Is jesus god the angel??

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 18 2011,15:14)

Kathi,

There is Firstborn and there is First-born (Or First Born).

The first is that ONE that is held most closely to the Father irrespective of birth order.
Even an adopted ONE can become the Firstborn.

The second, 'First born', is simply that: THE ONE that was born first to the father.

Jacob was Isaac's FIRSTBORN … but yet it was Esau was that was Isaac's First born!
Jacob was BEGOTTEN as Firstborn, raised up in Rank order, Adopted, … As Firstborn over his first born brother!

Istari,
The default definition of 'firstborn' is the first offspring to come from the parent. All other instances that are not according to the default are rare.

April 19, 2011 at 2:20 pm#243754

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 18 2011,15:01)

Hi Kathi,

Phil 3:3, whichever way it is read, states that we Honor the Son (Even as we Honor the Father).
Honouring is not Worshipping – honouring means giving credit.

We do indeed give Credit to both Father And Son.

That part is clear and is echoed elsewhere several times in Scriptures.

We AGREE on that.
However, you cannot extrapolate 'Honor' to 'Worship' else you created a dangerous precedence.

Worship is, amongst others things, to Serve with complete reverence.
No where in Scriptures are any of creation other than the Angels told to serve Jesus/The Son with reverence.

Sorry, you quote several times isn't the word 'Honor' as if 'Honor' and 'Worship' are interchangeable. This is wrong and can only be drawn from a need to do so.

Even that 'Every knee shall bow' does not mean 'Worship'. Every knee shall bow in Honor of who Christ is, as King, as Judge over Mankind and the Angels.

Even in Revelation, the direction is to 'Honor, Praise and Glorify'… These are, indeed, ensconced in Worship, but are not themselves, 'Worship'.

Do we not (Has all this not been gone over before) 'Honor, Praise and Glorify' a Champion, the Race winner, the Best Student, a Mighty Hero (a god)…the King.

Honor the Son; Worship the God.

Ok, Kathi, in Scriptures, does it not say in several places: 'Worship God' and 'Worship God, and Gid alone'?

Is there a Scripture, even one, other than for the Angels, that says or (properly) implies 'Worship the Son/Chrsit'?

'The Son honors the Father just as the Father Honors the Son' …God worships his Son?

Kathi, what does the word 'Honor' mean to you? Please!

Istari,

Quote

Worship is, amongst others things, to Serve with complete reverence

Yes, I agree with that. I can't think why there would be any reason to not give that both to the Father and the Son. If I served the Son with complete reverence I would please His Father…I am sure of that.

Honor is to esteem/place great value on someone or something.

I take the verse about honoring the Father and the Son to mean that you give both the honor of being God in your life.

Kathi

April 19, 2011 at 5:18 pm#243758

Participant

Irene,
I see a point you raised about Jesus no longer being like us.

Yes, you are right – and I never said he was! I said he is Man in Spirit form!
Is that 'being like us'?

I also went on to explain how this 'man in spirit form' works: angels/Spirits that manifest themselves in human form on earth do not have recognisable features – they are non-descript.
The bodies they materialise are generic.
However, Jesus has acquired a body with recognisable features – one of which is the holes in his hands and feet. These are to be everlasting to signs of his sacrifice in the flesh of his body.
Do you think that God could not have raised Jesus up and fully restored his body without the wounds (Did God not make moses' hand go leprous in one moment and restore it whole in the next )

This body. Is a Spritual Body that can never again see Corruption (Can never decay. Can never die – this is how the first Adam's body was until he sinned)

Now this body which is flesh and bone, cannot enter heaven… So how does Jesus enter heaven to be at the right hand of his Father (Note: RH is not Physicsl RH for there is no up, down. Left
, right, east, west, north, south, in, out, top, bottom, or any other Physicsl positioning in heaven – these are merely human concepts to mirror those of the spirit.
To be at god's right hand means to be fully in his Power, sharing his power, having full use of his power… Else how is God at his right hand as he is at God's right hand (p.s. It can be done!) clearly these are metaphysical positions… Like saying 'Going UP to the City' or 'DOWN to the country' even though the cm itu may be in a valley or the 'Country [side] on a hill!

April 19, 2011 at 5:51 pm#243759

Participant

Kathi
It is certainly true that we should Honor the Son as much as we Honor the Father because to the acknowledgement of one is the acknowledgement of the other.

But Kathi, this is HONORING… not Worshipping!

See your own statement: you Honor them both. You left out WORSHIP.

Worship is not Honor – Honor is not Worship!
Honor is part of Worship – but Honor is not Worship
A penny is part of a pound – but a penny is not a pound
An egg is part of what makes a cake – but an egg is not a cake

Moreover, God says he is ONE and beside him there is no other. Also, before him there was no God created and after him there is no God created.
Therefore you make a grand error because you cause Jesus to be created and call him God.

Even if… He were INSIDE GOD, he is still created and that makes (You make) God to be a liar!
Even if he simply 'came forth' from God he was not in existence before hr came forth so you still make God a deceiver because you imply that God was in God and he did not tell us – yet the Son came to reveal the truth of the father! How can we be believing if he still holds back important information about himself that causes us to sin – if we believe what you say – Kathi. Did God reveal this aspect of himself to you – and you only' then what use have you made of this great revelation that actually goes against everything else that God says concerning himself!

I am one and besides me there is no one – no, not one. Who is like me?
Moreover, even simple basic logic says there can only be one supreme head. Have you ever seen an organisation with more than one head. Have you seen a unified creature with more than one head (yes, a Corn SNAKE) and if so, was it not caused by faulty genes and was it not HANDICAPPED!

April 19, 2011 at 6:26 pm#243760

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,09:02)

Mike,
Not all heavenly spirit messengers were created. There are the angels and then there is the Son and the Spirit, both eternal…not created. God always was a Father.

Hi Kathi

True! If Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” then that would mean that “angels” could not be “EXACTLY” in nature what the Son is unless Jesus is some sort of special “Angelic Spirit being” which would mean he is in a class of his own and not of the same class of angels anyway.

Man being in the image of God is unique of any other creature or creation. There are no scriptures that imply the Gospel is for angels or that angels share the divine nature of God or that angels ever refer to the Father as their personal Father. Nor is there a scripture where the Father calls any angel “his Son”.

That is why I believe that the scriptures do not teach that angelic beings are sons of God but only men are by virtue of the fact that men were created in the image of God.

If Jesus is a literal “Angelic” being then that would mean the Father is also an angelic being for Jesus is the “exact representation of the Fathers being, nature, essence or substance”. Heb 1:3

April 19, 2011 at 7:16 pm#243762

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2011,07:57)

Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,17:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,01:57)

Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,02:13)

Kathy! Georg said that Angels and Jesus were created they are called Angela, wile God was not…And that is why He is not an Angel…Irene

Thanks Irene,

Another question for Georg…

What is the difference between being the first born and being the first created?

Kathi

Kathi! Firstborn of all creation. God is a creator….God creates.
Jesus was created by God, and became the firstborn of all creation.
Born simply means brought into existence.
God created from nothing, Humans procreates from things God has created…
The reason Jesus is called only begotten Son of God is, because everything else God created through Jesus. Including the Angels.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This is what Georg said…..And it does make sense.
Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
That is the big huge difference between you and I. You seem to think that God created Jesus out of nothing. He could not be a literal son if that were so.

Kathi

kathi

Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.

if God is invisible then all things were created out of that witch is invisible.

Mt 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Mt 6:18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
2Co 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal

what is our opinion worth in the eyes of God ??

Pierre

April 19, 2011 at 7:19 pm#243763

Baker

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,04:18)

Irene,
I see a point you raised about Jesus no longer being like us.

Yes, you are right – and I never said he was! I said he is Man in Spirit form!
Is that 'being like us'?

This body. Is a Spritual Body that can never again see Corruption (Can never decay. Can never die – this is how the first Adam's body was until he sinned)

Istari! I am going to zero in on that you believe Jesus has a glorified body with holes in. Do you know what a ransom is?

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Explain to me, what that meabs?

Irene

April 19, 2011 at 10:23 pm#243768

Participant

Irene,
You are going to tell me that Jesus died so he is still dead.
Jesus' sacrifice was his body and it is still dead…

Or was it his blood – his blood was drained out of him…

That's why he says, 'See my body – I am not Spirit. See the holes that they made in me, here in the feet and hands. Flesh and Bone … (Not Flesh and Blood) cannot enter heaven'

April 19, 2011 at 10:31 pm#243769

Participant

Kerwin,
You have missed something.

But to let you in on the secret I'd have to pm you because there is someone who is very sensitive to the reality of truth who wouldn't like the truth to be told unless they agreed it first.

Let me know if you want to know – you might not! You might prefer not to!

April 20, 2011 at 1:00 am#243778

Baker

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 20 2011,09:23)

Irene,
You are going to tell me that Jesus died so he is still dead.
Jesus' sacrifice was his body and it is still dead…

Or was it his blood – his blood was drained out of him…

That's why he says, 'See my body – I am not Spirit. See the holes that they made in me, here in the feet and hands. Flesh and Bone … (Not Flesh and Blood) cannot enter heaven'

Istari! When He appeared to His Apostles, the doors were shut, and there He stood in the midst of them. They were doubting that He had risen from the death. Especially Thomas. In order to show that it was Him, He manifest Himself to show them. Yes, the blood was not in that body. If Jesus came through the door, it would not have to say that the doors were shut.
And the ransom would not be intact, if Jesus still had His former body. What happened to that body, is not revealed. Also when Maria Magdalene seen Jesus, She thought it was the Gardner….And when Jesus walked with some Apostles they did not recognize Him either, Only after He broke Bread they did….
Peace and love Irene

April 20, 2011 at 1:06 am#243779

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ April 19 2011,02:56)

God GAVE the Revelation to Christ… Is that messenging – to be GIVEN something?

Jesus Christ SENT it to John via the Angel. It is the Angel that is Messenging for Jesus Christ.

You could stretch it and say John is being a 'Human Angel' because he delivers the Revelation to through his writing but that road would be fraught with technicalities so let's stick to the main subject.

Show me then how Jesus in this context is an Angel of God!

You were almost there Istari. The revelation came FROM God Himself, so He is not a messenger because he is not delivering anybody else's message, right?

But who's the first person that God gave the revelation to so that HE COULD DELIVER IT TO SOMEONE ELSE?

mike

April 20, 2011 at 1:08 am#243781

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMh_ept-Js

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 19 2011,12:51)

Kathi
It is certainly true that we should Honor the Son as much as we Honor the Father because to the acknowledgement of one is the acknowledgement of the other.

But Kathi, this is HONORING… not Worshipping!

See your own statement: you Honor them both. You left out WORSHIP.

Hi Istari,

Quote

See your own statement: you Honor them both. You left out WORSHIP.

This was my statement:

I take the verse about honoring the Father and the Son to mean that you give both the honor of being God in your life.

So, if I give them both the honor of being God in my life then when I am worshiping the Father and the Son, I am worshiping them together as God. I can't begin to worship the Father in truth apart from the worship of the Son…one without the other would not save me. The one God I worship is the Father…and the Son within Him and the Spirit who is from them. Maybe you worship the God who's Son has no part in being God to us. The Son that I worship creates and gives eternal life and judges all men under the desire of the Father. The Father uses the Son and the Spirit to be God to us.

I asked the Father once if it were ok to also worship the Son along with Him. What popped into my mind was an old hymn:

So, I didn't get a 'no.'

Kathi

April 20, 2011 at 1:09 am#243783

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,07:57)

Irene,
That is the big huge difference between you and I. You seem to think that God created Jesus out of nothing. He could not be a literal son if that were so.

Kathi

Kathi,

Everything came out of God, right? Even rocks and planets and clouds and humans and Jesus, right? Or do you think things already existed that God did not bring into existence?

mike

April 20, 2011 at 1:14 am#243784

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,13:26)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,09:02)

Mike,
Not all heavenly spirit messengers were created. There are the angels and then there is the Son and the Spirit, both eternal…not created. God always was a Father.

Hi Kathi

That is why I believe that the scriptures do not teach that angelic beings are sons of God but only men are by virtue of the fact that men were created in the image of God.

Hi Keith,
I agree with your post for the most part
The only part that I don't is that I believe that the angels are called 'sons of God' a couple of times but they are created and do not have the nature of God. They are 'sons' because they are His creation.

Kathi

April 20, 2011 at 1:16 am#243785

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,20:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,07:57)

Irene,
That is the big huge difference between you and I. You seem to think that God created Jesus out of nothing. He could not be a literal son if that were so.

Kathi

Kathi,

Everything came out of God, right? Even rocks and planets and clouds and humans and Jesus, right? Or do you think things already existed that God did not bring into existence?

mike

Mike,
The Son always existed within the Father, creation did not.

Kathi

April 20, 2011 at 1:19 am#243786

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:02)

Mike,
Not all heavenly spirit messengers were created. There are the angels and then there is the Son and the Spirit, both eternal…not created. God always was a Father.

Kathi,

Scripture says Jesus was created…………..TWICE. It also says he was born many times. Nothing that was “brought forth”, as the Hebrew term “yalad” means, was eternal. It is your choice to believe it or not.

Also, the Holy Spirit is not an entity in and of itself, that it could be considered a “messenger”. When God speaks through His Spirit, He is not delivering someone else's message, so that He would be considered a “messenger” either.

And I would imagine that God became a Father when he brought forth a Son for Himself. That's the way it works with those of us who are made in His image, and there is nothing in the scriptures to imply it would be any other way for God.

So here are the UNSCRIPTURAL things you often claim:

1. Jesus was NOT created.
2. Jesus never had a beginning.
3. God was always a Father.

Does it seem right and fair for you to just “think” things, and then try to TEACH them to others when those things are not taught in scripture?

peace,
mike

April 20, 2011 at 1:22 am#243787

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:13)

Istari,
The default definition of 'firstborn' is the first offspring to come from the parent. All other instances that are not according to the default are rare.

And made very clear by the context that they AREN'T the default definition.

April 20, 2011 at 1:25 am#243788

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2011,08:20)

I can't think why there would be any reason to not give that both to the Father and the Son.

I can think of about 10 scriptures off the top of my head that give very good reasons. But I've already posted them to you, and you don't seem to care because, as your sentence begins, you can't THINK of any reason, therefore your own THOUGHTS override clear scriptural commands.

April 20, 2011 at 1:28 am#243789

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011,12:26)

If Jesus is a literal “Angelic” being……………

Where is this particular “species” mentioned in scripture, Keith?

April 20, 2011 at 1:28 am#243790