Is jesus god the angel??

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2011,01:35)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,09:40) Hey Istari, Why do you suppose “THE Son of God” instead of “a son of God”? mike Adopted as spiritual sons vs. natural spiritual son.

Hi Kerwin,

I meant as in opposition to the Jews who claimed God was the only Father they had. So if in their mind, they were sons of God, why did they get so mad when Jesus said he was the Son of God?

And the distiguishing word is “THE” in the case of Jesus, as opposed to “A” in the case of anyone else.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ April 13 2011,13:48)

“ALL WHO DO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD ARE SONS OF GOD” 1) The Angels in Heaven are sons of God by the Spirit 2) Jesus is the second Adam, the ONLY SON OF GOD IN THE FLESH

Tell me what scripture says that Jesus is THE Son of God……….the only one in the flesh at the time, that is.  If angels are also sons of God, and they were alive while Jesus was on earth, then how is Jesus THE Son of God?

And even if you add your own unfounded interpretation in that Jesus was the only son of God “IN THE FLESH AT THE TIME”, you still have to deal with John the Baptist.  He was called a PROPHET of God by Jesus himself.  How many true prophets don't actually hear the word of God?  And “hearing the word of God” is the stipulation you're using to make one a son of God, right?  So if John was hearing the word of God while Jesus was on the earth, then I ask you again, Why is Jesus THE Son of God instead of A son of God?

Quote (Istari @ April 13 2011,13:48)

So, also your idea that Jesus is an 'Angelos' is wrong because Jesus is no longer MESSENGING for his God,

Go re-read the first verse of Revelation and then tell me that.

Quote (Istari @ April 13 2011,13:48)

And further, when Jesus was raised to that position, what did God his Father say to him: 'You are my Son, Today I have become your father' for unto NONE OF THE ANGELS did he ever say that!

You are confusing the words of the scriptures.  God never said those words when Jesus was raised.  He said it 2700 years ago in Psalm 2:7.  He alluded to His Son Jesus in Proverbs 30:4.  He said it after Jesus was baptized, and during the transfiguration on the mountain.  But it is not recorded that God said “You are my Son” when Jesus was raised.

And Hebrews 1 doesn't say “NONE OF THE ANGELS”, but instead says, “To which ONE of the angels did God AT ANY TIME EVER say…………..”

And we all know the answer to that question, don't we?  The answer is “Jesus”.  He's the only angel of God to whom God said “You are my Son……….I have begotten you”.

mike

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar. Hi between, I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is.  The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions.  I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God. But thanks for the “atta-boy”.   mike

I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?

[kerwin]

Mike,

According to Philo a Jew the Word(Spirit of God) is the first begotten of God and thus the “archetypal and governing idea of creation”

By calling himselve the Son he claimed to incarnate the “archetypal and governing idea of creation” acording to that Jewish tenet of Philo's.

That did anger Jews in at least one case as as according to scripture they perceived he was setting himself up as equal to God.  

Here is my source on Philo's belief as well as an understanding of the term “first born”.

[karmarie]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,12:48)

Quote (Istari @ April 13 2011,13:48) And further, when Jesus was raised to that position, what did God his Father say to him: 'You are my Son, Today I have become your father' for unto NONE OF THE ANGELS did he ever say that! You are confusing the words of the scriptures.  God never said those words when Jesus was raised.  He said it 2700 years ago in Psalm 2:7.  He alluded to His Son Jesus in Proverbs 30:4.  He said it after Jesus was baptized, and during the transfiguration on the mountain.  But it is not recorded that God said “You are my Son” when Jesus was raised.

Hi Mike.

As I have said before, the best thing to do is use the Literal Translation, or lately Iv been using the World English Bible which I have found closest to the YLT.

Regarding Jesus as begotten from the dead,

Acts 13

28 -Though they found no cause for death, they still asked Pilate to have him killed.

29 -When they had fulfilled all things that were written about him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.

30 –But God raised him from the dead,

31 -and he was seen for many days by those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses to the people.

32 -We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers,

33 -that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the *second psalm*, 'You are my Son. *Today* I have become your father.'

34 -“Concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he has spoken thus: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'

35 -Therefore he says also in another psalm, 'You will not allow your Holy One to see decay.'

36 – For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay.

37 -But he whom God raised up saw no decay.

[Baker]

To All!  I had asked Georg, if He thought Jesus was an Angel.  His rely was this, and I quote:”  Is and was Jesus a Spirit Being?  Yes, He was… Are the Angels Spirit Beings?  Yes, they are.  are they all called Son's of God?  Yes they are. What we do have to remember that there are levels of greatness.  Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.  Then we have Archangels called Cherubs, like Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer who became Satan.  Jesus is above them.,.,..I also believe that Jesus volunteered to die for us….No prove of that either, just IMO  Now Jesus has immortality, which I don;t think Angels have.  I can't prove that the Angels do, but there is no Scriptures, except that Lucifer or Satan and His Angels will go to the Lake of Fire, and will burn up, along with all wicked men…..
Peace and Love Irene
I know how difficult it is to believe that Jesus is an Angel, but these are the facts…..

[terraricca]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar. Hi between, I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is.  The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions.  I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God. But thanks for the “atta-boy”.   mike I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?

Bt

Christ is not the angel Michael

Pierre

[Istari]

Mike,
You are a 'Card', a real playing card, in fact, a Joker! You, Jack, WJ and SF… The four Jokers in this forum pack!

Your last post proved it all…

Irene, I've been saying Jesus WAS Angel for sometime now. Have you never read it. – this is a
Amazing.

All I can say is , like Kathi, if, at least you are saying the same thing from another source, then that is good.

It's very simple: all in heaven who do the work of God, are Angels, because that is what the word means… 'Angel' means messenger and all who 'Mesenger' for God, are Angels… Was Jesus SENT to do the work of God, to deliver a message from God? Yes, therefore he is Angel.

I have said that EMOTIONAL feelings for Jesus being SON OF GOD makes people say, 'No, he can't be because he is Son of God'. But who reads and links the saying, 'Even though he is a Son, while he is a child he is no better than a servant' meaning, even being Son of God, he is still treated like the servants of the master…

Emotional attachment clouds the judgement!

Mike is getting extreme weird in his posts such that he is causing himself much pain in his dealings with Scriptures. His attempt at a way out is to accuse me of insulting him, giving him an excuse to try and give me another block.

I see others directly throwing dirt in his face and yet nothing is done to them but the most innocent thing I say to him and he accuses me of hurting his feelings… Of course, there could be another reason for these deceitful accusations? Perhaps truth is not what Mike wants to hear. So those who abuse him and speak falseness are speak 'friendly words' to him in their abuse of him!!

[Istari]

Mike,
Where in Revelations does it say that Jesus is an Angel?

Mike,
What is the flow of verses in Hebrews 1?
Is it not ALL ABOUT Jesus being raised from the dead and estaished as King and High Priest to God?
Is this not aligned with three other Scripture verses that also relate to God raising Jesus from the dead and seating him at His right hand.

Mike, when Jesus completed his great commission, in your mind then, what did God do to Jesus more than he could have done if he were ALREADY this great BEGOTTEN SON of God?

And those who are ALSO to be BEGOTTEN of God – Mike, is God going to give birth to them also?

And how is the Father 'Becoming' his Father if Jesus didn't already exist, therefore the begetting is not 'physical' but Spiritual as with Paul BECOMING the Spritual Father of ONESIMUS, as ONESIMUS WAS BEGOTTEN OF SAINT PAUL: on that day, SAINT PAUL would have said, 'Onesimus, I take you as MY SON, today, I have become your Father' (Fractals, Mike, Fractals)
Saint Paul did not give birth to Onesimus… And Onesimus was already in existence when he was Begotten to SAINT PAUL.
oh, SAINT PAUL wasn't a SAINT when he wrote the Scriptures letters…!!

And Mike: Where did you get those words:
'To which ONE of the Angels did God ever say…' meaning 'To ONLY THIS ANGEL…' when the verses goes on to say… 'But of the angels he says…'

Mike, are you ok. I'm concerned about you and how your mind is turning to mush with the debates you are holding with WJ, KJ and SF…

[Istari]

Mike,
If nothing else, please explain Hebrews 5:5-6 in your own understanding.

'Christ did not glorify himself to become High Priest but it was HE (His Father and God) who said to him:'You are my Son, Today I have forgotten you'

And verse 8:'Thought he was A Son…'

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,03:47)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar. Hi between, I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is.  The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions.  I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God. But thanks for the “atta-boy”.   mike I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael? Bt Christ is not the angel Michael Pierre

If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 14 2011,00:09)

I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael?

Hi Between,

From NETNotes:  According to Jewish intertestamental literature (such as 1 En. 20), Michael was one of seven archangels.

And Michael can't be higher than Jesus:
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Also,
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now I know the Witnesses like to think this explicitely says that Jesus is “the archangel”.  I see it as one of the archangels is heralding Jesus' arrival from heaven.  Like Michael is yelling, “Hear Ye, Hear Ye!  Jesus is coming!”  

But consider this:  If the voice of the archangel is the voice of Jesus, then the trumpet of God is also the trumpet of Jesus, making him God as well as an archangel.  

Food for thought.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2011,01:57)

Mike, According to Philo a Jew the Word(Spirit of God) is the first begotten of God and thus the “archetypal and governing idea of creation” By calling himselve the Son he claimed to incarnate the “archetypal and governing idea of creation” acording to that Jewish tenet of Philo's. That did anger Jews in at least one case as as according to scripture they perceived he was setting himself up as equal to God.   Here is my source on Philo's belief as well as an understanding of the term “first born”.

Hi Kerwin,

I don't know where to start. First of all, you are claiming that God's Holy Spirit is a separate entity from God, and also His only begotten Son.

Second, the Holy Spirit is the OTHER comforter Jesus said God would send after he left. That would be a senseless statement if the Holy Spirit was already standing right there next to the disciples.

Third, Jesus said people could slander him but not the Holy Spirit. How could one discern the difference if the Holy Spirit was Jesus, the only begotten Son of God?

And don't forget that the Word BECAME flesh. It was never said that the Word “came to be IN someone who was flesh”.

mike

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,14:18)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 14 2011,00:09) I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael? Hi Between, From NETNotes:  According to Jewish intertestamental literature (such as 1 En. 20), Michael was one of seven archangels. And Michael can't be higher than Jesus: Hebrews 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Also, 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Now I know the Witnesses like to think this explicitely says that Jesus is “the archangel”.  I see it as one of the archangels is heralding Jesus' arrival from heaven.  Like Michael is yelling, “Hear Ye, Hear Ye!  Jesus is coming!”   But consider this:  If the voice of the archangel is the voice of Jesus, then the trumpet of God is also the trumpet of Jesus, making him God as well as an archangel.   Food for thought.   mike

John 5:28 . 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice.

the only voice mentioned in the thessalionians verse is the Archangel's. As for Jesus having God's trumpet, Jesus is also called the word of God and first and last etc. Does that make him God or follow with the angelic name Michael meaning “who is like god”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (karmarie @ April 14 2011,02:56)

Hi Mike. As I have said before, the best thing to do is use the Literal Translation, or lately Iv been using the World English Bible which I have found closest to the YLT.

Hi Kar,

And as I've told you before, just because Young chose to name his translation “Literal Translation” does not mean it holds secrets that other translations don't know about.  It is the simply the way that one man thought the Hebrew and Greek words should be translated.

In America we have a frozen yogurt company called “TCBY”.  It stands for “The Country's Best Yogurt”.  It doesn't mean it really is, just because that's what they named the company.  Get it?  Young's translation holds no secrets over any other just because he used “Literal” in the title.

How does Young render John 1:1?  Because the LITERAL translation is:  in beginning was the word and the word was toward the god and god was the word

If Young's doesn't say that, then it isn't really “literal”.  

Quote (karmarie @ April 14 2011,02:56)

32 -We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 -that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the *second psalm*, 'You are my Son. *Today* I have become your father.'

And I have tried and tried to explain this to you.  Read verse 32, Kar.  What PROMISE did God make to the fathers?  Did God EVER promise to metaphorically beget a son?  NO!  What he promised was a savior and deliverer.  That's the promise that was fulfilled by raising Jesus from the dead.  And I've showed you this scripture about Paul a number of times also:

Acts 9:20
At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

The reason Paul keeps quoting Psalm 2:7 is not to specify any particular day that Jesus was begotten, but to apply that scripture TO Jesus in an effort to teach that Jesus WAS in fact the begotten Son of God mentioned in that Psalm.

Kar, if you only had the OT scriptures to use as support, and you were desparately trying to convince people that Jesus was God's Son, what scripture would you use?

You see?  There aren't a lot to choose from, are there?  You assume that people of that time period just “knew” Jesus was God's Son like we do.  But they didn't have the NT to go by at that time.  Paul was speaking to people who would be saying, “What Son?  I don't know of any 'Son of God'.”  So Paul was saying, “Check out Psalm 2:7 dudes.  Jesus is this begotten Son of God that is spoken of there!”

Kar, John 3:18 has Jesus clearly saying that those who had already not belived in his name were already condemned because they had not believed (past tense) in the name of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

How could anyone already be condemned for not believing in the name of someone who didn't yet exist?  

This is off topic here.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 14 2011,21:32)

John 5:28 . 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice. the only voice mentioned in the thessalionians verse is the Archangel's. As for Jesus having God's trumpet, Jesus is also called the word of God and first and last etc. Does that make him God or follow with the angelic name Michael meaning “who is like god”?

So 5:28 means that Jesus is the archangel?  Couldn't the archangel have heralded his arrival, and then Jesus begins to speak so that the dead hear his voice?

I see what you imply, but one doesn't NECESSARILY have anything to do with the other.  Surely you can see that?

And what about the seven archangels mentioned by Enoch, who was quoted a couple of times in scripture? Was Jesus just one of seven equal archangels?

Also, you didn't comment on Heb 1:4.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ April 14 2011,15:36)

Mike is getting extreme weird in his posts such that he is causing himself much pain in his dealings with Scriptures. His attempt at a way out is to accuse me of insulting him, giving him an excuse to try and give me another block. I see others directly throwing dirt in his face and yet nothing is done to them but the most innocent thing I say to him and he accuses me of hurting his feelings… Of course, there could be another reason for these deceitful accusations? Perhaps truth is not what Mike wants to hear. So those who abuse him and speak falseness are speak 'friendly words' to him in their abuse of him!!

Istari,

Look at my last response to you in this thread, and back up your words here………or eat them.  My last response to you in this thread is the second post on page 19.  Show me what I said in that post that makes your accusations truthful, or admit you lied in an effort to divert from the points I DID make.

I can barely even stand to discourse with you.  You always prefer to personally accuse or belittle or look down upon others than to actually address the points they make.  How sad for you to feel so inferior that you must attempt to bring others down so you can feel better about yourself.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ April 14 2011,16:00)

Mike, Where in Revelations does it say that Jesus is an Angel?

Was Jesus speaking a message he got from God to others in Rev 1:1?  Therefore “messenger of God”, therefore “angel of God”.

The rest of your post deals with when Jesus was begotten.  We were just having this discussion in the “over all creation” thread, but you bailed from that discussion.

Either gather what info you can from my post to Kar on the subject, or answer the question from me that you bailed from in the other thread.

This is not a “begotten” thread.  This is a thread about Jesus being an angel of God.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 14 2011,20:59)

If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.

I must admit that you got me thinking.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,20:59)

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2011,03:47) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 15 2011,00:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2011,09:15) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 13 2011,00:23) Hmm as a JW this is a really strong argument for Jesus being the highest angel possible or Michael the Arch. Thanks Mike, The rebuttals are getting punched in the face with your fist of grammar. Hi between, I am not a JW, although I agree with them on almost every scriptural point there is.  The Michael thing is one of the few exceptions.  I believe that Michael was created through Jesus, as were the other heavenly messengers of God. But thanks for the “atta-boy”.   mike I have a question? if according to the Hebrew and greek angel means messenger and Jesus is not the chief messenger(arch). Does that mean there's a messenger higher then Jesus namely Michael? Bt Christ is not the angel Michael Pierre If the hebrew and greek word for angel mean messenger and Jesus is a messenger of God, then Jesus is an angel period. If he isn't the chief messenger then the Islamists were right and i'm not accepting that.

B

WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible.  However, when he is referred to, he is in action.  In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons.  By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name–“Who is Like God?”  
He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS)

I have answered that question to David the JW and i believe you too.
you can see were the comment of David changes the scriptures by saying “the great Prince ” wen it says “one of the princes”
Pierre

[Author]

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