Is jesus god the angel??

[Lightenup]

Karmarie,
Thanks for answering. You believe in the deity of Christ then. You also believe in the deity of His Father, correct?

[karmarie]

Correct Kathi. I believe in God the Father and in God the Son. But to me there is One true God, the Father, and it is to the Father, through the Son who I pray, and who I love with all my heart.

[Lightenup]

Karmarie,
Thanks again. So I am confused. If you believe in God the Father and in God the Son, is one true and one not true?

[karmarie]

Hi Kathi.

I would go with this;

“-Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. -“

(wikipedia on Monotheism)

[Lightenup]

Karmarie,
That doesn't answer the question. Is one true and one not true?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,16:34)

Pierre, So you deny the deity of Christ.  Explain what is meant in your view of the word 'deity.' Thanks, Kathi

Kathi

Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

this is my answer.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

So Pierre,
Are you saying that Jesus is not deity but acts as deity only because He acts as a spokesman for God like Moses did?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,18:05)

So Pierre, Are you saying that Jesus is not deity but acts as deity only because He acts as a spokesman for God like Moses did?

Kathi

what kind of god turn to the greater God and submit himself to him?

Pierre

[karmarie]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,13:38)

Karmarie, That doesn't answer the question.  Is one true and one not true?

Haha Kathi,

I think this answers that…

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And I also like this verse;

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

To me, God is the souce of ALL, and everything else comes after that.
But I do realise that the next after God is the Lord Jesus Christ. Then all else after.

Example
1 Corin 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

And I also see that when they asked Jesus how they should pray, Jesus said to pray to the Father (Our Father who art in Heaven).

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,15:56)

Here is a passage that says that the 'Angel' that wrestled with Jacob was Jehovah and below it is John Gill's comments about it: Hos 12:2-5 2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. 3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. 4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. NASU Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible Even the Lord God of hosts,…. The God Jacob had power over, the Angel he prevailed with, to whom he made supplication with weeping, and who spake with him and his in Bethel, is he whose name is Jehovah; who is the true and living God, the Lord of hosts and armies both in heaven and in earth; of all the angels in heaven, and the legions of them; and of the church militant, and all the saints, who are the good soldiers of Christ, his spiritual militia; and he is the Captain of the Lord's host, and of their salvation, and to whom all the numerous hosts of creatures, be they what they will, are subject: this is observed, to set off the greatness of the person Jacob wrestled with, and his wondrous grace, in condescending to be overpowered by him: the Lord is his memorial: or his name, Jehovah, which belongs to this angel, the Son of God, as to his divine Father; and which is expressive of his divine existence, of his eternity and immutability; this is his memorial, or the remembrancer of him; which puts his people in all ages in remembrance of him, what he is, what an infinite, almighty, and all sufficient Being he is; and he is always to be believed in, and trusted to, and to be served, adored, and worshipped. The Targum adds, to every generation and generation from: http://bible.cc/hosea/12-5.htm I would say that passage makes it clear that the 'angel' was called Jehovah.  Obviously Jacob wrestling with Jehovah was not a vision, Jacob's hip joint was put out of place.  Yet no man has seen God but they have seen the Son of God. Kathi

At least your honest in admitting that “an angel of THE LORD(Jehovah) is also God. While I disagree at least your not sidestepping or being deceptive with your beliefs and throwing the “God is beyond us” line to defend your belief.

I have a question though is this angel Jehovah as well?

18 After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven, with great authority; and the earth was lighted up from his glory.(Revelation 18:1)

2 And, look! the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the direction of the east, and his voice was like the voice of vast waters; and the earth itself shone because of his glory.(Ezekiel 43:2)

P.S. Turning trinitarian theology on it's head

[Lightenup]

BC&JW,
No those angels in Rev 18:1 and EZ 43:2 are not Jehovah the Son.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:32)

Mike, The new matter was new and didn't evolve or something like that.  It was created by God not begotten by God.

So this matter came from within God, since before it there was nothing BUT God.  And this matter was created by God but not by means of begetting, right?  

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:32)

Regarding 'begetting,'  I think you mean to say that your son was created by the method of reproduction.  Begotten means born, not conceived.

So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then?

1.  My son is a creation.
2.  My son was begotten.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:34)

Mike, I don't make it different. The men killed the body only, not the soul. Just like the verse said.

And this is true of Jesus and everyone else who has ever died, right?

So how again is HIS death different than anyone who died before him or since?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:57)

Mike, Many have scriptures, the Jews for example, and don't believe that the Messiah is the Son of God.

Kathi,

I won't argue this “nit-picky” point with you.  I know that the belief that Jesus is the Son OF God is the foundation on which Christ built his Church.  

This all started because you were quoting this man and that man, as if what THEY say takes precedent over what scriptures say.  So I was trying to tell you to start from a foundation of rock, not shifting sand.  The scriptures are a foundation of rock, for not one word of God will come back to Him without accomplishing His purpose.

And God's words say “Son OF God”, not “God THE Son”.  They tell of a Father/Son and Servant/God relationship between Jesus and Jehovah.  They tell of a God who is FROM everlasting, and of a Son whose ORIGIN was from ancient times.  They tell about worshipping only ONE, not TWO.

All I'm saying is for you to place these words on a higher pedestal than the words of the men who just happen to agree with your additions to the scriptures.

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:57)

BTW, you call me hillbilly again, I will take away your bandanna

   

peace,
mike

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,11:37)

BC&JW, No those angels in Rev 18:1 and EZ 43:2 are not Jehovah the Son.

How so? They both have the same glory apparently. Only Jehovah and Jesus share the same glory according to people who believe their both equally God.

P.S. Turning Trinitarian theology on it's head

[Lightenup]

BC&JW,
The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord. Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,20:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:57) Mike, Many have scriptures, the Jews for example, and don't believe that the Messiah is the Son of God. Kathi, I won't argue this “nit-picky” point with you.  I know that the belief that Jesus is the Son OF God is the foundation on which Christ built his Church.   This all started because you were quoting this man and that man, as if what THEY say takes precedent over what scriptures say.  So I was trying to tell you to start from a foundation of rock, not shifting sand.  The scriptures are a foundation of rock, for not one word of God will come back to Him without accomplishing His purpose. And God's words say “Son OF God”, not “God THE Son”.  They tell of a Father/Son and Servant/God relationship between Jesus and Jehovah.  They tell of a God who is FROM everlasting, and of a Son whose ORIGIN was from ancient times.  They tell about worshipping only ONE, not TWO. All I'm saying is for you to place these words on a higher pedestal than the words of the men who just happen to agree with your additions to the scriptures. Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:57) BTW, you call me hillbilly again, I will take away your bandanna     peace, mike

Good Mike,
We agree on the foundational truth that the church was built on.

BTW, I showed you the other persons teaching to prove that what I was saying was not unique and out of my own imagination. I showed you another person's commentary, a scholar at that, which is a Biblical concept to show others as a witness to our words. Why do you have problems with that? Don't you think that witnesses make the case stronger? Do you ignore the witness if you don't like what he said. You wouldn't ignore them if they said something like “it is grammatically possible to say the word was a god” In fact you would plaster it all over HN from one thread to another. Why isn't the words of scholars welcome here when you disagree? You have quoted scholars to make a point in many threads. You can belittle them if you want but they know a whole lot more about the original languages than you will probably ever know and have been walking with the Lord far longer than you have too.

God's word says 'Son of God' and that is true. It is also true that the Son of God is the only begotten God. Begotten God means God the Son. It is the same thing. I am not adding to the scriptures, I am understanding it differently than you. Same words bring different understanding and that is why Jesus talked about having eyes to see and ears to hear. Not everybody saw with eyes to see even when looking at the same thing. Like you see Jesus as created when you see 'firstborn' and I see Jesus as born and not created when I see 'firstborn.'

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,20:23)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:34) Mike, I don't make it different.  The men killed the body only, not the soul.  Just like the verse said. And this is true of Jesus and everyone else who has ever died, right? So how again is HIS death different than anyone who died before him or since? mike

Mike,
I didn't say that His death was different, you said that I was saying that. I said His body died and His Spirit lived on and that is what happens to all. Eventually the spirits will be judged as to whether they will be destroyed in hell or not. Jesus' spirit was from eternity and never was/is destroyed. That is the part of Him that was/is God the Son.

Also, 'from ancient times' can mean 'from eternity'.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,20:21)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:32) Mike, The new matter was new and didn't evolve or something like that.  It was created by God not begotten by God. So this matter came from within God, since before it there was nothing BUT God.  And this matter was created by God but not by means of begetting, right?   Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,22:32) Regarding 'begetting,'  I think you mean to say that your son was created by the method of reproduction.  Begotten means born, not conceived. So which of my statements do you claim to be untrue then? 1.  My son is a creation. 2.  My son was begotten. mike

Mike,
The matter didn't come from eternal substance within God. It came into existence by His will as new substance. Like I said, parts of God's substance did not evolve into trees and fish and people otherwise all would be parts of God and could be worshiped.

You son was not created out of merely your will but out of existing substance within you. In other words, you and your son's mom didn't just decide to have a son and say “let there be a son” and voila' there was a son. What God did was just decide to create and gave the command and there was new matter. They are two different senses of creation…one from existing substance and the other from a command. Only God can bring things into existence by commanding it so. Man can't do that. I don't care what a big boy you are.

So your son was created out of existing substance not by a command and brand new substance.

You can say that your son was created with that understanding and then 9 months later or so, he was begotten. He existed before he was begotten.

The Son of God was not new substance like the created angels. He was eternally existing substance for He has divine nature which cannot be anything less than eternal. This Son was begotten probably by command and existed beforehand pre-begotten, even from eternity because He is and always was divine.

Kathi

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,12:46)

BC&JW, The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord.  Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord.

29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si′nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.(Exodus 34:29-30)

Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he?

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