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I do not believe either Egypt or Assyria ever controlled Judea which first fell to Babylon
They enslaved the Jews. Israel was not in the days of Egypt. As for Assyria, I don’t know much about that empire, but a quick google led me to these two Wikipedia pages.
- Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem
- Assyria – this page has a map of their territory
A quote from the latter page:
Beginning with the campaigns of Adad-nirari II from 911 BC, it again became a great power over the next three centuries, overthrowing the Twenty-fifth dynasty of Egypt and conquering Egypt, Babylonia, Elam, Urartu/Armenia, Media, Persia, Mannea, Gutium, Phoenicia/Canaan, Aramea (Syria), Arabia, Israel, Judah, Edom, Moab, Samarra, Cilicia, Cyprus, Chaldea, Nabatea, Commagene, Dilmun, the Hurrians, Sutu and Neo-Hittites, driving the Ethiopians and Nubians from Egypt, defeating the Cimmerians and Scythians and exacting tribute from Phrygia, Magan and Punt among others.
And from the Babylon page we see the fall of the Assyrian Empire and the rise of Babylon
Under Nabopolassar, a hitherto unknown Chaldean chieftain, Babylon eventually threw off Assyrian rule, and in an alliance with Cyaxares, king of the Medes and Persians together with the Scythians and Cimmerians, the Assyrian Empire was finally destroyed between 612 BC and 605 BC. Babylon thus became the capital of the Neo-Babylonian (sometimes and possibly erroneously called Chaldean) Empire.
With the recovery of Babylonian independence, a new era of architectural activity ensued, and his son Nebuchadnezzar II (604–561 BC) made Babylon into one of the wonders of the ancient world.
Wakeup, we are talking about the Beast, not the money lenders etc.
BTW, this is the post I asked of you a while back, a list of points that sum up your eschatology. So now I have it in an easy to understand format.
Any chance of posting that in the topic where we were going to discuss what your view was. I cannot remember where that topic is now or even if there was a dedicated topic.
yes wakeup ,in time Jesus will separate the good from the bad , then we will know ,but for now we have to see and understand the truth IN SCRIPTURES FOR OUR SELF, SO THAT WE CAN CHOSE TO SERVE THE TRUE GOD AND NOT SATAN AND HIS ORGANIZATION
@t8,
Assyria conquered the 1o tribes and took a number of Judea’s cities but when they came again Jerusalem they were defeated by God. God sent a plague among the soldiers. Judea though paid tribute to Assyria to remain independent.
There are two different periods of Egyptian History involved and it is a long history that only is considered to end with Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt. They were subject to other Empires at times. On is when the children of Israel were aliens and a later one when Assyria and Egypt clashed and Egypt became a captive Empire though still self ruled under Assyria. I believe you are stretching to include the children of Israel captivity in Egypt as fitting the needed the criteria.
Egypt never controlled Babylon or its environments. The Hittite Empire may be a better candidate as they did control Babylon for a time.
I believe you are stretching to include the children of Israel captivity in Egypt as fitting the needed the criteria.
Your missing the point. The Beast by its nature seems to enslave God’s chosen and is ready to devour when given the chance. When God’s chosen possessed the land he gave them, they were consequently conquered or ruled over by the Beast which often meant persecution even death. The Egyptian empire predates that possibility of course, nevertheless, they were enslaved by them and God sent Moses to deliver them from Pharaoh.
Not stretching anything here. Just discussing and summing up what we read in scripture regarding Israel and the Beast.
We are told that a dragon appeared in Heaven and tried to devour a child born of a woman:
Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child
A dragon is also mentioned as giving his power to the Beast:
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”
We are then told who the dragon is:
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Simply observations Kerwin. It is called studying scripture. Connecting dots is not always a stretching exercise. Should we give up studying? Far from it.
You are free to deny everything I say as that is your prerogative, however, it would be good to have more members here who are able to discuss things in a reasonable manner rather than just deny everything in knee jerk fashion that was not thought of by them or that is not part of their adopted set of pet doctrines. There are some members here who are open to discussing a number of possibilities, but would like to see more members like them for sure.
Quality discussion is what we are trying to foster here. Anyone can deny everything that others say. That is easy.
T8,
Many waged wars against each and every empire named, even successful wars.
Daniel 7:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
In this one the heads are four empires that were the successors of Alexander’s empire. Those Empires were concurrent Empires. In this case each each head symbolizes an empire. Going by that precedent the beast from the sea is also seven concurrent empires.
The dragon also has seven heads, if it is Satan, then the heads do not represent empires.
That seven heads and ten horns are held in common between the dragon, the beast from the sea, and the Scarlett colored beast the whore of Babylon sits on. That does not sound likely to be circumstances.
So what? It is not a necessity. All I have said is that the Beast is an enemy of Israel, the Jews, and the Christians too. The nature of the Beast is to enslave God’s people, they don’t always succeed. And the Beast predates Christians as well as Israel so there are no rules that apply concerning invasion. Just pointing out the nature of the Beast Kerwin, then comparing that nature with say the British or American empires who in many respects have an opposite view toward Israel and Christians.
According to this Wikipedia page Assyria waged successful campaigns against the following:
Beginning with the campaigns of Adad-nirari II from 911 BC, it again became a great power over the next three centuries, overthrowing the Twenty-fifth dynasty of Egypt and conquering Egypt, Babylonia, Elam, Urartu/Armenia, Media, Persia, Mannea, Gutium, Phoenicia/Canaan, Aramea (Syria), Arabia, Israel, Judah, Edom, Moab, Samarra, Cilicia, Cyprus, Chaldea, Nabatea, Commagene, Dilmun, the Hurrians, Sutu and Neo-Hittites, driving the Ethiopians and Nubians from Egypt, defeating the Cimmerians and Scythians and exacting tribute from Phrygia, Magan and Punt among others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AssyriaSo what if Jerusalem was included or not. You’re trying too hard and appear to be drawing at straws.
The dragon also has seven heads, if it is Satan, then the heads do not represent empires.
The four kingdoms of both Daniel 2’s statue and Daniel 7’s beasts are Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. We find other references which connect the Heads to kingdoms too. For example, in Revelation 17:9-10 it says specifically that the seven heads of the Beast are seven mountains and seven kings:
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.…
But let’s also allow scripture to interpret scripture elsewhere by going to Jeremiah 51:25 where we find that the “mountain” described in that passage is actually a kingdom, and in this case it is Babylon.
Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys the whole earth,” declares the LORD, “And I will stretch out My hand against you, And roll you down from the crags And I will make you a burnt out mountain.
The same result is found when checking out the symbol of the “great mountain” that struck the statue of Daniel 2 and destroyed it. The official interpretation that is given shows it to be the kingdom of God.
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
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And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
So the heads are mountains which are kingdoms. Five had fallen, one was, and another to come. But that was 2000 years ago.
Now six have definitely fallen. And when we consider who conquered the Roman Empire, we see that it was the Ottoman Empire which is a definite candidate for the seventh. Further, we know that has already fallen and so that would mean we are in the period when one of the heads received a deadly wound. Thus we are actually awaiting the rising of the eighth which is of the seventh.
Started watching this video and it looks interesting. But it is long, so I’m posting it here in order to not forget to watch the rest of it.
Disclaimer for kerwin:
I am not saying I agree with everything in it at this stage. Please do not pose questions as if I wholeheartedly agree with everything in the video. I may not.It’s a pity these guys teach the Trinity.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When you teach the Trinity, you alienate both Jew and Muslim from accepting the son of God.
Both could accept Jesus is the son of God, but forcing the Trinity on them is unreasonable, unscriptural, and unnecessary.
What is the point in blocking the way to the son of God?
Walid Shoebat does this too unfortunately.
According to commentary, the Great Sea is the Mediterranean.
If this is true, then we can clearly see that the Beast rises up in that area of the world. No point in saying the British or American empires are part of the Beast because they are not from that area.
@t8,
Google a search engine so it just tells you what someone else says. In this case it is quoting from biblehub’s site and the title is Topical Bible.
I am to uninspired beyond that to look for the source though I doubt the claim is true since Babylon and Persia are not Mediterranean powers.
I do not see where Babylon the city can be said to literally come out of any sea. The Empire as it grew would border the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf but that sound like it came out of any of them.
The Great Sea could be anything including a metaphysical construct of that time.
Are they saying “come up” means your lands extent east of the Great Sea because that is what it sounds like. I think I can prove that false by the Roman Empire but I have not tested it.
@t8,
The war at this time is between Secularist and Islamists and the Secularists are winning. The Secularists are actually a better candidate as unlike Islamist they support sexual immorality and show contempt for the God’s of their fathers. The Secularists are also more of a world power. ISIS is Islamists and those facing them are Secularists, whether they call themselves Christians, Muslims, or something else. There are many battles between these two factions.
The Secularists are against any sincere religion but they have already defeated most of them. The Islamists are one of the last if not the last to stand against them.
You could be right Kerwin, the Great Sea may not be referring to the Mediterranean Sea in that scripture. However, if I was going to hedge my bet on who was right, you or Bible Hub, I would put my money on Bible Hub simply because they have probably researched it or got that info from someone else who researched it and you clearly have not. But you are free to prove to me that the Mediterranean Sea was NOT called the Great Sea in scripture. How about you do that? You doubted it so prove to me and yourself that your doubt is true.
The evidence is however compelling. The Mediterranean Sea is known as the Great Sea in scripture and the fact that John was on the Isle of Patmos in the Aegean which is an embayment of the Mediterranean Sea does lend itself to being that sea.
The Wikipedia page on the Mediterranean Sea says the following.
In the Bible, it was primarily known as the “Great Sea” (הַיָּם הַגָּדוֹל, HaYam HaGadol, Num. 34:6,7; Josh. 1:4, 9:1, 15:47; Ezek. 47:10,15,20), or simply “The Sea” (1 Kings 5:9; comp. 1 Macc. 14:34, 15:11); however, it has also been called the “Hinder Sea” (הַיָּם הָאַחֲרוֹן), due to its location on the west coast of the Holy Land, and therefore behind a person facing the east, sometimes translated as “Western Sea”, (Deut. 11:24; Joel 2:20). Another name was the “Sea of the Philistines” (יָם פְּלִשְׁתִּים, Exod. 23:31), from the people occupying a large portion of its shores near the Israelites. The sea is also called the “Great Sea” (Middle English: Grete See) in the General Prologue by Geoffrey Chaucer.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_SeaIf you look at maps of the last four beasts mentioned in Daniel as well as the Ottoman Empire, they all had substantial coastline in the Mediterranean. Other empires such as the British and American do not border the Great Sea of scripture.
If I asked you to tell me what comes out of the Mediterranean Sea the answer would be land. So if the empire is built on the land around that sea, then you have an apt description for the location of the Beast from John’s perspective. And the sea that he would have known the most would have been the Mediterranean. It is also the biggest sea in that region, so it is not a great stretch to think that people referred to the Mediterranean as the Great sea.
The war at this time is between Secularist and Islamists and the Secularists are winning. The Secularists are actually a better candidate as unlike Islamist they support sexual immorality and show contempt for the God’s of their fathers. The Secularists are also more of a world power. ISIS is Islamists and those facing them are Secularists, whether they call themselves Christians, Muslims, or something else. There are many battles between these two factions.
Mystery Babylon is the mother of all harlots. Harlotry in scripture that is not literal often refers to people who worship false gods. Mystery Babylon rides the back of the whole Beast and all these empires had their own branded religions. Yet you make the argument that those with no religion will be the next head of the Beast. That doesn’t add up to me and not only breaks the pattern for no good reason that I can see, it also goes against the nature of the Beast.
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