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I am just passing through this thread and not much interested as most of the arguments put forth here are simply the speculations
We’ll duh, of course interpreting prophecy is speculating. Sometimes you get it right and sometimes you don’t.
Adam, you make me laugh with your comments.
They sort of go like this:
“Another myth of Christianity”.
I’ll let you into a little secret okay.
Christianity has got heaps of stuff wrong. Why is that? Because Jesus is the truth, not Christianity. Christianity is merely men trying to understand the truth. Sometimes you understand it, other times no. And sometimes it just hasn’t been revealed yet.
Your constant barrage of Christian myth statements could easily be applied to science too. Science has got so much wrong too, but that doesn’t make science all bad does it.
I think you need to take a chill pill Adam.
Either accept that we are all mere men trying to work stuff out and learn off each other, or write it off completely and move onto something that you believe can give you the truth. Why waste your time arguing over the something you believe is not real. Personally speaking, I wouldn’t give 5 minutes of my time to arguing over the existence of Big Foot.
Here is another Christian interpretation of Revelation 17;
The Seven Kings represented by the heads in Rev 17:9-10 are:
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
Vespasian
Titus
According to the article “List of Roman Emperors” on britannica.com, Titus ruled for only a couple of years—a short time in comparison to the other emperors identified above.I don’t see seven empires. Just one empire.
I don’t see seven empires. Just one empire.
Why is it required? I think it may be required to suit your idea of so called Seven wonders , Seven World Empires?
Either accept that we are all mere men trying to work stuff out and learn off each other, or write it off completely and move onto something that you believe can give you the truth. Why waste your time arguing over the something you believe is not real. Personally speaking, I wouldn’t give 5 minutes of my time to arguing over the existence of Big Foot.
Hi Proclaimer, yes you may laugh at my arguments but you know I bring them from reality than myth making. The history of Christianity is the proof for those wonderful speculations on the so called predictions of Biblical writers. I only investigate on these texts and the so called predictions whether they are really applicable to our timeline of 21st Century.
Yes please don’t bother yourself for arguing over existence of so called Big Foot as you mentioned above.
Hi Proclaimer
For the third time
If you are ok with that
the FOURTH beast (Daniel 7) = IRON LEGS and IRON FEET + CLAY (Dan. 2)
Do you agree that the previous 3 beasts of Daniel 7 correspond to the metals of Dan 2 (brass, silver, gold)
GOLD. /LION
SILVER / BEAR
BRASS / LEOPARDGod bless
Hi Proclaimer, yes you may laugh at my arguments but you know I bring them from reality than myth making. The history of Christianity is the proof for those wonderful speculations on the so called predictions of Biblical writers. I only investigate on these texts and the so called predictions whether they are really applicable to our timeline of 21st Century.
I see. So because men try to interpret prophecy and have a wide range of views, that makes biblical prophecy a fable.
I’ll put it like you did.
Hi gadam, yes you may laugh at my arguments but you know I bring them from reality than myth making. The history of Science is the proof for those wonderful speculations on the so called predictions of Scientific writers. I only investigate on these texts and the so called predictions whether they are really applicable to modern time.
In other words gadam, even science goes through a similar process. The greatest of them all Newton thought the only constant in the universe was time till Einstein came along and said it was the speed of light. Newton also thought gravity was a force till Einstein said it was merely ripples in space-time. But regardless of being right or wrong, that is progress.
The thing about prophecy or science is that you know it when it happens or you can repeat the experiment again and again. Up till then, you can have a fair idea or you could be wildly out with your prediction.
I have no problem with speculation myself whether that is in prophecy or science because that is the process of investigation. You have to speculate to begin with. The problem are those teachers or scientists who insist that their theory is definitely correct or have no decent reason as to why they take this or that view, (like gene). We can only be sure when it happens. And of course, if the prophecy comes with a warning, then those who ignore it will know it for sure too, but they will suffer. I think that is what prophecy is about. It gives you an idea. Comes with a warning. Then catches out those who didn’t care.
None of what you say makes prophecy a myth. This part of your argument is illogical.
I believe God is true and men try to understand God and get somethings right and others wrong. But if we are balanced and righteous, then I believe the light increases for such people. Whereas the wicked go into darkness.
Do you agree that the previous 3 beasts of Daniel 7 correspond to the metals of Dan 2 (brass, silver, gold)
GOLD. /LION
SILVER / BEAR
BRASS / LEOPARDI would have to check that.
Mountains are Kingdoms
Q: Why is it required? I think it may be required to suit your idea of so called Seven wonders , Seven World Empires?
A: Seven mountains and also seven kings.
Daniel saw empires and the head of gold was the king.
In case you were not aware, a king represents a kingdom.
If you judge a king, you judge the empire he represents.
Otherwise you are simply judging him as a man like you or me in which case you wouldn’t be talking about heads or mountains right.
You even said yourself that Revelations was copied from Daniel and you know Daniel is about kingdoms. So argue with yourself on that one.
You even said yourself that Revelations was copied from Daniel and you know Daniel is about kingdoms. So argue with yourself on that one.
Hi Proclaimer, I always assume you as a scholar on Biblical doctrines. So please analyze the texts based on their historical and theological contexts. Also please look at the internal insights given by the writers than comparing with other writings as Biblical books are written by different authors in different religious and historical backgrounds. I don’t think they are in uniform in concepts and views.
I think I have already argued with you on these queries of yours on both Daniel and Revelation. So please look at the texts of Daniel and Revelation in their own texts you will get the mind of the writer than ours.
Thank you.
Seven Gentile empires surrounding Israel & The Great Sea
So please look at the texts of Daniel and Revelation in their own texts you will get the mind of the writer than ours.
I believe they are both talking about kingdoms for the reasons I have stated. When I look at the Great Sea, there have been seven empires in succession in that part of the world, (where Israel exists). Today there is no empire. That ended after the Great War. That succession is dead for now. So we await a resurrection if this interpretation is correct.
My conclusion is drawn from the symbology used in the verses and how the same symbols are used elsewhere in scripture; strong clues from within the text itself as there is often an interpretation that follows; and 2000 years of history and more in the case of Daniel.
Today, we are in the most privileged position to interpret these prophecies. That said, we are not privy to the future from here. Some great clues may unfold.
I do not entertain theories that ignore the fact that mountains are empires. There are other rules that sink other theories for me.
Finally, I do find it interesting that this interpretation fits with history. If there were only three empires in history in that part of the world, then history wouldn’t testify to this interpretation unless you held the belief that 4 more empires were to come. So the theory I put forth means we await a kingdom located around the Mediterranean.
I do not entertain theories that ignore the fact that mountains are empires. There are other rules that sink other theories for me.
In fact this was done by the writer of the book of Revelation in Rev 17:9-10 stating that the seven mountains are the seven kings. He was talking about the great city of his time, Rome which was the center of the attention for trade and power. I have already brought out my arguments against your view of the seven world empires of your choice starting from Egypt and ending with Ottoman or Islam.
Finally, I do find it interesting that this interpretation fits with history. If there were only three empires in history in that part of the world, then history wouldn’t testify to this interpretation unless you held the belief that 4 more empires were to come. So the theory I put forth means we await a kingdom located around the Mediterranean.
Yes the book of Daniel was talking about only four Kingdoms not seven as you repeatedly argue by bringing Revelation to your support. In fact the writer of Revelation copied the genre and symbols from Daniel. But he was concentrating on the fourth beast of Dan 7 which was the fourth kingdom and was detailed in Rev 13 & 17. The writers of these two books may agree on few symbols but not on their themes. The Four Kingdoms of Daniel were Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece and Rome was no where found in this book. Both Jews and Christians clubbed Media and Persia as second Kingdom to include Rome. This was required for them as the so called God’s Kingdom, the fifth could not be established after Greece the original fourth Kingdom. But the writer of Daniel never hinted or imagined such view in his book. Please look at the texts of Dan 8 and 11 you will understand my point. The writer of Revelation was concentrating on the fourth beast, the fourth kingdom by bringing details on its seven kings into picture in Rev 17. The scarlet beast was existed but was not present at the time of John and was expected to come out of the bottomless pit. The historians interpreted these texts to Roman Emperor Nero as his name in Hebrew also quantifiable into a numerical 666 which the writer of Revelation hinted in Chap 13.
Your imagination of the seven world empires starting from Egypt and ending with Ottoman or Islam is no where found in these two books unless you force these texts to suit your ideas.
In fact this was done by the writer of the book of Revelation in Rev 17:9-10 stating that the seven mountains are the seven kings. He was talking about the great city of his time, Rome which was the center of the attention for trade and power.
Revelation
“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are ALSO seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
The seven heads represents two things.
- Seven kings;
- The hills that the woman sits atop.
Daniel
“This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
- The gold represents a king.
What a king represents
So we have a match here in that both Daniel and Revelations is talking about kings.
Later we see in Daniel that each metal is actually more than the king but empires.
“After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours.”
Conclusion, the king being referred to was Nebuchadnezzar, but he is representing the kingdom he is king of. You can clearly see this in the text and in the verse I have quoted above.
“After you, another kingdom will arise”
‘YOU / KING is talking about Kingdoms.
Why a king means kingdom
It makes sense too. When God is chastising a King, you can bet he is chastising the empire he rules and holding the king responsible for that. Otherwise if God were judging him as a man (not the kingdom) then he wouldn’t need to mention ‘heads, kings, or mountains’. It would be simply be personal about the king only. So why does the king represent the empire? Because a man is responsible for the kingdom. The kingdom is not a person. You can’t put a kingdom on trial. God judges men. When was the last time you saw India in court? If you did, there would be men that are being judged.
Mountains are Kingdoms
Further, no matter how you argue this, mountains are kingdoms in scripture. Prophecy draws much from symbols because prophecy is written in a code. It doesn’t speak in the language that you want. It doesn’t say, “After this, the Ottoman Empire will arise” for example. That would be stupid on many accounts. If it said that, then kings would just change the name of the kingdom if they didn’t like what prophecy said about them.
It is written in a style so that the wicked will not understand.
The Wicked will not understand
Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.Mark 4:12
He replied, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘ they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”Further, no matter how you argue this, mountains are kingdoms in scripture. Prophecy draws much from symbols because prophecy is written in a code. It doesn’t speak in the language that you want. It doesn’t say, “After this, the Ottoman Empire will arise” for example. That would be stupid on many accounts. If it said that, then kings would just change the name of the kingdom if they didn’t like what prophecy said about them.
It is written in a style so that the wicked will not understand.
The problem with you is you want to equate each and every text in the Biblical books to suit your ideas when the books are talking differently. Show us where was it written in Daniel and Revelation, your first kingdom is Egypt and last kingdom is Ottoman Islamic?
The allegations you are making against me equally apply to you as you are forcing the texts of these books to suit your ideas. Also please show us where the Roman Empire ever mentioned in Daniel which the Christianity forced in Daniel’s Four Kingdoms?
It will not matter what you assume or imagine here in the texts but the truth behind these ancient writings which were written to the their own audience and timeline. The so called Biblical predictions visibly failed if we look into the history. So to save these writings Christian and Jewish apologists try to twist these texts to make them applicable to our timeline which is not possible as they were never meant that way. This is my argument on these two books.
Hi Proclaimer
The symbol that characterizes Rome is THE IRON
THE FOURTH METAL OF DANIEL 2 IS IRON:And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as IRON: forasmuch as IRON breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas you sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the IRON, forasmuch as you sawest the IRON mixed with miry clay.WE SEE “THE IRON” IN DANIEL 7 FOR THE FOURTH ANIMAL: BIG IRON TEETH
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had GREAT IRON TEETH: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CLUE THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE TO THE ROMAN EMPIRE WITH THIS FOURTH BEAST.
FOURTH METAL = IRON
FOURTH ANIMAL = GREAT IRON TEETHTHE FOURTH ANIMAL CAN ONLY SYMBOLIZE ROME.
AND IF THIS IS REALLY THE CASE, THEN THE THIRD ANIMAL SYMBOLIZES GREECE,
THE SECOND SYMBOLIZE THE MEDO-PERSIA AND THE FIRST SYMBOLIZE BABYLON.WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU PROCLAIMER?
The problem with you is you want to equate each and every text in the Biblical books to suit your ideas when the books are talking differently. Show us where was it written in Daniel and Revelation, your first kingdom is Egypt and last kingdom is Ottoman Islamic?
I’ll make is simple for you as you are not grasping what I am saying or are being wilfully ignorant.
Prophecy doesn’t name any kingdom, but in Daniel, one king is identified.
So I am matching the heads with kingdoms or metals with kingdoms.
In history, there have been seven Gentile Empires around the Great Sea that encompass Israel.
In Revelation there are seven heads and seven mountains.
In scripture, mountains are kingdoms.
So I have simply looked at all the kingdoms in succession and that are located around the Great Sea.
Egypt was first and the Ottoman Empire was last.
You shouldn’t expect the Bible to name all the kingdoms. The Book of Daniel mentions the King of Babylon, then it says, after that another kingdom will arise and so on. Revelation indirectly identifies a kingdom by saying “five have fallen, ONE IS, and one yet to come.”
Your protests and arguments seem weak and your questions about what I believe are sometimes not good questions like the one I have quoted in this post.
Proclaimer and all……Unless you come to understand that where is says , this is the mind that has wisdom, means that the person see’s that John was not talking about the time he was given the prophesy , but was speaking about the condition that was existing at the end of the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus Christ, he or she can never ever understand Rev 17, nor Dan 2, Just that simple. Once you understand the correct timeline everything will fall into place clearly, and all these false teachings out there will fall away to.
But I tell you and all, you “can not”, understand the proper timeline , with out understanding that John was Spiritually transported IN TIME, to the day of the coming of “Almighty God’, the Father Himself, which takes place at the end of ’thousand’ year rule of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, in fact right at the end of that SIXTH WORLD RULING KINGDOM PERIOD.
peace and love to you all and yours…………gene
I’ll make is simple for you as you are not grasping what I am saying or are being wilfully ignorant.
Prophecy doesn’t name any kingdom, but in Daniel, one king is identified.
I also feel the same here as you are avoiding my arguments and questions.
The writer of Daniel clearly mentioned four (names) kingdoms in his texts. Please check the following verses;
1. Babylon (Dan 1: 1; 2:37) God had given a kingdom to Nebuchadnezzar
2. Media (Dan 5:31; 9:1; 11:1) A fictitious king Darius named for Median kingdom by this writer.
3. Persia ( Dan 6:28; 10:1; 10:13; 11:2) Daniel was living at the time of Cyrus the Persian king and few details of kings Persia mentioned in these verses.
4. Greece (Dan 8:21; 10:20; 11:2) Dan 11 talks about the fourth kingdom the realm of Greece in details including the little horn, the Antiochus IV.
Sorry I didn’t find your first kingdom Egypt or the sixth kingdom Rome or the last (Seventh) kingdom Ottoman the Islamic.
I have already argued much on Revelation’s beast who was none but a king named Nero the numerical name 666 which is not meant for a kingdom but for a human ruler as per Rev 13:17-18.
Rest is your pure speculations to save these two writers from failure on their so called predictions.
I am sorry to say that…
Proclaimer and all……Unless you come to understand that where is says , this is the mind that has wisdom, means that the person see’s that John was not talking about the time he was given the prophesy?
The text says otherwise. This wisdom is for counting the number of the Beast whose number is 666.
The writer of Daniel clearly mentioned four (names) kingdoms in his texts. Please check the following verses;
The prophecy regarding the metals names Nebuchadnezzar. It says something to the tune of ‘after this another kingdom will arise’. It doesn’t give a name. Of course later on, other kingdoms could well be mentioned because the Bible is also a history book.
Now to Revelation. It was given and it seems that no other writing from John came after that. It is the last book in the Bible after all. Even then, Rome was not transitioning to another kingdom like Babylon was at the time of the vision, and wouldn’t do so for another 1400 years or so. So of course it’s not going to mention a future kingdom by name. Maybe it could have happened in John lived for another 1400 years, but I’m guessing that he died before that.
Please understand that prophecy doesn’t work like you expect it to. But I guess you will keep arguing that it should work your specific way so you can debunk in your own mind using your misunderstanding so that you can continue in your happy delusion regarding prophecy and bypass any concern that there really is a God that will judge mankind.
And I haven’t seen you debunk my points that mountains are kingdoms or that kings are judged because of the kingdom they represent. So my theory or speculation still stands as a contender.
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