Is jesus god the angel??

[mikeboll64]

Quote (karmarie @ April 15 2011,17:41)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 16 2011,11:49) No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons   Job 1:6 'Now it happened on the day when God's sons came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them. Yahweh said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”

Touche' And that's just one of the scriptures that call angels “sons of God”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (karmarie @ April 15 2011,17:36)

…………who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel……….

Again, touche'.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ April 15 2011,18:38)

Job 38:7   When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?   The morning stars are considered Angels, and they shouted for joy, when God created the earth…

Many translations actually render “sons of God” as “angels” in this verse, for they know what is meant.

I've asked Keith before, but here goes again:

Keith, who are these sons of God who shouted for joy at the founding of the earth?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 15 2011,21:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,08:40) But don't forget that Jesus is now a spirit being and still an aggelos of his God.  So while Jesus once was a human aggelos, or “messenger of God”, he is now a spirit aggelos, or “angel of God”. Hey Wm and SF, Are you guys on board with this statement, or do you have a rebuttal? mike Rebuttalllll, How is Jesus still a Messenger of God when he rules over everything?

Hi D,

Don't forget that everything is under the feet of Jesus. But when we say “everything”, it is clear that this doesn't include God Himself, who put everything under Jesus' feet.

Also don't forget that God is the “head of Christ”.

No matter how high you want to place Jesus, just remember that his God is always going to be higher than that place. And Jesus will always be a servant and messenger of his God.

mike

[kerwin]

T8,

There are at least three books of Enoch.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,11:36)

Kerwin Quote Since the prophets spoke the word of God because they were carried allong by the Holy Spirit it would seem clear that the Spirit of God is the foremost messenger of God. Ex 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said Ex 20:1 And God spoke all these words: Ex 19:18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, Ex 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him. Ex 23:20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared Ex 31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, Ex 31:2 “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, Ex 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts— Ex 31:4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, Ex 31:5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship did those scriptures show you reality? Pierre

Pierre,

I am not sure what you regard as reality but I do know that anyone who speaks or acts in the name of the Lord does so because they are carried along by the Spirit of God.

That is why Jesus said that he is in the Father and the Father is in him.  

That is also why it is called the unity of the Spirit.

I am not saying that the Spirit of God is a person though it does have characteristics of a person.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,22:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 14 2011,23:35) He is a messenger of Himself afterall. That's just silly.    What message did God ever deliver for someone else? mike

Mike,
The Holy Spirit is a messenger of God…God delivers His own message by His Holy Spirit. That is how we received the Holy scriptures.

Also, you mentioned that aggelos simply means messenger but not in this verse:

Matt 24:36
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

In this verse, angels seem to be a group of heavenly beings distinct from the Son and Father.

Kathi

[SimplyForgiven]

Exactly Kathi,

Finally we are hitting the crux of the matter

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 15 2011,22:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2011,08:26) Quote (Lightenup @ April 14 2011,23:25) I don't recall if this verse was mentioned but I think that it is pretty clear that the Son of God is not considered an angel. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.  If the Son was an angel then saying 'nor the Son' would be redundant. Hi Kathi, Good point.  I think Dennison was trying to say something like that too. We know Jesus is an angel of God because he is a messenger of God, and that's all the word really means. But your scripture, and Hebrews 1:4 seem to separate him from the group of beings called “angels”. So now what do we do?   mike I did make that point as well. (should i make time to respond to all my posts today…hmmmm)

Good Dennison!

And Mike,
So now what do we do? We stop grouping the only begotten Son in with the group of angels and making it seem like the Only Begotten Son is one of the angel beings. A prophet can be a messenger, a teacher can be a messenger, but not every messenger is an only begotten son of God, only one is, that would be what 'only' means. The rest can be considered sons of God but not by a begettal which brings a literal son.

I know Mike, that you understand most of this…I added it for others that don't get it yet. Just because some are called sons does not mean they are literal sons and it doesn't mean they aren't either. An only begotten Son is not the first of many sons. An only begotten Son is the first and last of the literal sons of God…there is only one. The rest come by different ways, either creation or adoption.

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 16 2011,00:38)

Exactly Kathi, Finally we are hitting the crux of the matter

Dennison,
I hope so!
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,23:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2011,15:49) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2011,16:06) If Jesus is and angel, so is His Father because like begets like. Kathi So true! Scriptures and nature itself clearly teach “every seed bearing seed bears after its own kind”. (Gen 1:11, 21) No where in the scriptures do we have the Father calling angels sons and no where in scripture do we have an angel refering to the Father as Father. This is a damnable heresy IMO straight from Watchtower that degrades the Son as to his divine nature. No follower of Christ in the scripture calls Jesus their Angel or as far as I know it is never mentioned by any of the Forefathers. That would be interesting to look into.   WJ Whoa there!  Slow down big guy!   “Aggelos” simply means “messenger”.  So if Jesus EVER delivered a message from God, then Jesus is an angel of God. This part you and Kathi can't possibly deny, no matter how much you want to. The part about how Jesus was unique from the other spiritual messengers of God is another issue altogether. But you can't use the “like begets like” argument until you establish that “messenger” is some kind of species or something. mike

Mike,
I don't think that I have ever denied that Christ was a messenger. What I deny is that only begotten Son of God is made equal to and one of the group of beings commonly called angels just because He is also a messenger.

Do you understand?

Kathi

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (t8 @ April 15 2011,18:23)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,18:02) As for the Book of Enoch I don't read it because it's uncanonical in a lot of bibles and it contradicts the fact that there's only one Archangel mentioned in the bible. However, there is no verse in scripture that says there is only one archangel. If the bible identifies one, it is not meant to be taken that there is only one. Also, at least 2 biblical writers quote from the Book of Enoch and a number of copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls too.

I beg to differ but who quoted the book of Enoch in the bible?

[Istari]

SF and Mike,
Regarding the 'card' that is cast away… Do you not read that the stone that was cast away became the chief cornerstone of the temple of God!

Sf, your childish knee-jerk justifies your childish level of thought.
And Mike, when I said you never agree with your opponent – is this the time you choose to agree with one?
Well, 'Measure for Measure' as Shakespeare wrote…!

And Mike, I see you have joined the Ill-distillers of Scriptures turning every truth into points of discord and dispute for promoting your own unjoined up idea of reality.

No matter how much I outline what SONSHIP is you find another twist to refute it – therefore your thoughts are not on understanding but simply to say against…

Son of God – is … All heavenly Spirits because they hear and do the works of God – their Father
Son of God – is … The Scriptures say… You can read it yourself in Romans 8:14 – Mankind who hear and do the works of God – their Father
Son of God – is … The Scriptures show Adam to be (At his creation) Son of God because he was Sinless
Son of God – is … God 'Adopts' (Raises up, Begets) those of mankind to Immortal and Spiritual Sonship who die (Put off the flesh) and are reborn in Spirit (Hence Jesus said 'Ye must be reborn')

And 'Jesus is an Angel'… Mike, Mike… Jesus is no longer an Angel (For to which of the Angeks did God ever say…'
Moreover, just GIVING something to someone else does not make them a Messenger.
God gave the revelation to Jesus and Jesus SENT his Angel to deliver it to John…

Mike, why do you find it so hard to hear the words of truth and abide in it – why do you find it amusing to dabble in deceit?
– oh, yes… 'Lie down with Trinitarian dogs – wake up with Satanic fleas'
You are adopting the deceitful ways of those you entangle yourself with – a frightened animal who fears the light of truth favouring the darkness of your own diversive thoughts.

Seek not to destroy goodness – but to build upon it.
Seek the truth of that which is spoken – eat it as food for your spiritual growth and drink for your spiritual thirst… Shake off the dust of iniquity from your head and lean not on thine own understanding but by revelation from the Holy Spirit from God through Jesus Christ.

Mike, walk along the road to Damascus and be converted from your persecution of the testament of Jesus Christ, given to him by God, his Father, and testified to us through the life and death of the Saints as written in the Scriptures!

[Baker]

T8 I think that there were at least three Archangels called Cherub, in the Bible, at one time. Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer who became Satan.

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Exd 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Exd 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims

Peace and love Irene

[Istari]

The Holy Mount[ain] of God is the 'Throne' of God.
The Stones of fire are the 'Holy Sons' of God (Perhaps the Archangels)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 15 2011,23:38)

Exactly Kathi, Finally we are hitting the crux of the matter

Hey, stop using my words and being right. I'm not use to that.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 16 2011,00:52)

Quote (t8 @ April 15 2011,18:23) Also, at least 2 biblical writers quote from the Book of Enoch and a number of copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls too. I beg to differ but who quoted the book of Enoch in the bible?

I know Jude did, and I believe Paul did once but I can't put my mind around his quote right now.

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones……

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ April 16 2011,06:58)

Son of God – is … The Scriptures say… You can read it yourself in Romans 8:14 – Mankind who hear and do the works of God – their Father

Okay Istari,

You have stated this claim, and showed the scripture to support your claim.  That is how things should be done here.  But why then when I point out that John the Baptist also heard and did the works of God would you have to change the requirements to “also sinless”?

It seems to me like I made my point, and you don't like it, so now you're adding things into your claim that AREN'T supported by scripture.  See?  You started off right, but are willing to change scripture in order to be “right” on this issue.

Istari, consider this scripture:

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Did Jesus place John even above Abraham and Moses here?  If any human ever had the right to be called a son of God, I think John the Baptist had that right, don't you?

The rest of your post is mindless fluff designed to belittle people, and therefore is not worthy of a response.

mike

[Istari]

Mike,
Abraham 'seeing' the day of the Lord does not mean a physical vision – the dead are dead!
It means to see metaphorically!
To see in vision that which is indescribable to others of the time.

Why do you drive nonsense into everything you read from anyone else?

Your whole demeanour is to wound the word of God, to Greive the Holy Spirit… Mike, I am urging you not to take this line…
When the truth is revealed of your twisting you simply walk away as if nothing happened… Fortunately amnesia means no one appears to remembers your faux pas which means you can carry on in your deceit after hiding your stained garment.

“Seeing Jesus' day” is well documented so it was rather silly to make your claim, as was 'To which of the Angels…'
Mike, WHY DO you make these disengeuous claims when they can and are so easily checked?
What do get out of deformity of knowledge and Scriptures?
It is no wonder there is no ending to your arguments – how can there be if you don't speak truth. Sooner or later you find that the pieces you create don't fit the truth – so you just bend them to your needs… And then get irate when you are found put – you are really sad!!

Timeline timeline timeline… Always use a Timeline to keep your ideas in synch with Scriptures…and don't try to forcefit your views – go with the flow and don't pretend what you don't know.

Shoot your arrows into the red
And not into the blues
Alter your thinking instead
Don't trust to your own views!

You make false patterns with Scripture
Can't see the model picture
One thought here – a different one there
Mike, do you really have no Godly fear?

So gather bits of truth all in one place
Fit them quickly but not as in a race
Seek out what's missing
with supplicant prayer
And by his own will
God will certainly hear'ya!

[mikeboll64]

Okay all,

Here's the scorecard so far:
Galatians 4:14
…….you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

This scripture places Jesus in the “angel” category without a doubt.  Add to this the fact that any messenger of God is also an angel of God, for that's what the word means.  And not only did Jesus speak God's words to those on earth when he was flesh, but Revelation 1:1 shows he was still delivering God's words to us even after he had been raised to the right hand of God.

We have this verse:
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say,
  “You are my Son;
  today I have become your Father”?

But this one is inconclusive, for the meaning could also be “to which ONE of the angels did God say………..”

Then we have:
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
This one is also inconclusive because it could mean “became as much superior to the OTHER angels……….”  Similar to the fact that “King of kings” doesn't exclude that one from being a King himself.  Here is another example of this:

2 Kings
27 In the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the year Awel-Marduk became king of Babylon, he released Jehoiachin king of Judah from prison. He did this on the twenty-seventh day of the twelfth month. 28 He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

The Hebrew text doesn't have the word “other”, but most translations contain it because it is implied.  It really says “set his throne above the throne of the kings in Babylon”.  Without the word “other”, it would seem like Jehoiachin was something other than one of the captured kings living in Babylon, but we know this is not the case.

And we have:
Matthew 24:36
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
t8 made a good point about this one by switching “Son” for “Michael”.  But also consider that the Son wasn't “in heaven” at the time he said this, so that also could be the differentiating factor here.

“between” has brought up:
1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Does this mean an archangel will herald the arrival of Jesus?  Or is this “voice of the archangel” the voice of Jesus himself?

“between” backs up 4:16 with this one:
John 5:28
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice………..
But again, this doesn't eliminate the theory that the archangel could herald the arrival of Jesus, and then after being announced, Jesus speaks.

Are there scriptures I've neglected to add?

My conclusion is that “the angels” are heavenly spirit beings who do the will of God.  Jesus is also a heavenly spirit being who does the will of God, and so fits into that group nicely.  Is he an archangel?  Maybe……..but if so, then he is like the four star General compared to the other “regular” generals because he is superior to all the rest.

And we can't forget that all of those other generals, along with everything else in existence, came to be through Jesus.  He is also the only being to come DIRECTLY from God Himself, the only one worthy to open the scroll, and the only angel to be placed as “Lord of lords and King of kings” by his God……………among many other things that distinguish Jesus from the other heavenly spirit beings.

I don't see Jesus as “Michael”, for I see no scriptural reason to come to this conclusion.

That's my take on it so far.

peace,
mike

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