion – Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2011,09:17) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 07 2011,06:50) Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being.
Hi Wm,That is the only “point of view” that's valid. Because the simple fact of the matter is that “angel” and “messenger” are the same word in both the Hebrew and Greek languages. So if Jesus IS a messenger, then Jesus IS an angel.
And I agree that this info in and of itself shouldn't be used to form the opinion that Jesus was created. But we have Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 for that, right?
mike
Mike,
I am not arguing that Jesus was a messenger so why don't we address the heart of the issue, I assume you believe that Jesus was created by God based on these scriptures:Galatians 4:14 (Amplified Bible)14 And [yet] although my physical condition was [such] a trial to you, you did not regard it with contempt, or scorn and loathe and reject me; but you received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus [Himself]!
Colossians 1:15 (Amplified Bible)15 [Now] He is the [a]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
Revelation 3:14 (Amplified Bible)14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation.
Am I understanding you correctly?
Wm
Mike Boll,
You wrote:
Quote
But either way, we know that Jesus is now a life-giving SPIRIT.I understand that Scripture differently in that Adam was created in two parts one part was created from the earth while the other was a Spirit that gave the body life
The Spirit of Christ gives eternal life to all that choose to obey all of Jesus’ teachings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2011,06:06) Quote (t8 @ April 07 2011,03:39) Where in scripture does it say, “angelic being”? Angels are not a race or species.
This is the reason I'm a “coward”. D is trying to prove some species, of which he claims Jesus is not a part. And while I realize and proclaim that Jesus is much higher than any other messenger of God, he is still a messenger of his God, and therefore still an angel of his God.I really don't know what more Dennison wants, but his posts are fading into the gray area and calling for speculation about things neither of us know anything about.
But that's okay. He can think “angel” is a “species”, and that I'm a coward. I can live with both of those things.
mike
Mike,what your basically saying is that your whole religion is a speculation becasue you cant seem to tell anyone what exactly Jesus IS.
Keith asked you,
I have asked you.Why do you keep avoiding the question you cowardly lion??
yet you like to accuse others of doing the same?
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 07 2011,23:50) The trouble is in our society the term “angel” brings to mind a select classification of beings since God uses these particular beings as messengers so much. Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being. My opinion – Wm
Yes, I agree.Creation is defined as that which was created by God through Christ/Word. That leaves one difficulty, where did Christ/Word come from?
This is the cause of many a debate.
Some argue he was created although that goes against the definition of creation in scripture, and some say he was begotten, but then some argue that he was begotten at the point of being a man, while others think that he was originally begotten before creation.
But yes, I am with you on this one.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 08 2011,03:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2011,09:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 02 2011,17:06) How can Mike say that Christ is literally 'begotten' and be an angel if the Father who begat Him is not an angel?
OMG I hadn't thought of that, I think you just check mated Mike. You are correct.If Jesus is the “exact representation of his being, essence or nature” then the Father would have to be an angel in nature!
Like begets like.
So Mike how are you going to explain the Father begetting an angel unless you believe the Father is an angel?
That is definitly out of the Watchtowers text book.
Mike's Christology is way off of “early Christianity” and “Modern day Chrisendom”.
But that is what happens when you are self taught and do not have a teacher or haven't sit under good anointed teaching. Eph 4 makes it clear that we cannot grow apart from the five fold ministry gifts.
Hey Mike, since you are wrong on this point could you be wrong on other points?
Is God an Angel? Please answer Mike, yes or no?
WJ
Thanks Keith,It was my Queen-Knight mate.
Before you sign that dodgy check mate, ask yourself where is it written that angels are a class of being or race?Then ask yourself why that same word Malak is applied to Jesus, John the Baptist and why one of the Old Testament prophets is called 'My Malak'?
Quote (t8 @ April 07 2011,17:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 07 2011,20:57) I am not seeing where we are disagreeing. Are you instead just providing further examples?
I just assumed that you believed that angels were exclusively Seraphs and Cherubs given this statement of yours.Quote Prophets of God are messengers of God and are not angels.
I was pointing out that many are called angels and that it can be applied to any messenger because it is exactly the same word.It is translators who choose to use the word 'angel' or 'messenger', from the one word 'malak'.
Still I am not to clear on your stance, so I am not necessarily disagreeing, but pointing out that even men can be called angels.
T8,I just did not see how being a messenger has anything to do with Jesus being a Spiritual being.
Some here do use angel to mean Spiritual being.
Please note: I believe there are a number of types of being from the Spiritual realm though as far as I know none look like winged babies. The Cherubs certainly do not from what I have read in scripture.
Quote (t8 @ April 07 2011,17:35) I should also say that there are scriptures or events that are quoted more than once in the bible and one says angel/angels and in another biblical book it says man/men.
It is my understand that men when referring to angels means of the male gender. While man in reference to Jesus means human. I would have to look into the origional words again to make sure and I do not believe I have ever checked every instance when such an address was made.Quote (seekingtruth @ April 07 2011,17:50) The trouble is in our society the term “angel” brings to mind a select classification of beings since God uses these particular beings as messengers so much. Men, angels (created spiritual beings), and Jesus Himself have all played the part of being a messenger, so from that point of view yes, Jesus was an “angel” (as in messenger), but agreeing to that statement in no way should be understood as my believing that Jesus was a “created” spiritual being. My opinion – Wm
Exactlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!This is the same thing im trying to prove, yet Mike has failed to provide any evidence that states that Jesus is.
Jesus is called an angel.
Does anyone want proof or do we all agree that he is an angel?People think that Jesus is not the Angel of the LORD because they say that he is not an angel. But scripture says he is an angel.
Kerwin, et al,
Why does anyone believe that any sort of angel/Heavenly Spirit has WINGS…
Where on earth is this misconception drawn from?And Satan has horns, dresses in a red outfit and carries a pitchfork, and tortures fallen man in dispicable manners for eternity to his pleasure in the firey hell of Tartarus…!!! Right?
And Cherubs are little chubby fluffy flying 'fants with wings ….
Ha ha ha …
Are Angel Spirits not invisible creatures of heaven with awesome power?
If so, and is so, then how do some 'see' them as they imagine… Can they see invisible creatures?
If they appear visibly as described then that is how they chose to represent their form in the visible world – it in no way describes their form in the invisible realm, else ask what does a powerful omnipresent (virtually) creature need wings for? And genitals, and clothes and a bow and arrow?
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