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Quote (terraricca @ April 19 2011,13:16) if God is invisible then all things were created out of that witch is invisible.
Check you out, Pierre.You've mastered the quote box…………..and now BOLDED WORDS!
What's next? Underlines? Italics? You have made me so proud!
peace and love to you,
mikeQuote (Istari @ April 19 2011,16:31) But to let you in on the secret I'd have to pm you because there is someone who is very sensitive to the reality of truth who wouldn't like the truth to be told unless they agreed it first.
Good call!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,19:08) I can't begin to worship the Father in truth apart from the worship of the Son…one without the other would not save me.
Then you might as well go full bore and worship God's Spirit also. And the Book of Life too! Because without that Book which contains your name, you cannot be saved.Will you worship the Book of Life Kathi?
How about clouds? Without clouds for Jesus to return on, he won't return, and you won't be saved. So you NEED those clouds to be saved, right? Well, you'd better start worshipping them to!
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,19:16) Mike,
The Son always existed within the Father, creation did not.
Show me the scripture that teaches you this “fact”…………..so that I too may believe.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 18 2011,23:31) Istari wrote: Quote “This has now become an infamous 'Mikebollism'.” Man that cracks me up, Im stealing that.
Hey guys! I have a crazy idea: What if, instead of inventing names to ridicule me and coming up with new ways to insult me, you just hit me where it would REALLY hurt?Show my understanding to be faulty or flawed using the scriptures themselves. That would really put me in my place!
(Warning: It might backfire on you. I might actually amend my own understanding in the light of the scriptures you've showed me. And that would mean you might be helping to save a fellow believer, instead of laughing at him.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2011,19:31) Quote (terraricca @ April 19 2011,13:16) if God is invisible then all things were created out of that witch is invisible.
Check you out, Pierre.You've mastered the quote box…………..and now BOLDED WORDS!
What's next? Underlines? Italics? You have made me so proud!
peace and love to you,
mike
Mikewho knows ,looking good now
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2011,19:28) Quote (terraricca @ April 19 2011,14:16) Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2011,07:57) Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,17:10) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,01:57) Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,02:13) Kathy! Georg said that Angels and Jesus were created they are called Angela, wile God was not…And that is why He is not an Angel…Irene
Thanks Irene,Another question for Georg…
What is the difference between being the first born and being the first created?
Kathi
Kathi! Firstborn of all creation. God is a creator….God creates.
Jesus was created by God, and became the firstborn of all creation.
Born simply means brought into existence.
God created from nothing, Humans procreates from things God has created…
The reason Jesus is called only begotten Son of God is, because everything else God created through Jesus. Including the Angels.Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
This is what Georg said…..And it does make sense.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
That is the big huge difference between you and I. You seem to think that God created Jesus out of nothing. He could not be a literal son if that were so.Kathi
kathiRo 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.if God is invisible then all things were created out of that witch is invisible.
Mt 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Mt 6:18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
2Co 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternalwhat is our opinion worth in the eyes of God ??
Pierre
Pierre,Quote what is our opinion worth in the eyes of God ?? I believe that He values our opinion and wants to lead us to understanding and truth.
Kathi
Kathiour opinion is worthless if it is not the truth of God,
Show me were God paid attention to people who do not care for him.?
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:40) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,19:16) Mike,
The Son always existed within the Father, creation did not.
Show me the scripture that teaches you this “fact”…………..so that I too may believe.
Hi Mike,Wow…fiesty tonight aren't ya?
Here is a verse that states that it was by His 'will' that all things were created.
Rev 4:11
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Mike, if all things existed eternally within the Father then they already existed for eternity and no need to create anything. All things just needed to be formed into different things and today that would still be going on and nothing would have come from something new but some material already existing. Therefore creation would be more like evolution…like the insides of God came out of him and became different things and then those things became different things and creation keeps going and going and going. That would mean that God is everything…everything is eternal in its roots. Then matter is eternal and therefore God and all things are God because all things existed from eternity but just changed form and function. A person isn't the alpha and omega but everything is the alpha and omega.
Gen 1 says that God created the heavens and the earth, it doesn't say that God became the heavens and the earth, the the plants, the fish, the heavenly bodies, the beasts of the field, the angels, the humans. In seems that by your view, everything and everyone:
1. eternally existed in their raw form
2. are part of God's eternal substance
3. God is still creating because creation just means changing form one eternally existing substance to another
4. Everything is eternal substance
5. God is the sum of everything in existence…we are all bits and pieces of God, even the trees and rocks.
6. Nothing new was brought into existence.
7. Everything was just renewed not new.That would be hard to back up scripturally though because the Bible says that all things were created in six days. God did not evolve into the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.
God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. If bits and pieces of God's substance is in everything and everywhere then all is part of the divine and all have divine nature within them…we would have no need to partake of divine nature in the future because we would already be divine nature.
Do you see the problem with saying that the Son was within Him from eternity as well as everything else?
The Son was begotten, all else was created from new non-eternal substance.
I didn't post many verses here because you should know that the Bible says that:
1. Creation took six days
2. God created the heavens and the earth, no where does it say He became the heavens and the earth.
3. Believers will partake of the divine nature but they didn't start out that way.
4. God's presence comes and goes, it left the tabernacle and then came back to it…it wasn't always everwhere at all times.Do you need verses for those last 4 statements or are you familiar with them?
Kathi
Pierre,
He will judge them won't he…that is paying attention to them. He has to pay attention to all men in order to judge them of their deeds.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:39) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,19:08) I can't begin to worship the Father in truth apart from the worship of the Son…one without the other would not save me.
Then you might as well go full bore and worship God's Spirit also. And the Book of Life too! Because without that Book which contains your name, you cannot be saved.Will you worship the Book of Life Kathi?
How about clouds? Without clouds for Jesus to return on, he won't return, and you won't be saved. So you NEED those clouds to be saved, right? Well, you'd better start worshipping them to!
mike
Mike,
Now you are getting desperate. The Spirit is within the Father and worshiped as vital part of the Father. All other things you listed are not living beings…clouds, books…good grief Mike. The Father and the Son ARE living beings though and we can't have the Father apart from the Son, nor the Son apart from the Father and you can't worship them at all apart from the Holy Spirit.John 14:1
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.James 1:1-1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.Kathi
LOL I got a tile???
About time.So tell me what did i get a tile for because the “warning” doesnt tell me.
So I might do it again, just because of ignorance.and there should be a place to fight these tiles.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:19) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:02) Mike,
Not all heavenly spirit messengers were created. There are the angels and then there is the Son and the Spirit, both eternal…not created. God always was a Father.
Kathi,Scripture says Jesus was created…………..TWICE. It also says he was born many times. Nothing that was “brought forth”, as the Hebrew term “yalad” means, was eternal. It is your choice to believe it or not.
Also, the Holy Spirit is not an entity in and of itself, that it could be considered a “messenger”. When God speaks through His Spirit, He is not delivering someone else's message, so that He would be considered a “messenger” either.
And I would imagine that God became a Father when he brought forth a Son for Himself. That's the way it works with those of us who are made in His image, and there is nothing in the scriptures to imply it would be any other way for God.
So here are the UNSCRIPTURAL things you often claim:
1. Jesus was NOT created.
2. Jesus never had a beginning.
3. God was always a Father.Does it seem right and fair for you to just “think” things, and then try to TEACH them to others when those things are not taught in scripture?
peace,
mike
Mike,
You have a view that you see Him created in two verses but you know that they are ambiguious. You also know that the early church father's don't agree with your view.You say that nothing that was 'brought forth' (yalad) was eternal but they were brought forth as an offspring like the parent when yalad is associated with a 'son.' I haven't studied that like you have but wouldn't that be true? The Son would be eternal and all else was created. You think that all else was made from eternal substance though so that would make everything eternal that was brought forth.
Did you become a father the moment your son was born or were you a father for about nine months before he was brought forth? Read about what Elizabeth says to Mary about being the mother of her Lord while she was pregnant, before she gave birth. The baby was alive before being born and the parents are mother and father since conception.
Quote So here are the UNSCRIPTURAL things you often claim: 1. Jesus was NOT created.
2. Jesus never had a beginning.
3. God was always a Father.If they are so scripturally unsound why did the early church claim them and die for them?
Quote Does it seem right and fair for you to just “think” things, and then try to TEACH them to others when those things are not taught in scripture? Just because you can't see them or understand them doesn't mean they are not taught…just because you want to choose one meaning over another doesn't mean that you have chosen the correct meaning over the meaning that the early church father's knew as well as many scholars. I am not just 'thinking' things up Mike. I am not alone in my understanding and I have asked God to show me truth. Many early church fathers have taught what I teach and have died for their beliefs.
I know that neither of us want to be teaching things that are wrong, but at least one of us is when we differ…maybe me, maybe you, and maybe both. Nobody knows the whole story. We all need to be open to correction.
Kathi
Maybe it is you who is the one that has the unique ideas because the early church father's didn't see things the way that you do in many things.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:22) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:13) Istari,
The default definition of 'firstborn' is the first offspring to come from the parent. All other instances that are not according to the default are rare.
And made very clear by the context that they AREN'T the default definition.
Mike,
And just what 'default' offspring did the Son replace? Has scripture ever said that the Son was a designated firstborn?Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2011,22:59) Pierre,
He will judge them won't he…that is paying attention to them. He has to pay attention to all men in order to judge them of their deeds.
KathiNO, he watched them but only if there action interfere with his will ,the rest of the action of the wicket is beard on his soul,
as for the righteous yes now he paid attention because he does not want one to be lost.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2011,12:49) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 18 2011,23:31) Istari wrote: Quote “This has now become an infamous 'Mikebollism'.” Man that cracks me up, Im stealing that.
Hey guys! I have a crazy idea: What if, instead of inventing names to ridicule me and coming up with new ways to insult me, you just hit me where it would REALLY hurt?Show my understanding to be faulty or flawed using the scriptures themselves. That would really put me in my place!
(Warning: It might backfire on you. I might actually amend my own understanding in the light of the scriptures you've showed me. And that would mean you might be helping to save a fellow believer, instead of laughing at him.)
Mike,Now you are beginning to understand.
'…isms' are only things that people do so often it becomes them.
It's you that create them yourself so how do you complain.
And, again, breaking the bad '…isms' makes you free from their bonds that entrap the line of thinking but like the man who cleanses his house of evil beings, the line of thinking must to set to a true line otherwise, like the man, his house will be again occupied by many more evil beings…
Is that Scriptural enough without actual Scripture verses – I presume you know the verses/Story I refer to!
Or… You could have just IGNORED the quip! Turned the other cheek, as it were… Instead you chose to 'turn another Cheek' back!
All,
The way I see it is, Jesus was an Angel, one of the sons of God.
People say there is only one son of God.
Really?
Who were the sons of God who presented themselves before God in Job…and in other verses there is clearly sons of God…wasn't Israel also Gods son? etc. Aren't people today called sons of God?
It cant be proven Jesus was an Angel but it cant be disproved either.
And as for Jesus being another God, before and while on Earth, what do you do with this then:Isaiah 45
4 “…I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God.
14 “… There is no other god.
21 “…Who has declared it of old? Haven't I, Yahweh? There is no other God besides me.
22 “…Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.…and how do you help Muslims and Jews (do you know what they think of Gentiles who try to say there is more than one God…especially to say God gave birth to another God!…thats Polytheism.
The word was with God and the word was God…nothing hard to understand about that, unless you believe in more than one God. Its Gods spoken word.
Isaiah 55:11
'So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.'Hebrews 1:1 (YLT)
'In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son'.Jesus now is risen up into Heaven and seated at Gods right hand. He is there until all Gods enemies are put under his feet, the last one being death.
Anything complicated about that?
Jesus is (now) higher than any other Man and any other Angel. His name is above all names.
The only other alternative is that Jesus is God Almighty come down in the form of Man, (so theres God who is invisible spirit, his Spirit being part of him, and then the flesh which was Jesus) but I find Scripture doesnt fit that.
My view.
Kathi,
You do realise we shouldnt even be speaking here?But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.
1 Timothy 2:12let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly.
1 Corin 14:35Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
1 Tim 2:11Hmmm.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,12:26) If Jesus is a literal “Angelic” being……………
Where is this particular “species” mentioned in scripture, Keith?
MikeA Species? I don't know, but there is a class of being called Angels which are not men, but are ministers to the heirs of salvation.
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent “to serve those who will inherit salvation? Heb 1:14
The last I looked Jesus is not serving anyone since all things are in his hands.
Also the above verse implies that Angels are not “heirs” whereas Jesus by virtue of being the “Only Begotten Son” inherited all things and we are joint heirs with him. So Jesus could not be an angel according to this verse.
But the best argument that Jesus is not an “angelic being” is that there are none others like him because he is the “Only Begotten Son of God” and we know God is not an “angelic being”.
Another valid point concerning the above scripture is found in the following sight…
Heb.1:4 “having become so much better than the angels.” How by nature? NO, by exaltation at the resurrection- returning to his former position. How can he be better than angels if he is an angel? He already was better in nature before his incarnation as the very one who created all the angels. (Col.1:14-17, Jn.1:3). Click here for source
Jesus returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father and if that Glory was/is “better than the angels” then he could not have been an angel.
WJ
Karmarie,
This is an interesting perspective:
http://www.divorcehope.com/womenteachinginchurchministry.htm
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