Is jesus god the angel??

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,20:20)

With this post, I just wanted to explain why looking at the Greek is very helpful to distinguish which variation of translation is closest to the intent of the original language. I haven't the faintest idea why you would have a problem with that…it is a good thing, Istari.

I second that “wondering”. Why would reading the Hebrew and Greek words be a “bad thing” or a thing to be ridiculed or looked down upon?

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,20:20)

When we worship the Father in spirit and truth, we will be led to give the same honor to the Son that we give the Father.

Scripture never says “same honor” Kathi. You are adding your own conjecture.

mike

April 18, 2011 at 2:43 am#243557

Participant

Quote (Istari @ April 17 2011,20:38)

Kathi,
Why is it that Scriptures only says explicitly that Angels are to Worship Jesus Christ?
Why were the Angels instructed to Worship Jesus Christ?
Kathi, is Jesus an Angel or a Man NOW?

If Angel, how does Angel worship Angel? Oh and doesn't Scriptures that God(!!) placed him high above all powers, principalities, ANGELS, and all names ever before mentioned?
If Man, is this not Idolotrous?

Kathi, I can see this will cause you much confusion now so I won't demand an answer.
Although you will no doubt say a third option (Actially it's not an option but all the same) that Jesus is God… But then you still have confusion because God (!!) said There is no other God beside him – and Jesus is AT HIS RIGHT HAND SIDE… hmm… Interesting dilemma!

Istari,

John 5:19-23
19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Angels were told to worship the Son and I am glad that you can see that. As you can see in the verse listed above,
if we honor the Father by our worship we ought to give the same honor of the Son…by our worship. So, both man and angels are to worship the Father and the Son.

Also, you know that I do not believe that the Son was one of the many in the group of 'angels' but called the 'angel of the Lord' only because He was a heavenly messenger, not because He was an angel being. So, I don't agree that He was first an angel, then a man, and then the only begotten Son.

I think that the order was:
Son within the Father from eternity
then begotten to be the Only Begotten God
Then He came in the flesh to become both the only Begotten God and Son of Man.
Now after the resurrection, He remains the only Begotten God and Son of Man but is glorified and holds the two offices of King and Mediator/High Priest at the same time. As the only Begotten God, He is distinct from the God who beget Him and thus can stand at the right hand of His Father.

Kathi

April 18, 2011 at 2:45 am#243558

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2011,21:53)

Okay all,

Here's the scorecard so far:
Galatians 4:14
…….you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

This scripture places Jesus in the “angel” category without a doubt. Add to this the fact that any messenger of God is also an angel of God, for that's what the word means. And not only did Jesus speak God's words to those on earth when he was flesh, but Revelation 1:1 shows he was still delivering God's words to us even after he had been raised to the right hand of God.

We have this verse:
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?

But this one is inconclusive, for the meaning could also be “to which ONE of the angels did God say………..”

Then we have:
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
This one is also inconclusive because it could mean “became as much superior to the OTHER angels……….” Similar to the fact that “King of kings” doesn't exclude that one from being a King himself. Here is another example of this:

2 Kings
27 In the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the year Awel-Marduk became king of Babylon, he released Jehoiachin king of Judah from prison. He did this on the twenty-seventh day of the twelfth month. 28 He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

The Hebrew text doesn't have the word “other”, but most translations contain it because it is implied. It really says “set his throne above the throne of the kings in Babylon”. Without the word “other”, it would seem like Jehoiachin was something other than one of the captured kings living in Babylon, but we know this is not the case.

And we have:
Matthew 24:36
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
t8 made a good point about this one by switching “Son” for “Michael”. But also consider that the Son wasn't “in heaven” at the time he said this, so that also could be the differentiating factor here.

“between” has brought up:
1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Does this mean an archangel will herald the arrival of Jesus? Or is this “voice of the archangel” the voice of Jesus himself?

“between” backs up 4:16 with this one:
John 5:28
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice………..
But again, this doesn't eliminate the theory that the archangel could herald the arrival of Jesus, and then after being announced, Jesus speaks.

Are there scriptures I've neglected to add?

My conclusion is that “the angels” are heavenly spirit beings who do the will of God. Jesus is also a heavenly spirit being who does the will of God, and so fits into that group nicely. Is he an archangel? Maybe……..but if so, then he is like the four star General compared to the other “regular” generals because he is superior to all the rest.

And we can't forget that all of those other generals, along with everything else in existence, came to be through Jesus. He is also the only being to come DIRECTLY from God Himself, the only one worthy to open the scroll, and the only angel to be placed as “Lord of lords and King of kings” by his God……………among many other things that distinguish Jesus from the other heavenly spirit beings.

I don't see Jesus as “Michael”, for I see no scriptural reason to come to this conclusion.

That's my take on it so far.

peace,
mike

Mike,
Let get one thing straight, You have now accepted that There is a category that is mentioned within the scriptures that speak of a particular holy Angelic group. Which is after this particular post.
This is the crux and the point of the Thread, So whether someone is a “messenger” at one Particular time would be irrevelant, which would also mean I and You are also human “anggelos”.

So let me respond to your understanding:
Galations 4:14– Should be translated as “messenger” in english based on the context. WM agrees with me on this.
It was not reffering to angelic beings and provides a greater empathsizes on Pauls part on how special these people were treating him even as if he were Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 1:5
If its inconclusive, than its irrevelant dont you think?
Either way it doesnt directly Involve Jesus.

Hebrews 1:4
But 1:3 expresses himself as the creator. If anything I believe that 1:4 itself empasizes that Jesus was not only supreior but never part of that, and the question on 1:5 even clarifys that even more.

For example:
“Jesus himself purged us from Sin and sat down in the right hand of power. Who is better than the Angels, who has a supierer name did they ever had. To which of the Angels at any time did God almighty call him Son? and that God himself will be the FAther of him?
Man Jesus is so Great that the Father says that these angels must worship this begotten Son“

And if you continue with these examples I would use Hebrews 1:7-8
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Its obvious that whatever the Angels are, Jesus is not directly that. and whatever the Angels are, they do not have what the “Son” have.

Matthew 24:36– I think that would support my points that Jesus is not an Angel, and that he is mentioned seperate from the Angels.

1 Thess 4:16– If we consider that Jesus is an Archangel because scripture says for Jesus to have a “voice of the archangel”
Than we must also accept that Jesus is “God's (literal)Trumpet” because scripture says.

John 5:28
Many angels speak in Revelations, so Its also…irrevelant.

What makes Jesus a Spirit being and not a Physical being?
Satan and the Fallen angels do the will of God also? do they not? Doesnt satan only do what God permits him to do?
Isnt he the accuser?

I think you should reconsider you conclusoin with your new revelation.

April 18, 2011 at 2:51 am#243562

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2011,21:32)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,20:20)

I second that “wondering”. Why would reading the Hebrew and Greek words be a “bad thing” or a thing to be ridiculed or looked down upon?

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,20:20)

When we worship the Father in spirit and truth, we will be led to give the same honor to the Son that we give the Father.

Scripture never says “same honor” Kathi. You are adding your own conjecture.

mike

Mike,
Like I have said before, it all comes down to what having divine nature truly means. If they both have divine nature, then they are both eternal because divine nature HAS TO ALWAYS EXIST or it wouldn't be an exact representation to divine nature. An eternal aspect is critical for the nature to be divine. God is a God with the Begotten God in His bosom…always complete as Father and Son…if no Son, no God in His fullest sense and no Father.

April 18, 2011 at 3:05 am#243566

Participant

Good post Dennison-son!

I want to add that if Gal 4:14 is saying that Jesus is an angel of God,

and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.

then this passage:
24Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” 31Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh. 32Therefore, to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh, because he touched the socket of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew of the hip.

shows that God is a man, according to the same logic that Mike uses to say that Gal 4:14 is saying that Jesus is an angel.

Kathi

April 18, 2011 at 3:23 am#243568

Blocked

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 17 2011,20:45)

I think you should reconsider you conclusoin with your new revelation.

Hi D,

Good addition of Heb 1:7-8. Verse 8 does seem to contrast the Son as something OTHER THAN “the angels” mentioned in verse 7.

Like I asked Kathi a while back: What do we do now? We have some scriptures calling Jesus an angel, and some that seem to distinguish him FROM “the angels”.

I don't know the answer for sure. I do know that he is a “spiritural angel of God” for sure. And I also know he's higher than “the angels”, whatever that means. Could we BOTH be right, D? I truthfully don't know the answer at this time. I will pray for guidance and understanding about it.

But I did think of another analogy of Galatians 4:14 while pm'ing Wm earlier. Wanna hear it?

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Sleepy himself.

This just goes to show MY point that the second mention must be one who is a part of the first group, or it doesn't make sense. And it further shows that Wm's claim that the second one is of “higher status” is not NECESSARILY true, for I can't think of one dwarf who was of “higher status” than any of the other ones. And yet the statement still works just fine.

mike

April 18, 2011 at 3:30 am#243569

Participant

Mike,
Cute! :;):

Quote

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Sleepy himself.

I see it more like:

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Snow White, herself.

Same story, different emphasis.

April 18, 2011 at 3:34 am#243570

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,21:05)

shows that God is a man, according to the same logic that Mike uses to say that Gal 4:14 is saying that Jesus is an angel.

Not at all Kathi,

What this does is “muddy” the issue unnecessarily.

Your passage shows that the angel of God who wrestled with Jacob had the appearance of a man at the time. And it shows the common practice of calling a vice regent OF God “God”.

Similar to the Sodom and Gomorrah situation we've discussed. Those vice regents OF YHWH were called “men”, “angels of YHWH” and “YHWH” in that passage.

Consider Manoah, the father of Sampson. After seeing the angel of Jehovah (who he'd previously called “man”) go up in the flames, he realized it was an ANGEL, (not Jehovah Himself). Yet he still feared for his life: 21 Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

Seeing an angel OF God face to face is obviously possible. Seeing God Himself face to face is not. It's just that many people of that time called the angels OF God “God”.

mike

April 18, 2011 at 3:36 am#243571

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,21:30)

Mike,
Cute! :;):

Quote

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Sleepy himself.

I see it more like:

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Snow White, herself.

Same story, different emphasis.

But yours makes no sense because Snow White is not a member OF the first group mentioned.

I recently gave this similar example to show how the second must be a part of the first group, or it will not make sense:

You welcomed me as if I were a Nascar driver, as if I were Albert Einstein himself.

See? No sense whatsoever.

mike

April 18, 2011 at 3:37 am#243572

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,08:23)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 17 2011,20:45)

I think you should reconsider you conclusoin with your new revelation.

Hi D,

Good addition of Heb 1:7-8. Verse 8 does seem to contrast the Son as something OTHER THAN “the angels” mentioned in verse 7.

Like I asked Kathi a while back: What do we do now? We have some scriptures calling Jesus an angel, and some that seem to distinguish him FROM “the angels”.

But I did think of another analogy of Galatians 4:14 while pm'ing Wm earlier. Wanna hear it?

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Sleepy himself.

mike

Hi Mike

Good im glad we agree on that. We are progressing and understanding eachother better.

What do we do now you say? Well In my perspective I dont have an issue per say.

How is it that you can still be so sure to call Jesus is a “spiritual angel of God” when you already know he is not distingish as that.
I think you have reconsider your Theology abuot Jesus being an Angel.
Which brings us back to the orginal question: IF Jesus is not an Angel, than what IS he?

Actually I honestly believe that you at this point have no idea what Jesus IS. do you agree with my observation about you?
Could you honestly admit that you have no idea what Jesus is?

Well, since i think “anggelos” in that particular scripture should have been translated as “messenger” and gave a greater empasizes by stating Christ Jesus, why because we know from Hebrews that he is the greatest of all beings.

AGain, that scripture has nothing to do with Jesus being part of this distinguished group.

GEt what im sayin G?

April 18, 2011 at 3:47 am#243573

Blocked

Well D,

I am glad that you finally recognize me as an upper case “G”!

The answer to your question is “NO, I don't exactly know what Jesus is.” But I also don't know exactly what God is. Heck, I don't even exactly know what the other angels are.

All three that I mentioned are spirit beings. We know that God is higher than Jesus, and Jesus is higher than the other spiritual messengers of God.

But other than that, what do we really know about the matter?

mike

April 18, 2011 at 3:49 am#243574

Baker

Participant

Kathy! Funny, is God Spirit? No…. As far as Jesus is concerned, I do believe He was an Angel. Above all Angels. IMO He volunteered to die for us. Now He is seated at the right hand of Almighty God. Has immortality and will not die again. Nobody has received eternal life yet, except Jesus. He is the firstborn iof all creation, and the firstborn of the death. So He may have preeminence….
Peace and Love Irene

April 18, 2011 at 3:49 am#243575

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2011,22:36)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2011,21:30)

Mike,
Cute! :;):

Quote

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Sleepy himself.

I see it more like:

You welcomed me as if I were one of the seven dwarfs, as if I were Snow White, herself.

Same story, different emphasis.

But yours makes no sense because Snow White is not a member OF the first group mentioned.

I recently gave this similar example to show how the second must be a part of the first group, or it will not make sense:

You welcomed me as if I were a Nascar driver, as if I were Albert Einstein himself.

See? No sense whatsoever.

mike

Mike,

Quote

But yours makes no sense because Snow White is not a member OF the first group mentioned.

Well, if you think about it, it does make sense. Snow White was adored by the dwarfs, she was greater.

Jesus isn't a member of the first group mentioned either.

Your nascar example is lame because there is no relation to the two. :ghostface:

At least Snow White is in the same story. Better brush up on your Disney

April 18, 2011 at 3:52 am#243577

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,08:47)

Well D,

I am glad that you finally recognize me as an upper case “G”!

The answer to your question is “NO, I don't exactly know what Jesus is.” But I also don't know exactly what God is. Heck, I don't even exactly know what the other angels are.

All three that I mentioned are spirit beings. We know that God is higher than Jesus, and Jesus is higher than the other spiritual messengers of God.

But other than that, what do we really know about the matter?

mike

Exactly Mike,

But We know that God, Jesus and Angels are real.

We know Angels are ANGELS, and even hebrews says that They are “ministering spirits”.

We know that God is not an Angel, but he is a Spirit, the unseen.

we know that Jesus at one time Existed physically as a Man. That there is a “spirit of Christ” that can DWELL in us.
we also know alot about what Christ is, he is Truth, life, the way.

He is our King.

but he is not an ANGELic being, nor part of that distinguish group.

So if Jesus is not God, and not an Angel, than what the heck is He?

April 18, 2011 at 3:52 am#243578

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 17 2011,22:49)

Irene,
I am confused by your answer. Would you mind just using one word, yes or no to my question.

Ask Georg if God is a spirit being…yes or no.

Thanks!

April 18, 2011 at 3:57 am#243579

Baker

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2011,14:52)

Quote (Baker @ April 17 2011,22:49)

Irene,
I am confused by your answer. Would you mind just using one word, yes or no to my question.

Ask Georg if God is a spirit being…yes or no.

Thanks!

Kathy! I thought you were kidding, because everybody should know that Almighty God is a Spirit Being and always was. I don;t know why you asked me that question….Peace ad Love Irene

April 18, 2011 at 3:58 am#243580

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,08:49)

Irene!

What!!! are you nuts??
Jesus says in John 17 we receive Eternal life, he never says we receive it later.
we receive that now!

No where does it say that Jesus magically told God “Yo Father, ill put down my life”
Thats not in scripture.

Jesus saved people here on earth, and even the guy who died right beside him on the cross!

No where does it say that we dont receive eternal life now.
IF you know Jesus (and he must know you), and you are saved, than you have eternal life.

April 18, 2011 at 4:00 am#243581

Participant

Irene,
I asked you that because Georg said that if Jesus is a spirit being, then He is an angel…so if God is a spirit being wouldn't that make Him an angel according to that reasoning?

April 18, 2011 at 4:03 am#243582