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Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,21:26) Pierre,
Yes it's there, I even made it bold for you. I didn't write the scripture. Observe without a bias and you might see it.Kathi
Kathiso God talks to Judah in verse 2,right in chp 11-12 God talks about the nation Of Israel,right,
in verse 1 of chap 12 God talks about Ephraim,and Assyria,and Egypt ,right,
in verse 2 ,God bring charges against Judah and the Nation of Israel,right.
in verse 5 God mention that it is him who will do that,right,
now tell me were verses 3 and 4 comes in what talks about Jacob the man not the nation,
tell me why would he punish a dead man??who was faithful to his God ?
Pierre
Pierre,
This should help you. Read the commentary on Hosea 12:http://gill.biblecommenter.com/hosea/12.htm
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,21:56) Pierre,
This should help you. Read the commentary on Hosea 12:http://gill.biblecommenter.com/hosea/12.htm
Kathi
Kathii understand that, that are the views of that person ,and I respect that as that,
God can make me see it differently ,and so it is ,
Pierre
To all,
Quote Hebrews 1(Young's Litteral Translation) 6and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
If All the messengers of God bowed before him then how can he be one of them?
Note: There is an answer to this one. I just want to see if we are on the same page in methods of interpretating scripture.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,18:21) the one who was wrestling with Jacob was identified as the Lord God Almighty.
Kathi,It was fairly common according to scriptures to refer to an angel OF Jehovah as Jehovah. The Hebrews referred to a vice regent OF God as “God”. When Manoah realized he was talking to an ANGEL OF GOD, he feared for his life saying, “We have seen God”.
See? He KNEW it was a messenger of God and not God Himself, but still said he had seen “God”.
This is the same with Jacob. He realized he wrestled with a vice regent OF Jehovah, and called that vice regent “Jehovah”. And I don't know how you came to the conclusion that it must have been Jesus he wrestled with, considering God has MANY vice regents.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,20:22) Kathi NO and No ,what you try or what you see is not there
I agree Pierre.Kathi seems to often apply what she WANTS the scriptures to say to the scriptures, thereby confirming for herself that they say what she WANTS them to say.
But to claim that Jesus is also named “Jehovah” from the verses she listed is proof of nothing more than an overactive imagination and wishful thinking, for the scripture surely doesn't CLEARLY say anything of the sort.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2011,23:09) To all, Quote Hebrews 1(Young's Litteral Translation) 6and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
If All the messengers of God bowed before him then how can he be one of them?
Note: There is an answer to this one. I just want to see if we are on the same page in methods of interpretating scripture.
Kerwin,All the nation of Israel bowed before King David. Does that mean he wasn't a human being?
mike
Hi Kathi,
Immediately after making my posts here, I checked out the “Bodies” thread, and noticed this scripture that Wm had posted:
Zechariah 3
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”Who was “YHWH” who said “May YHWH rebuke you, Satan!”? We know it was the ANGEL OF YHWH who said these words, yet Zechariah called this angel OF God “YHWH”.
To me, that means the Hebrews referred to vice regents of God as “God”. To you, it means that Jesus is “Jehovah Jr.”, and therefore must have been the angel of Jehovah in this verse also.
But think it out, how can “Jehovah” be an angel OF Jehovah? Is he an angel of Himself?
And if Jesus is “Jehovah the Son”, then how do we know this “angel of Jehovah” wasn't JESUS' messenger here?
We sure get into some pretty murky waters when we try to force-fit the scriptures around our own wishes.
Anyway, I take little instances like this, where I'm “lead” to other scriptures that support me, as being lead by Spirit. You must admit that it's interesting that right after answering your point here, up pops another scripture out of a totally unrelated thread that supports what I was saying to you.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2011,10:24) Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,20:22) Kathi NO and No ,what you try or what you see is not there
I agree Pierre.Kathi seems to often apply what she WANTS the scriptures to say to the scriptures, thereby confirming for herself that they say what she WANTS them to say.
But to claim that Jesus is also named “Jehovah” from the verses she listed is proof of nothing more than an overactive imagination and wishful thinking, for the scripture surely doesn't CLEARLY say anything of the sort.
mike
Michael,
Ya know what…if this is my own crazy imagination, then why am I saying the same thing as John Gill? Here is something about John Gill:John Gill was born on Nov.23 1697 of Godly, Particular Baptist, parents, Edward and Elisabeth Gill. He proved himself to be an extremely able student, outstripping even his schoolmaster. By the age of twelve years he was proficient in Latin and Greek and was entering into the study of Hebrew. He was a scholar of tremendous ability, but received little formal education, partly because he, nor his parents, could submit to the religious programs of the Anglican dominated education establishments. However, he was awarded a D.D by Marischal College, Aberdeen, in 1748, which he never flaunted and of which he said, “I neither sought it, nor thought it, nor bought it.”
Dr. Gill read most extensively and was, probably, the most acclaimed Hebraist ever to adorn the Christian scene. However, he was a retiring peaceable man, but would enter into controversy when 'The Cause of God and Truth' was assailed and, in fact, wrote a definitive work under that very title. His best writing is, probably, his 'Exposition of the Song of Solomon'. However, his greatest work is certainly the monumental exposition of the Old and New Testament, that is, dealing with every single word in the Bible. No other Christian writer has ever succeeded in such a task, not Calvin, nor Henry, in fact no one before and no one since. The last great writing of this venerable scholar was his work 'A Body of Divinity', published in 1769 just two years just prior to his death; this is probably the most complete Body of Divinity ever written; it is packed with doctrine and unpolluted with philosophy. The list of Gill's writing and attainments is too long for this brief resume. Dr. John Gill, in addition to meeting regularly with many Christians and preaching several times each week, wrote over ten million words, with an ordinary pen, and did his own proof reading. Just think about it!
Augustus Toplady wrote, “If any one man can be supposed to have trod the whole circle of human learning, it was Dr. Gill. ― It would, perhaps, try the constitutions of half the literati in England only to read, with care and attention, the whole of what Gill wrote.”
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/gill/gillindex.htm
Mike, take a few minutes out of your day and read this commentary on Hosea 12 and learn something about who Jacob wrestled with.
Notice, I DIDN'T write this. This IS NOT from my imagination. When I ask God to give me understanding and then I come across the same understanding in a notable respected scholar…I take that as confirmation from God.
http://gill.biblecommenter.com/hosea/12.htm
So please STOP with this belittling of me as having this overreactive imagination when I can direct you to a scholar such as Gill that confirms what I am understanding.
It is not nice.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,10:45) Michael,
Ya know what…if this is my own crazy imagination, then why am I saying the same thing as John Gill?
Do you think YOU'RE the only one with an imagination?Kathi, if scripture doesn't say it, then don't claim it. You could show the writings of 1000 Gills and if scripture doesn't say it, it still wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.
And you didn't even address my points except to point me to Gill.
mike
Mike,
I show scripture like Hosea 12. It does clearly say that the one that wrestled with Jacob is named Jehovah plus I give you a scholar that sees that clearly also. So, don't tell me about scripture not saying it. You and I are reading the scripture through two different foundations. I am reading it through the foundation that the church is built on…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, not created but begotten. You seem to be reading the scriptures through a different foundation than scripture…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, not begotten but created. Big difference and that is probably the 'crux of the matter.'
Kathi
Kerwin,
When God again brings his Son into the world…The Son was MAN… not an Angel. He was no longer an Angel (Messenger) he was/is Now King – and a King is not a Messenger!
At this time, Jesus is no longer the deliverer of the testament or revelation.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,10:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2011,10:24) Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,20:22) Kathi NO and No ,what you try or what you see is not there
I agree Pierre.Kathi seems to often apply what she WANTS the scriptures to say to the scriptures, thereby confirming for herself that they say what she WANTS them to say.
But to claim that Jesus is also named “Jehovah” from the verses she listed is proof of nothing more than an overactive imagination and wishful thinking, for the scripture surely doesn't CLEARLY say anything of the sort.
mike
Michael,
Ya know what…if this is my own crazy imagination, then why am I saying the same thing as John Gill? Here is something about John Gill:John Gill was born on Nov.23 1697 of Godly, Particular Baptist, parents, Edward and Elisabeth Gill. He proved himself to be an extremely able student, outstripping even his schoolmaster. By the age of twelve years he was proficient in Latin and Greek and was entering into the study of Hebrew. He was a scholar of tremendous ability, but received little formal education, partly because he, nor his parents, could submit to the religious programs of the Anglican dominated education establishments. However, he was awarded a D.D by Marischal College, Aberdeen, in 1748, which he never flaunted and of which he said, “I neither sought it, nor thought it, nor bought it.”
Dr. Gill read most extensively and was, probably, the most acclaimed Hebraist ever to adorn the Christian scene. However, he was a retiring peaceable man, but would enter into controversy when 'The Cause of God and Truth' was assailed and, in fact, wrote a definitive work under that very title. His best writing is, probably, his 'Exposition of the Song of Solomon'. However, his greatest work is certainly the monumental exposition of the Old and New Testament, that is, dealing with every single word in the Bible. No other Christian writer has ever succeeded in such a task, not Calvin, nor Henry, in fact no one before and no one since. The last great writing of this venerable scholar was his work 'A Body of Divinity', published in 1769 just two years just prior to his death; this is probably the most complete Body of Divinity ever written; it is packed with doctrine and unpolluted with philosophy. The list of Gill's writing and attainments is too long for this brief resume. Dr. John Gill, in addition to meeting regularly with many Christians and preaching several times each week, wrote over ten million words, with an ordinary pen, and did his own proof reading. Just think about it!
Augustus Toplady wrote, “If any one man can be supposed to have trod the whole circle of human learning, it was Dr. Gill. ― It would, perhaps, try the constitutions of half the literati in England only to read, with care and attention, the whole of what Gill wrote.”
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/gill/gillindex.htm
Mike, take a few minutes out of your day and read this commentary on Hosea 12 and learn something about who Jacob wrestled with.
Notice, I DIDN'T write this. This IS NOT from my imagination. When I ask God to give me understanding and then I come across the same understanding in a notable respected scholar…I take that as confirmation from God.
http://gill.biblecommenter.com/hosea/12.htm
So please STOP with this belittling of me as having this overreactive imagination when I can direct you to a scholar such as Gill that confirms what I am understanding.
It is not nice.
Kathi
kathiif you feel that this man J, Gill`;is in line with your kind of views then you have given more credit to that man than scriptures,
not all of us can do that or will follow men that way,
so we all will stand in judgement before God,and at that time you will not say it was Mr J Gill who influenced me.or is it ?
I will stick to scriptures the word of God.Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2011,11:34) Mike,
I show scripture like Hosea 12. It does clearly say that the one that wrestled with Jacob is named Jehovah plus I give you a scholar that sees that clearly also. So, don't tell me about scripture not saying it. You and I are reading the scripture through two different foundations. I am reading it through the foundation that the church is built on…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, not created but begotten. You seem to be reading the scriptures through a different foundation than scripture…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, not begotten but created. Big difference and that is probably the 'crux of the matter.'Kathi
Kathiwere is it clearly said that Jacob wresled with Jehovah
Hos 11:12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
the house of Israel with deceit.
And Judah is unruly against God,
even against the faithful Holy One.
Hos 12:1 Ephraim feeds on the wind;
he pursues the east wind all day
and multiplies lies and violence.
He makes a treaty with Assyria
and sends olive oil to Egypt.
Hos 12:2 The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
Hos 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
Hos 12:4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—
Hos 12:5 the LORD God Almighty,
the LORD is his name of renown!
Hos 12:6 But you must return to your God;
maintain love and justice,
and wait for your God always..”now if you apply verse5 and 6 to verse 3 and 4 then why does Jacob the man, has to return to God and wait ? but he is dead for century s no ?
Hos 12:7 The merchant uses dishonest scales;
he loves to defraud.
Hos 12:8 Ephraim boasts,
“I am very rich; I have become wealthy.
With all my wealth they will not find in me
any iniquity or sinQuote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,11:34) Mike,
I show scripture like Hosea 12. It does clearly say that the one that wrestled with Jacob is named Jehovah plus I give you a scholar that sees that clearly also.
No Kathi,What it CLEARLY shows is that the Hebrews referred to vice regents OF God as “God” or “Jehovah” – because the text indicates that they were fully aware it was an angel OF God and not God Himself.
And while there is one chance in “myriads upon myriads” that the angel in question in your verse was Jesus, there is no conclusive proof that this is the case. So to claim it is the case is to let your own wishes add to the scriptures for you.
mike
Pierre,
I don't agree with Gill on every point but on the Son being begotten and not created, and also eternal within the Father, then begotten before the ages, I do agree with that. Also that the Son was called Jehovah in the OT and appeared to man as Jehovah in the OT. The Father and Son are both called Jehovah. I don't agree that anyone else is called Jehovah. If the one referred to in the OT as an angel and is named Jehovah, I agree with Gill that He is the Son of God…not the Father and not a created angel. The Father Jehovah has not been seen by man.Kathi
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