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Keith,
Out of interest only:
Can you name three things that 'Jesus the God' did?Be as creative as you like but reference from Scriptures, please.
WJ,
A God becomes NOT A God – then becomes A God again?
Can A God become anything other than A God…?
Can The One True God become something less than the One True God?
Is The Son that One True God?
Is The Father that One True God?
Is The Holy Spirit of the Father that One True God?If All three are that One True God then when Jesus became 'a little lower than the Angels' how was he still The One True God who did not share in all that the other two One True God knew: in fact, that ONLY the Father knew and not the Holy Spirit?
And lastly if Jesus is that One True God then how is he given Power and Authority 'for a little while' (Only) then hands it BACK TO THE FATHER? (And Not even the Holy Spirit either)
Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:18) Keith,
Out of interest only:
Can you name three things that 'Jesus the God' did?Be as creative as you like but reference from Scriptures, please.
And there are also many other things which “Jesus did“, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. Joihn 21:25
WJ
Hi JA
Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) WJ, A God becomes NOT A God – then becomes A God again?
True!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) Can A God become anything other than A God…?
I don't know because I only believe in One God. But it seems if one believes in other gods then at some point that other god became a god like maybe when he was born or when he becomes a Mighty one. Isn't that what you believe? That gods are born, created or made?Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) Can The One True God become something less than the One True God?
Nope!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) Is The Son that One True God?
Yep!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) Is The Father that One True God?
Yep!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) Is The Holy Spirit of the Father that One True God?
Yep!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) If All three are that One True God then when Jesus became 'a little lower than the Angels' how was he still The One True God who did not share in all that the other two One True God knew: in fact, that ONLY the Father knew and not the Holy Spirit?
According to the flesh Jesus was a man but according to the Spirit he is God or the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. They are “ONE”. Matt 28:19Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,14:34) And lastly if Jesus is that One True God then how is he given Power and Authority 'for a little while' (Only) then hands it BACK TO THE FATHER? (And Not even the Holy Spirit either)
Phil 2:4-6 – 2 Cor 8:9Can God live in a flesh temple or tabernacle and appear as a man?
WJ
WJ,
You have answered with excellence according to your belief.They were [interesting] to say the least.
As for your question: God does not live in a flesh body nor does God appear as Man.
There is no Scripture verse to say that God lives in a body of flesh nor appears as man.
Proving a negative is impossible: it is not possible to prove what DID NOT HAPPEN – we can INFER it from it's absence but not PROVE IT, therefore such questions are invalid!Oh, WJ, saying 'there are many other things that Jesus did' is not naming three things that Jesus the God did?
And in any case … My mistake, I meant – Before he came as Man.
Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,16:11) WJ,
You have answered with excellence according to your belief.They were [interesting] to say the least.
Thanks!Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,16:11) As for your question: God does not live in a flesh body nor does God appear as Man.
There is no Scripture verse to say that God lives in a body of flesh nor appears as man.
Really?Well not taking into consideration that the Patriarchs saw God and he appeared as a man, lets just stick to the NT.
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them“; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Cor 6:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God (the Spirit of Christ Rom 8:9) dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 16:19
The Temple of God is his home or dwelling place. So if God can dwell in and walk in our bodies as his very own, then who is to say God cannot have his own human body?
Hello Jesus! Phil 2:6-8 – Col 2:9
Who is living in you JA, The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
Is that God living in you or God and a little god?
WJ
Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,16:31) Oh, WJ, saying 'there are many other things that Jesus did' is not naming three things that Jesus the God did? And in any case … My mistake, I meant – Before he came as Man.
1. He created all things for he was part of the “us” that made man in his image.2. He followed the children of Israel as the Rock.
3. He appeared to the three Hebrew Children in the flaming furnace and delivered them.
How can it be possible for Jesus to do so many things in 3 1/2 years on this earth so that if they were written down then the world could not contain the books?
I submit that John was speaking of Jesus the creator, the Word that was with God and was God.
Ha Ha! John 21:25 is another Jesus is God text because no mere man could do so much in one lifetime on this earth unless he were God in the flesh.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,08:35) Karmarie, This is an interesting perspective:
http://www.divorcehope.com/womenteachinginchurchministry.htm
Hi kathi.I know theres all different perspectives on that. But I found through trail and error, that I need to listen to the person who I listen to more than speak. When I try and find out all the answers myself, and to disagree…it doesnt work for me, I end up getting all confused. I think sometimes its ok, example when I was in my past relationship, I was learning on my own with God and it was ok because I had no-one else. But now, for some reason, im supposed to be more quiet and obediant. And God will lead the person who I listen to to truth, if I ask, which I do. And me too. So I have faith in God with this. It just feels better. A time for everything. And I was shown this just a day or two ago.
Quote (Istari @ April 21 2011,08:53) KarMarie,
You are astounding. Where have you been hiding your pearls of wisdom.Your post has restored my confidence that there is anyone who understands:
If I find five people in this forum… Three… Even One!
Yes, Kar, you are that ONE.
Thanks:)WJ,
Once again your answers are excellent according to your belief.
God's Spirit dwelling in us then is God himself.
So God is his own Spirit… Ok! The Spirit of God is God himself…ok!
Jesus was going before the Hebrews in the desert – WJ, I thought that was the Angel of God who had God's name (Power and authority) in him?
And WJ, I was still asking according to before incarnation so 3.5 years was not part of the question nor answer!
Quote (karmarie @ April 20 2011,16:59) Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,08:35) Karmarie, This is an interesting perspective:
http://www.divorcehope.com/womenteachinginchurchministry.htm
Hi kathi.I know theres all different perspectives on that. But I found through trail and error, that I need to listen to the person who I listen to more than speak. When I try and find out all the answers myself, and to disagree…it doesnt work for me, I end up getting all confused. I think sometimes its ok, example when I was in my past relationship, I was learning on my own with God and it was ok because I had no-one else. But now, for some reason, im supposed to be more quiet and obediant. And God will lead the person who I listen to to truth, if I ask, which I do. And me too. So I have faith in God with this. It just feels better. A time for everything. And I was shown this just a day or two ago.
Karmarie,
We all are accountable for the manner in which we walk…romance can sometimes lead us astray, not always.Press on…
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,23:21)
Mike,
Now you are getting desperate. The Spirit is within the Father and worshiped as vital part of the Father. All other things you listed are not living beings…clouds, books…good grief Mike.
Kathi, you are the one who said, “…one without the other would not save me”. So I was making a facetious point that if you are going to worship the things OF God that He chose to use for your salvation, then why stop at Jesus? Because Jesus and God without the Book of Life would not save you. Jesus and God without the clouds Jesus will come on will not save you.God ALONE is the One who will either save you or not. The fact that God chose Jesus as a conduit through whom HE HIMSELF will save you does not equate Jesus with God, nor entitle him to the worship due only to God Himself.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,22:57) The Son was begotten, all else was created from new non-eternal substance.
Hi Kathi,Can you list any “substance”, that at the atomic or smaller levels, ceases to exist……….ever?
In other words, do the very atoms that humans consist of cease to be a part of existence when the human dies?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,23:45)
]Mike,
You have a view that you see Him created in two verses but you know that they are ambiguious. You also know that the early church father's don't agree with your view.
I don't consider the very straightforward words, “He is the firstborn of all creation” to be “ambiguous”. I know that many people with many agendas try hard to “imagine” those words mean something other than what they clearly say, but I don't buy into that fluff………….even if that fluff originated with the early church fathers.Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,23:45)
1. Jesus was NOT created.
2. Jesus never had a beginning.
3. God was always a Father.If they are so scripturally unsound why did the early church claim them and die for them?
What?
Did the early church fathers give scriptural references to support these above claims? The words of the early church fathers WITHOUT SCRIPTURAL BACKING don't mean any more than the words of a two year old child. Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,23:45)
Many early church fathers have taught what I teach and have died for their beliefs.
Don't forget that the words of these guys eventually lead to the worship of Mary as the “Mother of God”. Don't tout their unscriptural words to me as if they mean something, for they don't. The fact that you are “not alone in your understanding” doesn't mean diddly squat if your understanding isn't backed by the only authority we have on the matter.Kathi, this is a simple rule we all should follow: If it isn't actually in the scriptures, then “just thinking that this is the way it is” doesn't amount to a hill of beans, and we should be careful about building our scriptural understanding around our own unscripturally supported thoughts.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,23:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:22) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:13) Istari,
The default definition of 'firstborn' is the first offspring to come from the parent. All other instances that are not according to the default are rare.
And made very clear by the context that they AREN'T the default definition.
Mike,
And just what 'default' offspring did the Son replace? Has scripture ever said that the Son was a designated firstborn?Kathi
Kathi,I was supporting you. Any time it is NOT the default meaning that is meant, it is always very clear from the context that this is the case.
This was NEVER the case with Jesus. It was never clear from context nor even implied that “firstborn” meant anything other than “the one born first” in the case of Jesus.
But aren't your own words of defense against Istari's claim the same words of wisdom you ignore when it comes to Col 1:15?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2011,12:15)
A Species? I don't know, but there is a class of being called Angels which are not men, but are ministers to the heirs of salvation.
I agree. What qualities does this “class of being” possess? Well, they are spirit beings, right? So is Jesus. They are messengers of God, right? So is Jesus.I agree that they were all created through Jesus, because he is the firstborn of the creation by God, and all other things were created through him.
If you want to think of Jesus, a heavenly spirit being, as being in a separate “class of being” than the other heavenly spirit beings, I'm okay with that. Just know that his God who created all is in a class all to Himself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2011,12:15)
Jesus returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father and if that Glory was/is “better than the angels” then he could not have been an angel.
Actually I believe Heb 1:4 is implying that Jesus was exalted to an even HIGHER glory than the glory he left behind to become flesh. He has BECOME as much better than the messengers as the name he [just] inherited is better than theirs.I agree that he was “better” before, but I think the writer is saying he became even MORE better (bad English?
) after he was raised. That would explain why he was now worthy to open the scroll God held in His hand. Yep, that's quite a doctrine you got there Keith. God was EXALTED by God to a higher position than God had before God was made perfect through suffering and death at the hands of puny humans. And because God followed the commands of God so well and did all that God asked God to do, God was now found worthy to take the scroll from the hand of God.
Come on, now!
Did God take the scroll from His own hand because God deemed Himself worthy?peace to you,
mikeQuote (Istari @ April 20 2011,04:08) Mike, Now you are beginning to understand.
'…isms' are only things that people do so often it becomes them.
It's you that create them yourself so how do you complain.
Hi Istari,I suggested that if your intentions are to “put me in my place”, you would do better to prove my understandings to be scripturally flawed than to invent new ways to insult me.
I'll take the fact that you once again chose the latter as an indication that you are unable to do the former.
Btw, now that I see you ARE actually still talking to me, would you mind commenting on Luke 3:38 that I brought up twice? Brief and to the point, if you don't mind.
peace,
mikeQuote (karmarie @ April 20 2011,22:25) Kathi,
You do realise we shouldnt even be speaking here?But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.
1 Timothy 2:12let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly.
1 Corin 14:35Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
1 Tim 2:11Hmmm.
Karmaria! Scripture does say woman should be quit/ However, we are not all together gathered around a table. At our House Georg wears the pants. He makes the final decision. He is my head above me, as Almighty God is above Jesus. As Jesus is above man.1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Scipture also says “Love you wife as God loves you. Since Georg loves me, He lets me talk. We have been married for 50 years, and that is what works……
Peace and Love Irene
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