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Gene
Prove everything you say in the Bible, verse after verse and that it makes sense with God’s plan for us.
I am just passing through this thread and not much interested as most of the arguments put forth here are simply the speculations by misquoting the Biblical texts from Daniel and Revelation. Here are few thoughts on the Seven Kings of Revelation 17;
The description of the woman and the beast upon which she sits in 17:7–14 is one of the most difficult passages in the book of Revelation. As John marvels at the vision, an angel says, “I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her” (v. 7). The angel tells John that the beast he saw “was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction” (v. 8a). The angel then says to John, “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction” (vv. 9–11).
This text is important not only in the context of John’s vision, but also because it is potentially relevant to the question of the date of the book. We will put off discussion of verse 8a until we get to verse 11. In verse 9, the angel says that the seven heads “are seven mountains on which the woman is seated.” The reference to Rome as the city built on seven hills was widely used during the first century. It would have been familiar to John’s audience. There is no reason, then, to suppose that John meant anything other than Rome by the use of this description.
In verse 10, the angel tells John that the seven heads also symbolize seven kings, “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.” The identity of these “kings” has been the source of endless debate. Part of the difficulty is due to the unwillingness of some commentators to even consider the possibility that the book was written prior to A.D. 70. Some grant that the solution would be much simpler had John written the book earlier, but they do not consider an early date to be plausible. If an early date for the book is not ruled out automatically, it is possible to make much more sense out of this obscure text.
The “seven heads” of the beast are seven kings. If the beast is the Roman Empire, then it would seem clear that the seven kings are seven emperors of Rome. The difficulty arises when we attempt to figure out which seven emperors John has in mind. Part of the problem concerns the starting point. The Roman author Suetonius began his list of emperors with Julius Caesar. Tacitus, on the other hand, appears to have considered Augustus the first Roman emperor. If we begin with Julius and count consecutively, then the five kings who have fallen would be Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth king, the one who is, would then be Nero. This interpretation is quite possible, and it would place the date of the writing of Revelation sometime in the latter part of Nero’s reign (i.e., A.D. 64–68).
The difficulty with this interpretation arises when we attempt to identify the seventh and eighth king. The emperor who followed Nero was Galba, and he did reign a very little while (June 68 to January 69). But he was followed by Otho (January to April 69), and it is difficult to see how Otho could fit the description in 17:11 – “the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.” Wilson has suggested the possibility of beginning the count of emperors with Augustus. This would make the sixth king Galba, and the seventh would then be Otho. Unfortunately, the same problem arises in connection with the eighth king because it is very difficult to see how Vitellius (April to December 69) would fit the description of the eighth king.
Because of the difficulties involved with identifying the kings as emperors, some have suggested that the seven kings should be understood as seven kingdoms. The five that have fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylonia, Persia, and Greece. The one that is, the sixth kingdom, is Rome. Dispensationalists who take this approach tend to see the seventh kingdom as a revived Roman empire and see the eighth kingdom as the kingdom of the Antichrist. Non-dispensationalists take a different approach. Kistemaker, for example, says that the seventh kingdom is a “collective title for all antichristian governments between the fall of Rome and the final empire of antichrist.” The text of Revelation, however, appears to identify the beast itself, rather than one of its seven heads, as the Roman Empire. The heads, then, are more likely the emperors.
A final suggestion that must be considered understands the seven kings as seven emperors, but it omits the brief reigns of Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. Is there any justification for such a move? Suetonius includes all three in his Lives of the Caesars, but he does refer to these three as rebels. There is then some warrant for excluding these three from our reckoning. If we follow Tacitus and begin the count with Augustus, and if we exclude the three “rebel” emperors, the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The sixth king, the one who is, would be Vespasian (A.D. 69–79). The seventh king, the one who “has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while” would be Vespasian’s son Titus, who reigned briefly from A.D. 79–81.
As we have seen, the other attempts to understand the seven kings as seven emperors faced their biggest challenge in identifying the eighth king in a way that made sense. If Vespasian is identified as the sixth king, and Titus as the seventh, the eighth would be Domitian, who reigned from A.D. 81–96. Can the description of the eighth king in 17:11 be legitimately understood as a reference to Domitian? It is possible. Of the eighth king, John writes, “As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.” This is where the history of the Roman emperors is informative. When Vespasian was named the emperor in December 69, he was preoccupied in Egypt for approximately six months before he was able to come to Rome. During the first six months of his reign, his son Domitian ruled in his place, accepting the title of Caesar and all the authority of the throne.
Supposing John wrote during Vespasian’s reign in the summer of A.D. 70, just after Domitian’s temporary time on the throne ended and several months before the destruction of Jerusalem, then the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The one who is would be Vespasian. The other who has not yet come and must remain only a little while would be Titus. The eighth would be Domitian. Domitian, then, could be described as one who “was,” in the sense that he had already reigned as “Caesar” in his father’s stead for a short time. He could be described as one who “is not,” in the sense that he has now vacated the throne upon the arrival of his father Vespasian. He could be described as “an eighth,” in the sense that he will be the eighth emperor. He could be described as one who “belongs to the seven,” in the sense that he ruled in the place of the sixth emperor and is also the son of the same emperor. The strongest objection to this interpretation is that it requires excluding Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. But all of the suggested interpretations face difficulties. Of the possible interpretations, the two most plausible appear to be this one that sees Vespasian as the sixth king or the one that understands Nero to be the sixth king. In either case, the text points to an early date of composition before the destruction of Jerusalem.
Gadam
Like for Gene
Prove everything you say BY the Bible, verse after verse and that it makes sense with God’s plan for us.
Yes?
Prove everything you say BY the Bible, verse after verse and that it makes sense with God’s plan for us.
Hi Berean, nothing is hard and fast as these texts are ambiguous but we have to see the timeline and context of these writings. I have already quoted few verses in my post for your kind reference.
Adam…….The Seven heads on which Babylon sits are not the Seven “hills” of Rome, they are “mountains”, not the “hills” of Rome, but the Seven countenance’s or risings of the whole world, it means the whole world. , The Babylon system of rule is world ruling system of Government.
when John said “one “IS” he was not talking about a Babylonian type of world ruling system, but the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, and after that Comes the ‘SEVENTH’ AND THE THE EIGHT. Which last a short time , after the end of the thousand year rule of the kingdom of God on this earth. Those events John was talking about all take place at the end of Jesus and the Saint’s rule at the very end , when Satan is released from the bottomless pit. In fact the very reason Satan was bound for a thousand years and then released was for him to reestablish the Seventh Babylonian kingdom on this earth.
Adam you have to understand the timeline given in Rev 17, and how it ties into Dan 2, It is “impossible” to understand Revelations without that. That is why ” NO ONE “, HAS IT RIGHT YET, THAT I KNOW OF.
You “MUST” understand John was transported by the Spirt, unto the “DAY OF THE LORD” , or nothing they say will ever make sense to you, but once you understand that, everything will fit and Make sense to you.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
To all……..unless you understand that John was transported Im time to the the end of the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, in fact right a the end of it, when Satan will be released from the bottomless pit where he was cast at the beginning of the Thousand rule of Jesus and the Saint’s you can never understand Rev 17 nor Dan 2 either .
Where is your proof. None right?
Plus it is just cherry picking. A person could include China as the last empire or Australia in say 50 years. No serious student of the Bible just cherry picks and empire like that and forces it into the text. I mean you might as well be telling me that John saw the year 2100 and that was the sixth kingdom and he saw the next kingdom, the kingdom of Fiji. Your theory sounds almost as silly as that gene.
All the previous empires were based around the Great Sea. Now all of a sudden, that rule is suppose to break according to you. I don’t think so. The Bible is a book that predominately focussed around the Mediterranean. That is a fact. Your American centric view has placed too much importance on your own empire or country.
gadam, mountains are kingdoms and if you look at history, you see seven empires in succession and now no empire. The Beast is dead at the moment. What we have are basically kings or leaders of smaller states. But for how long?
Today, we have 2000 years of history to then place Revelations into. And I believe we have a match. When John gave the Revelation, five had fallen and one was. That is the biggest clue right there. All these other theories you talk about need to place Rome as the sixth as that was the one that was. If the theory doesn’t place Rome as the sixth, then it is a non-starter IMO.
gadam, mountains are kingdoms and if you look at history, you see seven empires in succession and now no empire. The Beast is dead at the moment. What we have are basically kings or leaders of smaller states. But for how long?
Hi Proclaimer,this is where I differ with most of the Christian interpretation on Revelation 17. I have already argued much on this chapter on another thread. Please note what the writer wanted us to infer on the symbols he saw in the vision. The mountains can mean many things as per the other texts in the Bible but we have to see what the writer wanted us to note.
The description of the woman and the beast upon which she sits in 17:7–14 is one of the most difficult passages in the book of Revelation. As John marvels at the vision, an angel says, “I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her” (v. 7). The angel tells John that the beast he saw “was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction” (v. 8a). The angel then says to John, “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction” (vv. 9–11).
If you read the above no where the writer meant the ‘mountain’ to mean Kingdoms or Empires. You may argue with me stating that a ‘King is Kingdom’ but that is not the context of the text of Revelation 17. This is what I was disputing with you earlier. I don’t want to argue further as you people are simply misquoting the texts. These texts never meant any distant future Kingdoms whether it is of Ottoman or of modern nations.
Adam…….The Seven heads on which Babylon sits are not the Seven “hills” of Rome, they are “mountains”, not the “hills” of Rome, but the Seven countenance’s or risings of the whole world, it means the whole world. , The Babylon system of rule is world ruling system of Government.
Hi brother Gene, please read my reply to Proclaimer above. The seven heads what John the writer meant was seven mountains and also they are seven kings as per Rev 17:
9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.
It may not be Rome as per your argument but most of the commentaries on the Revelation interpret the Woman of Revelation as the city of Rome of First Century CE.
Rev 17:
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.
There was no other city which was ruling over the kings of the earth at the time of John the writer of this book.
when John said “one “IS” he was not talking about a Babylonian type of world ruling system, but the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, and after that Comes the ‘SEVENTH’ AND THE THE EIGHT. Which last a short time , after the end of the thousand year rule of the kingdom of God on this earth. Those events John was talking about all take place at the end of Jesus and the Saint’s rule at the very end , when Satan is released from the bottomless pit. In fact the very reason Satan was bound for a thousand years and then released was for him to reestablish the Seventh Babylonian kingdom on this earth.
The above of yours is purely a strange interpretation of the text of Revelation as already been pointed out by Proclaimer.
Adam you have to understand the timeline given in Rev 17, and how it ties into Dan 2, It is “impossible” to understand Revelations without that. That is why ” NO ONE “, HAS IT RIGHT YET, THAT I KNOW OF.
You “MUST” understand John was transported by the Spirt, unto the “DAY OF THE LORD” , or nothing they say will ever make sense to you, but once you understand that, everything will fit and Make sense to you.
I don’t think Revelation 17 has anything connected with Daniel 2 as Daniel was talking about Four ancient Kingdoms which ruled the region of Judea.
Again your strange idea of John transported into secret timeline of Day of the Lord is another myth of yours.
Please read the Biblical texts in their original context you will understand the mind behind these writings.
I don’t think Revelation 17 has anything connected with Daniel 2 as Daniel was talking about Four ancient Kingdoms which ruled the region of Judea.
Yet you did say that Revelation ripped off Daniel. But if you think about it logically, both are talking about kingdoms. One is a subset of the other. Revelation is simply wider in scope.
If you read the above no where the writer meant the ‘mountain’ to mean Kingdoms or Empires. You may argue with me stating that a ‘King is Kingdom’ but that is not the context of the text of Revelation 17. This is what I was disputing with you earlier. I don’t want to argue further as you people are simply misquoting the texts. These texts never meant any distant future Kingdoms whether it is of Ottoman or of modern nations.
Mountains are used multiple times in scripture to mean kingdoms just like water means spirit or bread means teaching.
“I am against you, you destroying mountain…”
Ezekiel 35:2:
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it, and say to it, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you, land I will make you a desolation and a waste. I will lay your cities waste, and you shall become a desolation, and you shall know that I am the Lord.
Even in Daniel 2:35 we read about a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. Which has been interpreted to mean the Kingdom of God.
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
For further clarification, the Kingdom of Judah is often referred to as Mount Zion.
Now back to Revelation where it says:
“This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;”
There are also seven kings.
It is seems a stretch to think the mountains here are NOT kingdoms especially given that kings are mentioned in the next verse. Kings rule kingdoms right. Remember in Daniel how it is talking about the king and the kingdom? It’s no different. And by the way, it is all written in code anyway so the wicked will not understand. Only those who pursue the truth are worthy to receive the truth because seeking leads to finding. All others are happy to be ignorant or give up and write it off as a fable.
As for the woman. She is false religion. Dressed in purple and blasphemies portray her. She sits atop Rome yes, but also was present in all seven empires / mountains. God judged Babylon not because it was an empire, but for their worship of idols. For their false religion. Mystery Babylon therefore is simply the extension of this false religion that has permeated all empires going forward in that part of the world. The Trinity and other fables and legends made their way through a number of pantheons. Revelation points out Rome because that was the city of the day and that this city has seven mountains or hills. And it is interesting to note that Mecca also has that title. And yes, so does Jerusalem, but I guess they often fell for false gods too.
Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
THE FOUR KINGDOMS OF DANIEL
One of the most famous images in the Book of Daniel, and indeed in all of apocalyptic literature, is the statue that Nebuchadnezzar sees in his dream in Daniel chapter 2. This statue has a head of gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. The statue is destroyed when «a stone cut from a mountain» strikes the feet and brings down the statue. Daniel interprets the parts of the statue as a series of kingdoms. Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the might, and the glory. After him will come another kingdom inferior to his, then a third, which will rule over the whole earth. Then there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, which will crush and shatter all these. The iron is mixed with clay, symbolizing intermarriage, but the iron and clay will not hold together. Then finally, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. It will crush the previous kingdoms and will stand forever.
While the kingdoms are not named, the first four are patently to be identified with Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece, since these are the kingdoms that succeed each other throughout the book. Chapters 1–5 are set under Babylonian kings, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar. Chapter 6 is in the reign of the fictitious «Darius the Mede», but the last verse refers to the succeeding reign of Cyrus the Persian. Chapter 7 reverts to the reign of Belshazzar, and this is also the setting for chapter 8. Chapter 9 is in the reign of Darius the Mede. Chapter 10 is set under Cyrus of Persia, but the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that he is fighting the «prince» or patron angel of Persia, and that after him the «prince of Greece» will come. Chapter 11 begins with a prophecy that there will be three more kings of Persia, but then it continues with a detailed prophecy of the Hellenistic kingdoms, down to the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria, (175-164 BCE). No Median kingdom ever ruled over Judah. This is why we get the fictitious Darius the Mede in Daniel 6 and again in 11:1. Daniel was evidently drawing on an older schema that was not of Jewish origin.
In Daniel 2, the metals have declining value, a motif paralleled in Hesiod’s Works and Days. In his Works and Days Hesiod describes a sequence of five ages – golden, silver, bronze, a fourth that is not identified with a metal, and iron. The fourth age breaks the pattern of decline and is inserted to accommodate the heroes of Greek legend. Hesiod was evidently adapting a schema of four ages and metals that was already current by the eighth century BCE. The origin of the schema is unknown.
The origin of the four kingdom schema
This four-kingdom schema was not peculiar to the Book of Daniel. The same sequence, but with Assyria rather than Babylon as the first kingdom, is found in the Fourth Sibylline Oracle, a Jewish text, in Greek, that dates to the late first century CE in its present form, but the nucleus of the oracle is probably older. It is also attested in several Roman historians. A fragment of Aemilius Sura, who is otherwise unknown, is preserved by Velleius Paterculus, around the turn of the era:
The Assyrians were the first of all races to hold power, then the Medes, after them the Persians, and then the Macedonians. Then when the two kings, Philip and Antiochus, of Macedonian origin, had been completely conquered, soon after the overthrow of Carthage, the supreme command passed to the Roman people.
In the Jewish texts, the final kingdom is a kingdom of God; in the Roman texts, the final, presumably lasting kingdom, is Rome.
The idea that there was a sequence of world kingdoms, identified as Assyria, Media, and Persia, is as old as Herodotus. In the course of his inquiry as to how the Persians had become lords of Asia, the historian wrote:
«The Assyrians had held the empire of upper Asia for the space of 520 years, when the Medes set the example of revolt from their authority».
Later,
«the Medes were brought under the rule of the Persians» (Herodotus 1.95, 130).
In this he claimed to follow «Persian authorities», and in fact the inclusion of Media reflects a Persian point of view. This sequence is also found in Ktesias, who had been court physician to Artaxerxes II. The sequence Assyria-Media is also found in the Book of Tobit. The suspicion arises that this view of history reflected Persian propaganda, which sought to portray Persia as the heir to the great kingdoms of the ancient Near East. Caution is in order here. The sequence of world empires is not attested in Achaemenid inscriptions and we have no direct evidence that it was part of Persian propaganda.
In an influential essay published in 1940, Joseph Swain argued that the extension of the schema to include Greece must have developed in the context of anti-Hellenistic resistance. Aemilius Sura, quoted above, considered the Second Punic War (218-201 BCE) as the time of the overthrow of Carthage, so Swain reasoned that he must have writ- ten before the Third Punic War (149-146 CE). Because he considered Philip, who died in 179 BCE, to mark the end of Macedonia, he must have written before the third Macedonian war (171-168). If this is correct, then the four kingdom schema was known before the book of Daniel was written. Swain supposed that the sequence of world kingdoms including Media became known in Rome in the context of anti-Seleucid propaganda, around the time of the Battle of Magnesia, in 190 BCE, when Rome defeated Antiochus III (the Great). In any case, it seems likely that the sequence of four kingdoms, including Media, was current before the rise of Rome. Another early witness is found in the Fourth Sibylline Oracle. The Sibyl divides history into ten generations and four kingdoms. The Assyrians are said to rule for six generations, the Medes for two, the Persians for one, and the Macedonians in the tenth. A long oracle against Rome follows, out of numerical sequence, bringing the review of history down to the late first century CE. It seems clear, however, that the original oracle either ended with the tenth generation or with a predicted kingdom of God that was to follow it. It was presumably written before the rise of Rome.
In both Jewish and Roman expressions of the four-kingdom schema, the climactic, final, kingdom is not the fourth but the fifth – the kingdom of God in Daniel, Rome in Aemilius Sura. It could easily function subversively, to predict the demise of the fourth kingdom. This is certainly the case in Daniel, more obviously in Daniel 7 than in Daniel 2. The Roman texts, in contrast, are triumphalist, from a Roman perspective. Swain supposed that the sequence had been developed for the purpose of anti-Seleucid propaganda. This is admittedly speculative, but at least it seems clear that it functions as anti-Seleucid propaganda in Daniel 7.
An intriguing parallel to Daniel is found in the Persian Bahman Yasht, or Zand-i Vohuman Yasn. This text survives in Pahlavi, from the ninth century CE. Zands were midrashic elaborations of lost texts from the Avesta, part translation and part commentary. The Avesta is thought to derive from Zoroaster, whose date is controversial but was surely earlier than the Achaemenid period. It was not collected, how- ever, until the Sassanian period (221-642 CE). So while it is clear that the Bahman Yasht is based on old traditions, it is relatively late in its present form….(taken from the book “Four Kingdoms and a Fifth”)
Adam……Your problem is your listing to people who are not guided by the true Spirit of God and you are going after them and attributing them as your experts, as you are doing with the Jews. You are not letting the Spirit of truth guide your thinking, or you would absolutely know , John was indeed transported in time to the “day’ of the Lord. Right before the time of the return of ALMIGHTY GOD , HIMSELF to this earth.
Rev 1: 10…….Here it shows that, John was transported in time by the Spirit to the day of the LORD .
Unless you understand that, you will never make any sense of Rev 17, it is absolutely crucial to understand that first and see how everything fit into that timeline. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Now back to Revelation where it says:
“This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;”
There are also seven kings.
It is seems a stretch to think the mountains here are NOT kingdoms especially given that kings are mentioned in the next verse. Kings rule kingdoms right. Remember in Daniel how it is talking about the king and the kingdom? It’s no different. And by the way, it is all written in code anyway so the wicked will not understand. Only those who pursue the truth are worthy to receive the truth because seeking leads to finding. All others are happy to be ignorant or give up and write it off as a fable.
Hi Proclaimer, you are quoting wrong translation of Rev 17:9-10; please read correct translation
9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while.
Sorry I can’t go further with you as you are repeatedly misquoting the texts from Revelation 17 by ignoring what the writer wanted us to infer with his own interpretation. Rest is speculation by interpreting the First Century texts to our timeline as the writer was worried for the urgency of the incidents within the timeline of his own audience, the seven Churches of Asia.
Rev 1: 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.
9 I, John, your brother who share with you in Jesus the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Rev 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”
7 “See, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.
20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
So look at at the urgency and shortness of time for these events to take place. I don’t think this writer wanted his audience to wait for 2000 or 3000 years. The rest is mere speculation of Christianity which I am not going to buy.
Unless you understand that, you will never make any sense of Rev 17, it is absolutely crucial to understand that first and see how everything fit into that timeline. IMO
Sorry brother I don’t want any of your secret understanding. I request you to impress others on your strange interpretations on these ancient texts.
Adam, So where is the “soon coming” at? Does two thousand years after that was written , mean “soon” coming to you ? Not to me, but if you were transported to that time period it would be accurate to say “soon coming” That only proves what I am telling you is right.
Again I repeat what I have been telling you and everyone else, there is no way you can understand Rev 17, without understanding John was transported in time to the day or time of the coming of God almighty to this earth. At the very end of the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s. Then comes the Seventh and the Eight and the return of God Almighty back to this earth.
Peace and love to yo and yours……….gene
The seven Kings of Revelation 17
Here is another Christian interpretation of Revelation 17;
The Seven Kings represented by the heads in Rev 17:9-10 are:
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
Vespasian
Titus
According to the article “List of Roman Emperors” on britannica.com, Titus ruled for only a couple of years—a short time in comparison to the other emperors identified above.It seems the writer of Revelation interpreted the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 as the Scarlet Beast on which the Woman was sitting. This is the reason why the three emperors Galba, Otho, and Vitellius each ruled for a few months between Nero and Vespasian, there is good reasons not to include them in the count: they were the three horns that were removed in Daniel 7:8 (Galba was murdered, Ottho committed suicide, Vitellius was murdered). Thus, the reason Revelation presents 7 horns instead of 10 horns is that Revelation expects the reader to understand that Daniel 7:8 has already been taken into account: the beast with seven heads in Revelation 17 is the fourth beast with seven horns in Daniel 7, after its three horns were removed (that fourth beast is the Roman empire as per this writer). Another reason why Revelation presents the beast with only seven horns is to emphasize divine providence (seven is a symbolic and key number throughout the book of revelation).
The Scarlet Beast
Its Identity – having identified the seven emperors whom the seven heads represent, it is important to note that Revelation 17 adds one more king. This eighth king is represented by the scarlet beast itself, so he corresponds to Daniel’s little horn (Revelation 7:8).8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
The reason this scarlet beast had been, was not, and would soon arise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction is that it is a reference to the legend of Nero Redivivus. This implies that Revelation was written at a time when Nero was already dead and was expected to resurrect (an implication that is consistent with the view that Revelation implies it was written during the reign of Vespasian).
Thus, the eighth king in Revelation 17 (the little horn and eleventh king in Daniel 7) is a resurrected Nero as per this writer. This, however, does not mean that Revelation teaches that Nero would resurrect to rule again. Instead, it means that, according to Revelation, a ruler like Nero would arise in the future.
Like the heads of the beast, which represent mountains and kings, the scarlet beast itself represents the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and eighth king in Revelation 17.
The Time Lapse:
It is important to realize that this does not mean that the eighth king was Domitian, as preterists propose (there was hardly a persecution under Domitian). Daniel’s little horn did not grow together with the first ten horns, but sometime after them. Likewise, this eighth king is not a head together with the other seven kings, but in itself a beast (the little horn in Daniel 7 and the beast from the sea in Revelation 13). By separating the little horn from the ten horns, and by identifying the eighth king as the beast, not a head, both prophecies hint that there will be an indefinite period of time between the seven Roman emperors and the “resurrected” Nero. This matter, however, can only be settled by comparing these prophecies with the rest of the Scriptures.The Ten Kings
Revelation 17:12-13 also speaks of ten kings represented by the ten horns on the scarlet beast. Like the scarlet beast, these ten horns will also rule in the future, and they will follow (be led by) the scarlet beast (the “resurrected” Nero).It is important to understand that these ten horns in Revelation 17 do not correspond to the ten horns in Daniel 7. These ten kings are found nowhere in Daniel 7, instead they are an additional detail about Daniel’s little horn that was not previously known to Daniel. Moreover, these ten kings are not necessarily a future Roman empire—personally, I think that is unlikely.
The Judgement
Ii is unlikely that the ten future kings are a future Roman empire simply because, according to Revelation 17, these ten kings and the beast (the “resurrected” Nero) will hate the city of Rome (in other words, the Roman empire), turn against it and burn it down (Revelation 17:16). Note that this burning of the city of Rome is another reference point back to Nero, who also burnt Rome down (although, in a much smaller scale).Why do these ten kings and the beast hate the city of Rome? Revelation 17:17 tells us this is something God has put in their hearts. In the book of Revelation, the future burning of the city of Rome is God’s judgment on the Roman empire—for us, living some 2,000 years later after the prophecy was given, it is a prophecy (a type or foreshadow) of what will transpire in the future. Is it so ?
Please note the above is purely another Christian interpretation.
Hi Proclaimer
So, you could not answer my question, but I am patient because it is really a serious matter …. I am putting back my last post. (Copy and paste)
Have a good day
👇
If you are ok with that
the FOURTH beast (Daniel 7) = IRON LEGS and IRON FEET + CLAY (Dan. 2)
Do you agree that the previous 3 beasts of Daniel 7 correspond to the metals of Dan 2 (brass, silver, gold)
GOLD. /LION
SILVER / BEAR
BRASS / LEOPARDGod bless
Christian Speculations on the Book of Daniel
The Puritans who migrated from England to North America brought with them a strong interest in the fulfillment of prophecy. This interest was focused on Revelation rather than Daniel. Daniel did, however, play an important role in the Millerite movement in the mid nineteenth century. William Miller (1782- 1849) calculated the end of the world on the basis of Dan 8,14 (two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings). Making the usual equation of one day and a thousand years, and starting from the return of Era in 458 BCE, Miller arrived at 1843 as the date of the end. When 1843 came and went, some Millerites fixed a new date, October 22, 1844. When that day also passed, one Millerite recalled, «we wept and wept until day dawned». The Millerite movement can be seen as the end of one trajectory in the interpretation of Daniel, but there have been ongoing attempts to calculate the end of the world on the basis of Daniel.
The most recent was that of Harold Camping, a Californian evangelist in 2011. Camping was exceptional in the history of apocalyptic prophecy insofar as he eventually admitted that he was wrong. The Millerite movement gave rise to the Seventh Day Adventist church and also to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Another 19th century development, Dispensationalism, has continued to figure prominently in American life. The Dispensationalist movement was based on the teachings of the Irish-born John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) founder of the Plymouth Brethern. Darby placed the fulfillment of prophecy either in the pre-Christian past or in the eschatological future and avoided attempts to match prophecy with events in European or American history. Some of his followers, however, developed graphic overviews of history, usually based on the statue of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2 or the four beasts from the sea in Daniel 7. A particularly famous example is the chart created by Clarence Larkin (1850-1924), a former draftsman who had become a Dispensationalist preacher, in his book Dispensational Truth, originally published in 1918.
Since the rise of historical criticism of the Bible, the great debates about universal history, the identification of the Antichrist, and millennial expectation are no longer taken seriously by scholars, although they live on in some Evangelical Christian circles. Some scholars have lamented the decline in the importance of the book for the culture at large, but the loss is really a gain. The prophecies of Daniel can no longer serve as Christological proofs or as guides to the structure of universal history. Attempts to calculate the end on the basis of numbers in Daniel have always been problematic. The theological name-calling of the medieval and Reformation periods, especially with regard to the Antichrist, is no longer regarded as edifying. Viewed in its historical and literary context, Daniel is more akin to poetry than to historiography or futurology. While it is an important witness to the history of the Maccabean period, its witness is couched in the language of myth, richly informed by the mythological traditions of the ancient Near East. That language has often been misunderstood by literalist interpreters, but it has nonetheless enriched the religious imagination of the western world…..(taken from the article by John J. Collins, “Four Kingdoms and a Fifth”)
Proclaimer……Who is the one who was put in the bottomless pit? Is it Satan, the devil.
Rev 17:7…..”and the angel said unto me, wherefore did you marvel, I will tell you the mystery of the women, (Babylon the Great), and the “beast” the carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns”.
Verse 8…… “the beast that you saw was, and is not (at the time of this prophesy taking place) and shall asend out of the bottomless pit. and go into Perdition”
Now Proclaimer, this shows it was SATAN .
I see. But your reasoning is faulty. Not all that comes out of the pit is Satan himself. It is the bode of the dead. I quote this from Wikipedia, but don’t have the time to check this out.
Jesus sent the Gadarene swine into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1) will rise out of the abyss (Revelation 11:7). The locusts—human-animal hybrids—ascend out of the abyss to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Revelation 9:1-11). Paul uses the term in Romans 10:7 when quoting Psalm 71:20, referring to the abode of the dead.
In Psalm 42:7, “deep calls to deep” (referring to the waters), or in Latin abyssus abyssum invocat, developing the theme of the longing of the soul for God.
In Revelation 9:11, Abaddon is called “the angel of the abyss”.
Hi To all
Daily Devotional
AN AMAZING FACT: Compulsive hoarding is a condition where a person habitually gathers or buys growing piles of useless possessions, and then seems powerless to discard anything. This expanding collection of junk can lead to unbearable living conditions that cause significant clutter and impairment to mobility within their home. Of course, this pathological collecting is a strain on relationships, but it can also interfere with basic living activities such as cooking, cleaning, showering, or sleeping.
For example, an eccentric loner in Britain hoarded so much junk and trash he had to burrow through it to get around his home. Then in January 2009 he evidently got lost in the maze of tunnels and died of thirst. This 74-year-old human mole, Gordon Stewart, had filled the rooms of his house clear up to the ceiling with years’ worth of old newspapers, garbage, and clutter, making it impossible to walk around.Neighbors said Mr. Stewart’s home had been accumulating rubbish for at least 10 years. Heaps of plastic bags could clearly be seen piled up against his front window, while broken furniture, computer parts, and even an old TV spilled over onto his front lawn. A car dating back to the 1950s stood in the garage, untouched for years as garbage accumulated around it.
Neighbors in Broughton, England, called authorities after failing to see him leave his house for several days. When police arrived, the stench from the garbage was so foul they brought in a police scuba diving team with breathing apparatus to search the dwelling. They crawled around through mountains of junk and garbage, searching the elaborate network of tunnels until they located Stewart’s body. The compulsive hoarder is believed to have become disorientated inside the walls of rotting trash and unable to find a way out until he collapsed from dehydration.
The Bible says there is “ … A time to keep, and a time to throw away” (Ecclesiastes 3:6). We might roll our eyes at people who struggle with hoarding, but there is probably a touch of greed in everyone’s heart. If insecurity drives us to find peace in collecting the things of this world, let us do a deep work of removing the clutter of such thinking and rest in Jesus.
KEY BIBLE TEXTS
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36
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