Is God REALLY from eternity?

[terraricca]

All

let see what scriptures teach us about our God

anyone …..

Pierre

[terraricca]

all

so we all agree God as no beginning he always was and will be

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

I know that many English translations have verses saying Jehovah is from everlasting, or from eternity, or has no beginning.

I've noticed that these translators have rendered the words “owlam” and “aion” as “eternity”, which doesn't really seem to be their correct meaning.

Does anyone know of a scripture that CLEARLY says our God is from everlasting, or that He has no beginning?

mike

[Rena]

All,

My mother used to explain God as being like a circle.  A circle goes on and on round and round and you don't know where the begining is or end because there isn't one.

Isaiah 57:15

“For thus said the high and exalted One, Inhabiting eternity, and holy is His name“

Deut 33:27

“A habitation is the eternal God, And beneath are arms age-during“.

Though God created time, he does not live in time as we do. God is before time.

Our brains cannot possibly concieve of eternity.  Just as a child cannot concieve of things that they don't know.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Karena Marie,  

Isaiah 57:15 NWT 
For this is what the High and Lofty One, who is residing forever and whose name is holy, has said………
This verse teaches that God WILL BE forever, not that He HAS BEEN FROM forever.

Deut 33:27 NWT 
A hiding place is the God of ancient time, And underneath are the indefinitely lasting arms. And he will drive away from before you the enemy, And he will say, ‘Annihilate [them]!’
And this is the accurate translation of the Hebrew words for you other verse.

Don't get me wrong, I've always believed that God was FROM eternity as well as being TO eternity.  I just don't know of a scripture that actually says this.

I'm hoping someone else will know of one.  Thanks for your attempt.  

peace and love,
mike

[Wispring]

The Deut 33:27 if fairly descriptive of God existing in and from eternity.

Quote

Deuteronomy 33:27 King James Version (KJV) 27The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

  The Hebrew word translated eternal here is qedem which my ISA program has directly translated to mean aforetime. Derived from the word qadam which means precede.
  I personally think that before time is a misuse of logic. Outside of time is easier to visualize and semantically more accurate. Simply because the words before, during, after are words we use to reference any given event that occurs in time. Therefore something can't occur before the concept that is used to define before.

                                                   With Love and more love,
                                                             Wispring

[mikeboll64]

Hi Wispring,

You haven't said anything that Rena hasn't already said.  Can you show me that “qedem” means “ETERNAL”? “Aforetime” and “precede” don't necessarily refer to “from eternity”, right?

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
Perhaps in your mind they don't. To my mind aforetime or beforetime means from place either where time has no meaning or time has no presence. This qualifies as eternity to my mind. You, of course, can think it about what ever way your freewill leads you.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[mikeboll64]

Hi Wispring,

From dictionary.com:
a·fore·time   /əˈfɔrˌtaɪm, əˈfoʊr-/ Show Spelled
[uh-fawr-tahym, uh-fohr-]

–adverb
1. in time past; in a former time; previously.

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
Your right. I misunderstood what aforetime meant. I did some further research on the word “oulm” which is translated to english to mean “indefinately lasting” in the NWT. The Strongs has that the word means properly concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind(future or past) that is derived from a primitive root word “alam” that means to to veil from sight or conceal(literaly or figuratively). Perhaps, because the Hebrew culture at this time did not have a word symbol for the concept of eternity/infinity which we have now with that side-ways figure 8 that means infinity mathematically this was the closest they could come with the language tools they had to communicate with? I have done a little research on this and it seems to be the case. Try googling “Did the ancient Hebrews have a word for eternity” and you will see what I am talking about here. So I would say that we would be hard-pressed to find scriptural proof from the Hebrew language for our modern understanding of eternal because at that time beyond the horizon of time or to the vanishing point of time they could conceptualize was there understanding of eternity and “oulm” was the best word they had to talk about it.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[mikeboll64]

That sounds reasonable to me, Wispring.  But now that brings us to another problem (one of a few):  If the Hebrews didn't even have a real concept of eternity, then how can the Hebrew scriptures teach that God is “from eternity”?

Here is another problem:
From NETNotes:
Mic 5:25tn Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4. In Neh 12:46 and Amos 9:11 the Davidic era is in view.

I have my doubts that a word which is often used to refer to known times in the past could also mean “from eternity” in certain scriptures.  We can't just wish things into scripture, can we?

This is similar with the Greek word “aion”.  Many translators want it to mean “eternity” as proof that Jesus had no beginning, but Matthew 28:20 shows this cannot be the case, because there is no “END” to eternity.

Thanks for your continuing input, Wispring.  I really thought that many others would want to take part in a discussion about such a monumental misunderstanding concerning our Creator, if that's what it really is.

peace,
mike

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  I believe the Hebrews did have a real concept of eternity. Thier definition of eternal doesn't precisely conform to our modern definition of eternity is what I think is what's going on. To them it is of a time that is at and beyond the vanishing point of the cognitave awareness of events that occur within time that they are aware of using “the vanishing point”  from Strong's for example. Using the proper definition “concealed” one can think of concealed time as being being a form of eternity simply because it is not revealed and known of or about. Using “time out of mind” one can think of this as time that one's mind can't wrap ones mind around, therefore, a concept of time that is in form and by extension eternal. “Always was, Always is, Always will” be is the best phrase I can think of currently that embodies and defines eternal using the english language. I can't find this phrase verbatim used in reference to God in scriptures to define his longevity. Therefore, I can see how tranlators could translate this word to mean really, really old and also to mean eternity by our modern definition of eternity. They do this by presuming that God is, indeed, eternal and then translate in context that God and his word are eternal is probably the reasoning behind thier translations. I have read in non-biblical text that God is the eternal supreme consciousness. So at least to other people and other cultures God is eternal and is expressed with words that match our modern definition. I personally think God is eternal and won't lose much sleep over the fact that the the ancient Hebrews and Greeks didn't have a word to use for the word eternal that precisely fits our modern definition of eternal and does not fit our modern definition of eternal like a hand-stitched glove.

                                                    With Love and more love,
                                                            Wispring

[terraricca]

Mike

when God says his name is “I AM WHO I AM”  is this not imply I AM always I AM  ,yesterday ,tomorrow …………………
Is there any one else who can say this ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Wispring,

So it doesn't bother you in the least that the Hebrew and Greek words WE use to teach God is from eternity are words that are used to refer to KNOWN past times, as in the early days of the nation of Israel?

How exactly did WE come by our belief that God is from eternity if there is no scripture saying so?

(Btw, OUR word “eternal” doesn't necessarily mean “Always WAS”.  Sometimes it only means “IS NOW AND ALWAYS WILL BE”, as in the case of Jesus' immortality.    )

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2011,16:14)

Mike when God says his name is “I AM WHO I AM”  is this not imply I AM always I AM  ,yesterday ,tomorrow ………………… Is there any one else who can say this ? Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I believe the most accurate translation is “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be”, like the NWT renders it.

I don't see how God's Name bears any evidence one way or the other about Him being from eternity.

Pierre, I still believe that God had no beginning – I'm just anxious to find scriptural proof of this belief.

Thanks for your help,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2011,21:27)

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2011,16:14) Mike when God says his name is “I AM WHO I AM”  is this not imply I AM always I AM  ,yesterday ,tomorrow ………………… Is there any one else who can say this ? Pierre Hi Pierre, I believe the most accurate translation is “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be”, like the NWT renders it. I don't see how God's Name bears any evidence one way or the other about Him being from eternity. Pierre, I still believe that God had no beginning – I'm just anxious to find scriptural proof of this belief.   Thanks for your help, mike

Mike

in scriptures when it says IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED CHRIST (THE WORD)

WHO WAS EXISTING THEN JUST BEFORE THAT BEGUINNING?

this is my understanding of God being always there and ad no beginning.

Pierre

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  I can easily understand how a culture from 5000 years or do so ago would have a different word picture that expresses eternal in a way fairly alien and not in perfect conformance to a modern understanding of eternal. I can easily understand ages of ages to be referring to eternal. By the way a valid modern definition of forever is also always and at all times so rest easy.

Quote

for·ever (fôr ev′ər, fər-) adverb 1.for eternity; for always; endlessly 2.at all times; always noun Informal a period of time that seems to have no end Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio. Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc. for·ev·er (fôr-ĕvˈər, fər-) adverb 1.For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever. 2.At all times; incessantly: was forever complaining about the job. noun A seemingly very long time: It has taken forever to resolve these problems. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

  So, therefore, you can use the NWT Isaiah 57:15 and be safely within the definition of forever and mean also from forever.
  Then there is this from the Gospel of Thomas

Quote

18)  The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us how our end will be.”     Jesus said, “Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death.”

  Which fits in quite nicely with what Rena's mom said.

Quote

My mother used to explain God as being like a circle.  A circle goes on and on round and round and you don't know where the begining is or end because there isn't one.

  I think God whispered an eternal truth in her ear. May God's light eternally guide us all in our search for truth which has no lie within it.

                                           With Love and more love,
                                                    Wispring

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wispring @ June 15 2011,00:15)

By the way a valid modern definition of forever is also always and at all times so rest easy.  So, therefore, you can use the NWT Isaiah 57:15 and be safely within the definition of forever and mean also from forever.

May God bless you for trying, guys!  Wispring, I thought of that one last night and looked into it. I was hoping to find a scripture where that word was used to say God was FROM “forever”. It backfired on me, as it turned out that the Hebrew word 'ad, which is often translated as “forever”, is also used to represent KNOWN times in the past.  In fact NETNotes says it means “ancient” when referring to past time, and “forever” when referring to future time.

I was bummed out.

Thanks for your help with this guys.  If you come across anything solid, please post it.  Until then, I'll go with my heart, which “feels” that God is from forever.

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

What is the alternative to “God did not always exist”?

It would mean he had a “beginning” by evolution or birth or he was created.

The obvious is none of the above. I think anything that existed before the beginning of “time” is eternal.

Moses and John tell us he was there in the beginning of all things. God could not have come to be out of nothing.

If this is not so it would mean that God was not “omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If he “became” those things then where did he get all knowledge, all power, and all love etc?

The scriptures teach us that God is the source of all things and we know that would not include himself!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

Also if Gods “life” is eternal and we know it is because he gives us “eternal life” then that would mean that his “life” never had a beginning since it never has an end!

WJ

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