Is jesus god the angel??

[kerwin]

Quote (karmarie @ April 20 2011,17:25)

Kathi, You do realise we shouldnt even be speaking here? But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. 1 Timothy 2:12 let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly. 1 Corin 14:35 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. 1 Tim 2:11 Hmmm.

Karmarie,

Paul is speaking of in the Church service as it is a Jewish tradition that women do not read scripture in the synagoge.   From what Paul writes the same tradition was continued in the Christian services.   From what he writes the same principle seems to have been extended to any speaking of the Word of God, such as teaching or prophecy.  A tradition that we should discuss elsewhere.

This site does not qualify as a worship service.  It would be more like when Priscilla (a woman) and Aquila taught Apolos the update to his doctrine that came about with the self sacrifice, resurrection, and ascention of Jesus.  

Irene is correct that the husband is to be the one in authority in a marriage just like your supervisor on the job.  A wise manager listens to good advise from those he manages and delegates tasks to those best equiped to do them.

[Lightenup]

Here is a passage that says that the 'Angel' that wrestled with Jacob was Jehovah and below it is John Gill's comments about it:

Hos 12:2-5
2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us,
5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name.
NASU

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Even the Lord God of hosts,…. The God Jacob had power over, the Angel he prevailed with, to whom he made supplication with weeping, and who spake with him and his in Bethel, is he whose name is Jehovah; who is the true and living God, the Lord of hosts and armies both in heaven and in earth; of all the angels in heaven, and the legions of them; and of the church militant, and all the saints, who are the good soldiers of Christ, his spiritual militia; and he is the Captain of the Lord's host, and of their salvation, and to whom all the numerous hosts of creatures, be they what they will, are subject: this is observed, to set off the greatness of the person Jacob wrestled with, and his wondrous grace, in condescending to be overpowered by him:

the Lord is his memorial: or his name, Jehovah, which belongs to this angel, the Son of God, as to his divine Father; and which is expressive of his divine existence, of his eternity and immutability; this is his memorial, or the remembrancer of him; which puts his people in all ages in remembrance of him, what he is, what an infinite, almighty, and all sufficient Being he is; and he is always to be believed in, and trusted to, and to be served, adored, and worshipped. The Targum adds, to every generation and generation

from: http://bible.cc/hosea/12-5.htm

I would say that passage makes it clear that the 'angel' was called Jehovah. Obviously Jacob wrestling with Jehovah was not a vision, Jacob's hip joint was put out of place. Yet no man has seen God but they have seen the Son of God.

Kathi

[karmarie]

Hi Kathi.
Thanks.

————————————

Irene and Kerwin.

“We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.”
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.”
Romans 8:28; 1st Corinthians 11:3;

The Church Paul was speaking of, the word comes from the Greek word ekklesia

1577 ekklēsía
(from 1537 /ek, “out from and to” and 2564 /kaléō, “to call”) – properly, people called out from the world and to God,
(the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

Oopps, off topic….

[Istari]

Mike,
Since when did I stop talking to/with you?
I talk to whom I will when I will as I am moved to!

And when did you offer up Luke 3:38?
Perhaps like WJ who put words [back] to me as if I said them although he was in fact referring to your debate – why – yes, I do know why? You also refer to indirect or fictitious references. If you had asked me several times I would have answered – else … If and only if, there was a lapse in the thread flow that I missed, then I apologise … For there is nothing the cannot be answer ed concerning this issue: actually – what exactly was your question?

Luke 3:38, states that:
Seth is the Father of Enosh
Adam is the Father of Seth
God is the Father of Adam

Therefore Adam is the first Human Son of God born Sinless in the flesh.
And later, Jesus is the Second Human Son of God born in the Flesh

But the first Son sinned and fell from pure Sonship
Jesus took up the baton and became Only Son of God in the flesh.

Adam could sin and did under test.
Jesus could sin but didn't under test

Adams body saw corruption and will not be restored
Jesus' body saw no corruption and was restored – raised up (The Spiritual rebirth – begotten) no more possible to see corruption (decay/die) therefore his body in the flesh is permanent.

the Spirit was Always Permanent as to dying but not to destruction so how could Pauls point concerning Incorruptible Body possibly mean Spirit Body? Not even a hint of a link between the two – it is as you say that those who have a need needs read it that way – to their own detrement of wisdom and truth!

The same issue of 'Firstborn' and 'First Born' are replicated in 'Begotten' (Raised to Senior position by Rank ) and 'Begotten' (Born to a Father).

Your interpretation would mean that Jesus was 'Literally Born from God' and would not mean 'First created' – created is not begotten, in other words.

If Jesus is therefore literally 'God from God' then you step half way into the Trinitarian camp where they variously say he was AND he wasn't Born/Created from God/the Father as the opponent changes.
I asked, and don't believe I have yet had an answer:
What was the Father BEFORE Jesus was BORN to him then?
He… Was not a Father until he Begot a Son … So what was He?
These are not questions to you – but unsatisfactory or lack of received responses.

Kathi started then down the road of God had Jesus inside him and then gave birth so Jesus always existed but part of the time he was inside God (And a mother is a mother at conception: I've yet to here anyone qualify that idea : I hear they say 'expectant Mother' and 'Mother-to-be'. Is a wife a wife before she is married (… Yes yes…stick to the point) is a husband a husband before he is married?
WJ says then that Jesus was an 'eternal son' – not so. This is a timeline issue: Jesus IS NOW INDEED AN/THE ETERNAL SON having become so much greater than the Angels and has inherited a name that is so much greater than theirs because he is eternally BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD – an 'I AM' (One who is and always Will be)

My question is: What was the purpose for Adam that Jesus fulfilled in his place?

So, what exactly was the issue about Luke 3:38, again?

[Lightenup]

Istari

you said in the above post:

Quote

Kathi started then down the road of God had Jesus inside him and then gave birth so Jesus always existed but part of the time he was inside God (And a mother is a mother at conception: I've yet to here anyone qualify that idea : I hear they say 'expectant Mother' and 'Mother-to-be'.

I have started a poll to help you see when others consider the beginning point of when a man becomes a father.

here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3849

I don't think this is a hard question.
Kathi

[Istari]

Hi Kathi,

Thanks for that. It needs addressing so well done for starting it off.

I don't think a poll is correct for this as many people will not have really thought about it correctly when they first vote. During the discussion to follow they may well wish they'd thought more deeply before voting.

[Lightenup]

You welcome Istari,
I hope it clears this up. I do think that you might wish that you thought more deeply before voting

Kathi

[Istari]

Thank you Kathi,

My mind was clear because I had already thought of it when it first came up, the first time, second, third and this time.
I meant those who are earthbound ensconched in everyday common thoughts on matters.

They may say, 'Of course….x y z' because that is their common everyday way of speaking.

'Mom' is commonly used for … Ha ha ha … Sorry, the TV announcer just said '…. Mom to be…' just as I was writing this : tv programme called 'Misbehaving Moms to be'…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,02:18)

Luke 3:38, states that: Seth is the Father of Enosh Adam is the Father of Seth God is the Father of Adam Therefore Adam is the first Human Son of God born Sinless in the flesh. And later, Jesus is the Second Human Son of God born in the Flesh But the first Son sinned and fell from pure Sonship

Hi Istari,

I see I'll never “win” with you.    First, you said a son of God is one who hears and obeys the word of God.  So I pointed out John the Baptist.  Then you included “sinless”, even though you have yet to produce any scripture saying this.  Then I brought up the fact that Adam, AFTER HE HAD SINNED, was apparently still a “son of God” when he beget Seth, according to Luke 3:38.

And now I see you've added the phrase “pure Sonship”, whatever that means.    So I give up.

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,02:18)

Your interpretation would mean that Jesus was 'Literally Born from God' and would not mean 'First created' – created is not begotten, in other words.

When I begot my own son, with the help of God I CREATED a new life where there was none before.

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,02:18)

If Jesus is therefore literally 'God from God' then you step half way into the Trinitarian camp

And you have “warned me” about this “misstep” many times in pm's.  It is my disagreement with you on this subject which caused you to “unbeget me” as a brother and change from my friend to an enemy whose greatest desire is to ridicule and insult me.  

But think back to what I've always told you ever since you started trying to teach me the “truth” of this matter:  “JA, I can't base my understanding of the scriptures on whether or not it will give the Trinni's an edge.”  And I think it's sad that keeping the Trinni's from “gaining a point” is what keeps you so determined on this issue.

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,02:18)

I asked, and don't believe I have yet had an answer: What was the Father BEFORE Jesus was BORN to him then?

I have seen you ask Kathi this question, but not me.  But the answer is:  Before Jesus was born/created, God was alone and not yet a Father.

(Btw, thanks for the “brief and to the point” answer about Luke.   )

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,17:06)

Thank you Kathi, My mind was clear because I had already thought of it when it first came up, the first time, second, third and this time. I meant those who are earthbound ensconched in everyday common thoughts on matters. They may say, 'Of course….x y z' because that is their common everyday way of speaking. 'Mom' is commonly used for … Ha ha ha … Sorry, the TV announcer just said '…. Mom to be…' just as I was writing this : tv programme called 'Misbehaving Moms to be'…

Actually Istari, we have never talked about it as 'biological father' or 'biological mother' before. I think that threw you and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here so maybe you should just take it…otherwise you need a biology lesson.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,22:56)

Here is a passage that says that the 'Angel' that wrestled with Jacob was Jehovah and below it is John Gill's comments about it: Hos 12:2-5 2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. 3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. 4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. NASU Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible Even the Lord God of hosts,…. The God Jacob had power over, the Angel he prevailed with, to whom he made supplication with weeping, and who spake with him and his in Bethel, is he whose name is Jehovah; who is the true and living God, the Lord of hosts and armies both in heaven and in earth; of all the angels in heaven, and the legions of them; and of the church militant, and all the saints, who are the good soldiers of Christ, his spiritual militia; and he is the Captain of the Lord's host, and of their salvation, and to whom all the numerous hosts of creatures, be they what they will, are subject: this is observed, to set off the greatness of the person Jacob wrestled with, and his wondrous grace, in condescending to be overpowered by him: the Lord is his memorial: or his name, Jehovah, which belongs to this angel, the Son of God, as to his divine Father; and which is expressive of his divine existence, of his eternity and immutability; this is his memorial, or the remembrancer of him; which puts his people in all ages in remembrance of him, what he is, what an infinite, almighty, and all sufficient Being he is; and he is always to be believed in, and trusted to, and to be served, adored, and worshipped. The Targum adds, to every generation and generation from: http://bible.cc/hosea/12-5.htm I would say that passage makes it clear that the 'angel' was called Jehovah.  Obviously Jacob wrestling with Jehovah was not a vision, Jacob's hip joint was put out of place.  Yet no man has seen God but they have seen the Son of God. Kathi

Kathi

it does not say that in those verses ,you are miss interpreting scriptures

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
What doesn't it say in those verses?
Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,22:29)

Pierre, What doesn't it say in those verses? Kathi

Kathi

Hos 11:12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
the house of Israel with deceit.
And Judah is unruly against God,
even against the faithful Holy One.
Hos 12:1 Ephraim feeds on the wind;
he pursues the east wind all day
and multiplies lies and violence.
He makes a treaty with Assyria
and sends olive oil to Egypt.
Hos 12:2 The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
Hos 12:5 the LORD God Almighty,
the LORD is his name of renown!
Hos 12:6 But you must return to your God;
maintain love and justice,
and wait for your God always.

read the scriptures above and see what they talking about and who and why ,

now can you see that Jacob /Israel the man has nothing to do with what transpired in those verses and so it is there for some other reason.

Hos 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
Hos 12:4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—

Pierre

[Baker]

Karmarie!  
Rom 8:28   And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.  

What does this Scripture have to do with

1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

And it is not talking about the Church in this Scripture. The Greek translation is not for that Scripture…. 

Peace and love Irene

[karmarie]

Irene, those verses mean something to me and some things I have been through, but its sort of off topic.

[Baker]

Quote (karmarie @ April 22 2011,21:32)

Irene, those verses mean something to me and some things I have been through, but its sort of off topic.

karmarie! Please explain at least that much the next time OK….

Peace and Love Irene

[karmarie]

OK Irene, I just went off topic for some reason. Ill try not to! Maybe someone could start a thread on it. (on marriage and if a women should speak/teach etc) I cant right now.

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
If you look at the Hebrew you will see how v. 4 needs v.5 to follow it because it completes the thought of v. 4. Just read it how it is and know that the one who was wrestling with Jacob was identified as the Lord God Almighty. I will not go around and around with your switching around the verses because it doesn't fit your views. Sorry.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,18:21)

Pierre, If you look at the Hebrew you will see how v. 4 needs v.5 to follow it because it completes the thought of v. 4.  Just read it how it is and know that the one who was wrestling with Jacob was identified as the Lord God Almighty.  I will not go around and around with your switching around the verses because it doesn't fit your views.  Sorry. Kathi

Kathi

NO and No ,what you try or what you see is not there,

read chap 11 and see any way if you cannot see it what can I do i am only a man,

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Yes it's there, I even made it bold for you. I didn't write the scripture. Observe without a bias and you might see it.

Kathi

[Author]

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