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Quote (karmarie @ April 26 2011,19:15) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,13:38) Karmarie,
That doesn't answer the question. Is one true and one not true?
Haha Kathi,I think this answers that…
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
And I also like this verse;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
To me, God is the souce of ALL, and everything else comes after that.
But I do realise that the next after God is the Lord Jesus Christ. Then all else after.Example
1 Corin 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.And I also see that when they asked Jesus how they should pray, Jesus said to pray to the Father (Our Father who art in Heaven).
Karmarie,
These verses are good. Let's look at the context:1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Here Jesus is not being a teacher but a Son talking to His God who is His Father. He was not presenting a doctrine about the Father being true and Himself not being true. He mentioned that both of them are necessary to know for eternal life and that He, the Son was the giver of eternal life. How could a false deity give eternal life? The Son is not a false deity if that is what you are implying by using this verse. The Son had no need to explain who He was to His Father.
and here:
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
This passage is also not Jesus teaching doctrine but talking to His Father. Note that oneness is from the many. There is not just one that is one but many who are one. The oneness of the God is a unity of Father and Son and we may be one with each other in the knowledge of 'them' (a plural pronoun). We aren't to be one in the Father but one in them. You are not to be one in me and I am not to be one in you but we and many more are to be one in them…knowing both the Father and the Son. There are many who are one, not just one that is one.
Quote To me, God is the souce of ALL, and everything else comes after that.
But I do realise that the next after God is the Lord Jesus Christ. Then all else after.The Deity, God the Father AND God the Son are the source of all together with their Spirit. All things came into being through the word of God, who is God the Son.
Deity has always been God the Father AND God the Son together with their Spirit. No new deity was ever formed before that Deity or after that Deity. Deity did not become Father and then Father and Son.
Kathi
Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 26 2011,22:00) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,12:46) BC&JW,
The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord. Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord.
29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si′nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.(Exodus 34:29-30)Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he?
BC&JW,Let me clarify, the verse Ez 43:2 does not mention an angel.
2and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.
So if you are asking about the God of Israel and whether this is the Angel Jehovah, then I would say that is Jehovah the Father not Jehovah the Son. The glory coming from the Father is the Son for the Son is the radiance of the Father's glory. The glory that fills the whole earth is the glory of the gospel from what I have read and suppose to be true.
Rev 18:1
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
This 'angel' is not the angel Jehovah either but possibly a minister or minister team that has been given authority from heaven and their glory that they have, that also illumines the earth, is also the glory of the gospel.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,20:10) Do you ignore the witness if you don't like what he said. You wouldn't ignore them if they said something like “it is grammatically possible to say the word was a god” In fact you would plaster it all over HN from one thread to another.
Hi Kathi,I agree with ALL of the scholars that can show scriptural support FOR their claims. The things YOU sometimes claim have NO scriptures to support them. And the fact that others claim the same exact thing with no scriptures to support THEM either is of no consequence to me.
On the other hand, I can get behind the things they claim that DO agree with scripture.
So…………..where is the scripture that supports you and your “scholar's” claim that Jesus was existing inside God all along and therefore didn't have a beginning?
Also, thanks for realizing that the belief that Jesus is the Son OF God is the foundation his Church was built upon. Now if only there was a scripture calling him also “God the Son”, you'd have made a completely scriptural comment. But as it is, you're sitting at 50/50.
Is Satan “God the Devil” Kathi? Was Deborah “God the Judge”? Were the men Jesus spoke of “God the Humans”?
If not, then there is nothing but “wishful thinking” that causes you to say “God the Son”.
mike
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,20:17) 'from ancient times' can mean 'from eternity'.
Hi Kathi,There has been some discussion about this. The fact that Jesus says he will be with us until the END of “aion” makes it hard to believe the word means “eternity” – because “eternity” has no END. (Matt 28:20)
And “aion” is the word the LXX authors used for Micah 5:2.
Also, the LXX says his BEGINNING was from aion. How does someone who always existed have a BEGINNING?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,20:35)
Mike,
The matter didn't come from eternal substance within God. It came into existence by His will as new substance. Like I said, parts of God's substance did not evolve into trees and fish and people otherwise all would be parts of God and could be worshiped.
Scripture please? And we are not to worship anything OF God, such as “parts OF God” Kathi. We don't worship the feet OF God or the wisdom OF God or the love OF God. We are to worship “GOD”. Everything God created is separate from the actual “Being of God”. That includes His Son. But that doesn't change the fact that if there was nothing but God from eternity, then every substance or matter that exists somehow came OUT OF the Being of God. Who are you to just claim that “this” substance that came from God is different from “that” substance that came from God?
Give me one good SCRIPTURAL reason I should believe you. Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,20:35)
What God did was just decide to create and gave the command and there was new matter.
Kathi, even if existing matter came from the “command” of God, or the “word” of God, or the “thoughts” of God, it came FROM GOD. You cannot take it upon yourself to just claim this stuff without scriptural support. Jesus is different because he is the only thing that ever came DIRECTLY from God. All other things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus. But nonetheless, it all came FROM God, just as Jesus did. My claim is supported by scriptures. Yours is not.Please DIRECTLY answer my question Kathi:
So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then?
1. My son is a creation.
2. My son was begotten.I'm trying to prove that it's not a matter of “either/or”, but is a matter of “both”. The fact that Jesus was begotten does not exclude him in any way from being a part of the creation of his God. YOU think it does, but cannot show scriptural support. I'm asking a simple question to show your claim is unfounded so you can then take Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 for what they say. So please answer the question.
mike
Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 26 2011,21:00) Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he? 
Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,15:32) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 26 2011,22:00) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,12:46) BC&JW,
The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord. Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord.
29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si′nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.(Exodus 34:29-30)Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he?
BC&JW,Let me clarify, the verse Ez 43:2 does not mention an angel.
2and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.
So if you are asking about the God of Israel and whether this is the Angel Jehovah, then I would say that is Jehovah the Father not Jehovah the Son. The glory coming from the Father is the Son for the Son is the radiance of the Father's glory. The glory that fills the whole earth is the glory of the gospel from what I have read and suppose to be true.
Rev 18:1
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
This 'angel' is not the angel Jehovah either but possibly a minister or minister team that has been given authority from heaven and their glory that they have, that also illumines the earth, is also the glory of the gospel.
Kathi
I never implied that the Ezekiel verse was about an angel, I was just making a Trin cross reference to Revelation 18:1. You know how trins show a verse that only God does(supposedly) and then use another verse where it talks about the son and he's doing the same thing(almost). Anyway how God revealed himself in the Old covenant is debatable, some people say through various signs, others say through angels practically Jesus as “the angel of THE LORD” etc.There's only ONE angel pronouncing Judgment to Babylon in revelation 18:1, there's no one else unless there's some sort of trinity in angels??!!!!
18 After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven, with great authority; and the earth was lighted up from his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”
On a final note God's glory in Ezekiel was also shone upon a city that was about to be destroyed so both glories where shone upon ungodly cities.
Srry for double posting I just like to say lightenup you remind me of a born again I talked to out in service today(preaching).
Hi all,
I have little time to respond on HN. I have no electricity at home and may not for a few more days, so I might stop in the library or somewhere but that is why I am not posting a response now. SorryQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2011,22:01) Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,20:17) 'from ancient times' can mean 'from eternity'.
Hi Kathi,There has been some discussion about this. The fact that Jesus says he will be with us until the END of “aion” makes it hard to believe the word means “eternity” – because “eternity” has no END. (Matt 28:20)
And “aion” is the word the LXX authors used for Micah 5:2.
Also, the LXX says his BEGINNING was from aion. How does someone who always existed have a BEGINNING?
mike
Mike,
You askedQuote Also, the LXX says his BEGINNING was from aion. How does someone who always existed have a BEGINNING? How does someone who always existed have a beginning? Mike how does someone who pre-existed have a beginning in Mary? You have to know what beginning you are talking about. Did the Son have a beginning in His ministry? You see, you have to ask, 'beginning in what/as what?'
The Son had a beginning as the 'Begotten God' when He was begotten before the ages but before that, He was the yet to be begotten God.
My children had a beginning in a sense as to their birth but their essential beginning was around nine months before that.
Kathi
Hi Kathi,
I realize you got behind in your correspondence. So I will bump two main points that I would really like answered:
1. So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then?
A. My son is a creation.
B. My son was begotten.I'm trying to prove that it's not a matter of “either/or”, but is a matter of “both”. The fact that Jesus was begotten does not exclude him in any way from being a part of the creation of his God.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,13:51) The Son had a beginning as the 'Begotten God' when He was begotten before the ages but before that, He was the yet to be begotten God.
2. Where is the scripture that supports you and your “scholar's” claim that Jesus was existing inside God all along and therefore didn't have a beginning?peace,
mikeMike,
Thanks for bumping those points for me…much appreciated!Quote 1. So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then? A. My son is a creation.
B. My son was begotten.A. Yes, your son is a creation in the sense that your son is a creation of God as a part of creation.
B. Yes, your son was begotten/born, i.e. your son was begotten as an offspring of yours who existed as a fetus before he was born/begotten.
Your son is not God's offspring, the only begotten Son IS God's offspring. Adam was an offspring of the earth. Your son is Adam's offspring, not God's.Is 42:5
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,The only begotten Son and Father with their Spirit were together the creator that created the creation that your son is a part of. Your son is from the earth, God's only begotten Son was not from the earth. God's only begotten Son came out from Him.
John 17:8
Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.For the Son to have come 'out from,' He had to have been 'inside of' before He came 'out of.'
The only begotten Son came out of the Father as an offspring before creation, He was before all things in heaven and on earth and He holds all things together by the power of His word.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2011,16:25) Mike,
Thanks for bumping those points for me…much appreciated!Quote 1. So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then? A. My son is a creation.
B. My son was begotten.A. Yes, your son is a creation in the sense that your son is a creation of God as a part of creation.
B. Yes, your son was begotten/born, i.e. your son was begotten as an offspring of yours who existed as a fetus before he was born/begotten.
Your son is not God's offspring, the only begotten Son IS God's offspring. Adam was an offspring of the earth. Your son is Adam's offspring, not God's.Is 42:5
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,The only begotten Son and Father with their Spirit were together the creator that created the creation that your son is a part of. Your son is from the earth, God's only begotten Son was not from the earth. God's only begotten Son came out from Him.
John 17:8
Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.For the Son to have come 'out from,' He had to have been 'inside of' before He came 'out of.'
The only begotten Son came out of the Father as an offspring before creation, He was before all things in heaven and on earth and He holds all things together by the power of His word.
Kathi
Kathiyea now you got it ; I came out from thee;
you see before he was not existing ,he only start to exist at his creation ;Paul says;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things,you see the same way the first man was made to the image(but many thing were already created by that time) so was the son the first creation of God.(nothing was created at that time)so it only could be the image of the father ,God.
Pierre
Pierre,
Deity is not created, Jesus is deity because He is the only begotten Son of God. His nature is not a created nature. He 'came out from thee' and was always within before that. The Father was all sufficient to save from eternity. He didn't have to create a savior to become flesh, He always had that savior within Him.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2011,18:43) Pierre,
Deity is not created, Jesus is deity because He is the only begotten Son of God. His nature is not a created nature. He 'came out from thee' and was always within before that. The Father was all sufficient to save from eternity. He didn't have to create a savior to become flesh, He always had that savior within Him.Kathi
KathiGod did not created a son to die ,this is the out comes to save the human race,
this got nothing to do with Christ being created,now this is what scriptures are saying ,;;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,this is what it says about his dead and resurrection;;he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
this shows that he also is the first for the resurrection so that he will be first in every thing.
if you do not believe scriptures why are you here ?
Pierre
Kathi
there is only one God not two,the son at best could a prince ,a king,but not a God equal to the father,
any so called gods are just tittle gods
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:25)
A. Yes, your son is a creation in the sense that your son is a creation of God as a part of creation.
B. Yes, your son was begotten/born,
Good, then you agree that one can be both created and begotten. Now apply that new knowledge of yours to Jesus.Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:25)
Your son is not God's offspring, the only begotten Son IS God's offspring. Adam was an offspring of the earth. Your son is Adam's offspring, not God's.
Luke says that Adam is the son of God. That makes my son also a child of God.Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:25)
The only begotten Son and Father with their Spirit were together the creator
This sounds alot like the mish-mash mumbo-jumbo the trinni's try to pass of as intelligent English. You can't mention THREE and then apply to them the SINGULAR word “Creator”.Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:25)
I came out from thee,
So it couldn't mean that Jesus came out from [THE PRESENCE] of his God since the next words are “thou didst send me”?Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:25)
The only begotten Son came out of the Father as an offspring before creation,
Close. The only begotten Son came forth FROM his Father as the FIRSTBORN of all creation.The way I put it is completely scriptural. The way YOU put it is not.
mike
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