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Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,15:43) Pierre,
I am giving you scriptures and explaining to you my understanding. It is up to each of us to be the 'Berean.' Seek God for deeper understanding.God bless,
Kathi
Kathiso you are looking for suckers ?not bereans right ?
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2011,17:10) Pierre,
Christians all over the world accept the deity of Christ.
Kathiis that what you were trying to say ?
or it is something else ? go back and read your own quotes it does not line up with this remark
what i do not disagree with.
Pierre
Pierre,
Yes, that is what I am saying…the deity of Christ which means that the Son was eternal with the Father. Do you believe in the deity of Christ?Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,21:30) Mike, In Gen 18 and in the story of Jacob wrestling with God, this is not an incident of a vice regent. Scripture clearly identifies the one as Jehovah as is made clear in Hosea 4. You must use conjecture to say otherwise. Kathi
No Kathi,For it to NOT be a vice regent OF God is to say that men have not only seen, but wrestled with God Himself.
In one breath you say it is “Jehovah the Son”, meaning “Jesus”, who IS a vice regent of his God, always has been and always will be.
But in the next breath you say these incidents do NOT involve a vice regent of God.
And yes, the Hebrews have clearly identified certain vice regents of God as “Jehovah” or “God” in scripture. Why do you avoid this point?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,00:33) 4Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
He wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel
And there He spoke with us,5Even the LORD, the God of hosts,
The LORD is His name.
NASB
That doesn't say Jacob wrestled with the God of hosts, Kathi,In fact, it very clearly says he wrestled with an angel.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:41)
Dennison,
There is Jehovah, the unseen God the Father…and His image, Jehovah, the only begotten God from the Father, who was seen in the appearance of a man and taken for being an angel, but He is not a created angel.
Kathi,I know the scriptures you use to claim this…………but where is the scripture that actually clearly says what you claim?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:41)
Essentially He is deity, Jehovah, God of hosts and the image of His Father who is the the unseen Jehovah. The Father and Son are one in deity, but different persons.
So humans can wrestle with and even kill one person of the “Binity”, but can't even look upon the other? Yet they are “equal”? Oh, brother.I told you in a post you ignored that there is only a one in a “myriads upon myriads” chance that Jesus is the angel in any of your scriptures. How do you know it refers to only Jesus and not one of the other millions of angels?
Kathi, you know I love you, consider you to be sharp, and most usually enjoy a good conversation with you. But you have moved so far from the actual scriptural teachings and into your own wishes and imaginations here that this discussion isn't even worthy of further responses from me.
Have fun with D and Pierre…………….I'm outta here.
mike
Mike,
Quote For it to NOT be a vice regent OF God is to say that men have not only seen, but wrestled with God Himself. Now you are getting it Mike. Jesus is deity too!
BTW, in the Genesis account of Jacob, there is no mention of an angel. It says that Jacob wrestled with God and at first it mentions Him as a man, no angel mentioned. Since malak means messenger then why do you say he wrestled with an angel and not a messenger who is later identified as Jehovah, God of hosts. That is what the scripture says Mike. Jehovah can be seen when the Jehovah is His image.
The Genesis 32 account…see, no mention of an angel:
24Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” 31Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh. 32Therefore, to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh, because he touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew of the hip.
So either this God is a man, or this person appeared as a man and through the course of the night, Jacob became convinced that he was wrestling God who must be the Son because the Son is the deity that can be seen. Jacob said that he had seen God face to face.
Also, read Hosea without verse numbers and you can see that it does identify the messenger/malak with Jehovah, the God of hosts.
Yes, he wrestled with the messenger and prevailed; he wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel and there He spoke with us, even the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD is His name.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,20:59) Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:41)
Dennison,
There is Jehovah, the unseen God the Father…and His image, Jehovah, the only begotten God from the Father, who was seen in the appearance of a man and taken for being an angel, but He is not a created angel.
Kathi,I know the scriptures you use to claim this…………but where is the scripture that actually clearly says what you claim?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,12:41)
Essentially He is deity, Jehovah, God of hosts and the image of His Father who is the the unseen Jehovah. The Father and Son are one in deity, but different persons.
So humans can wrestle with and even kill one person of the “Binity”, but can't even look upon the other? Yet they are “equal”? Oh, brother.I told you in a post you ignored that there is only a one in a “myriads upon myriads” chance that Jesus is the angel in any of your scriptures. How do you know it refers to only Jesus and not one of the other millions of angels?
Kathi, you know I love you, consider you to be sharp, and most usually enjoy a good conversation with you. But you have moved so far from the actual scriptural teachings and into your own wishes and imaginations here that this discussion isn't even worthy of further responses from me.
Have fun with D and Pierre…………….I'm outta here.
mike
Mike,
I can find many who teach the same thing so how is it that it is my imagination and wishes?Like I said to you, the foundation of which we view scriptures through is different. I view the scriptures through the foundation of the church…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, begotten, not created. Your view is that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, not begotten but created.
That is why we butt heads on these things. It really is no purpose to try to convince you. I'm just trying to help you question your opinion in hopes that you will surrender your thoughts and let Jehovah reveal His Son to you.
BTW, it is the flesh of God, the Son that dies, not God the Son who pre-existed the flesh. You never do seem to comment on that.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:17) The Genesis 32 account…see, no mention of an angel:
Hosea confirms it WAS an angel, and Manoah, knowing he had seen an angel, said he had seen “God”.Mike,
Hosea said 'malak' and you have said that 'malak' means messenger all the time. What Hosea confirms is that the one wrestling with Jacob was Jehovah, God of hosts. Manoah saw the Son also but I don't think that He is specifically identified as Jehovah as in Hosea and Gen. 18.I thought you were out of here?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:29)
Mike,
I can find many who teach the same thing so how is it that it is my imagination and wishes?
And when you find a SCRIPTURE that actually teaches it, then you have a rock foundation to build on.Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:29)
I view the scriptures through the foundation of the church
Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves.Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:29)
Your view is that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, not begotten but created.
Wrong. I believe the scriptures that say Jesus was begotten as much as I believe the ones that say he is a part of the creation of God. You seem to insist that it's “one or the other”, but consider this:My son Dakota is the only CREATION of God who was BEGOTTEN by me. My beloved son was created through the method of begetting, making him both created and begotten. Much like his Lord, Jesus Christ.
It isn't a matter of “either/or” as you suspect, so I suggest you start believing ALL the scriptures, and not just the ones that you think further your “Binity” doctrine.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:29)
BTW, it is the flesh of God, the Son that dies, not God the Son who pre-existed the flesh. You never do seem to comment on that. We've actually discussed it at some length. Remember me telling you that Jesus died exactly the same way all men before him had died? Remember me telling you if Jesus was eternal because his spirit lived on then all men are eternal for the same reason? Jesus tasted death just as all men taste death, Kathi.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,20:48) Mike,
Hosea said 'malak' and you have said that 'malak' means messenger all the time. What Hosea confirms is that the one wrestling with Jacob was Jehovah, God of hosts. Manoah saw the Son also but I don't think that He is specifically identified as Jehovah as in Hosea and Gen. 18.
Kathi,When you find one ounce of proof for any of this stuff you're imagining, let me know okay?
mike
Mike,
Here is the rock that the church is built on Mike…the truth of who Jesus is. This truth caused Him to be crucified. Scriptures are the witness to the foundation but aren't the foundation…it is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matt 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
More later…
KathiMike,
So you say that the Son was created and then begotten, or created/begotten as the same thing? Your son was 'created' in a sense of being created out of existing matter…a sperm and an ovum. The creation of heaven and earth was by the will of God…by wisdom, the word of God not by existing matter, all new matter otherwise matter would be God also. Matter is a creation, new stuff, not part of God, eternal stuff. The Son was not created out of new stuff…He was not created at all, He was merely brought forth as the Son from within the Father. He is deity and is eternal. Deity in it's true sense must be eternal otherwise it is not deity at all.Psalms 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.Prov 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Mike, if part of God became the heavens and the earth then we can worship the creation too but the Bible is clear that we are not to worship the creation but the creator. You think that the creation is the creator if it was eternally a part of God.
More to come…
KathiMike,
About death, the soul is not killed by man…
Matt 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you see how the body is said to be killed but not the soul. Is that not clear that the soul is not dead along with the body?
Ok, I'm caught up.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:19) Scriptures are the witness to the foundation but aren't the foundation…it is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
What's this? A diversion?
Christ is the “cornerstone”. Most people believe from this scripture that Peter himself is “the rock”, since Jesus gave him this name that MEANS “rock”, and since Jesus was directing his comment to Peter at the time.
The JW's believe that all of the Apostles are the “foundation”.
I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church.
Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:53)
Matter is a creation, new stuff, not part of God, eternal stuff.
And where did it originally come from?Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2011,21:53)
So you say that the Son was created and then begotten, or created/begotten as the same thing?
I say that my son was created by the method of begetting. Angels were not created by this particular method, while Jesus was.Mike,
Quote I personally believe that Jesus is saying the KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF that he is truly the Son of the Living God is the foundation of the church. Think about that, Kathi. Believing that Jesus is the Son OF God, not GOD THE SON, is the foundation his church is built on.
So now you believe that the foundation is believing that Jesus is the Son of God when just a post ago you said it was the scriptures themselves that were the foundation of the church, here:
Quote Find a rock foundation Kathi. There is only one – the actual scriptures themselves. So which one is it Mike, scriptures that bear witness to Christ or Christ, the Son of God and the true meaning of that?
Kathi
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