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Kathi,
Zechariah 6:14 KJV
And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.Zechariah 6:14 NKJV
“Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah.The Hebrew word is “crowns”, which can be taken to mean either more than one crown, or, as the NKJV changed their translation to read, one elaborate crown.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2011,10:26) Mike,
I'm still researching this but you can cross off Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes. Neither of them are kings of kings. They are both singular, i.e. king of kings according to the morphology that is in my new study tool.
Kathi,Why is it that you've had time to already rebut the Nebuchanezzar and Artaxerxes points, but you haven't had time to look into Genesis 39:2 yet?
Is it because you realize that all I need is one to make my point? Well, consider this: The Hebrew defintion of their word for “plural” is “term of grandiosities”.
The plural word “trees” could refer to more than one tree or to one great tree. Same with “rivers”, “mountains”, etc.
Mike,
It was easy with Neb and Arti, I looked them up and 'king' was written in the singular. As far as Gen 39:2, I have gotten distracted from it (you know why) and also, I don't feel qualified to make a judgement. One source says that Moses knew nothing of the majestic plural, also, adonai is not the plural of adown, and adonai and adown are very closely written. I will continue to look into it while I find more compound unity examples.Kathi
Check Psalm 105:30. I believe this speaks of Pharaoh alone, but with a plural “kings”.
Also, what about the other ones I gave you on the last page? Canaan, Most Holy and Song of songs?
Oh, also consider that the SINGULAR gods Dagon and Molech were both called “elohim”.
Is God Almighty One? Two? Or Three?
I think the question should be Is God Almighty One? Two? Three, Four, or Five?
It use to be One or Two, but the Binity evolved into the Trinity. So then it was One or Triune.
But now that there is a Binity supporter, it might be better to cater for possible future Gods that might include four or five.E.g., Father, Son, Spirit, Church
OK, I am half joking in this post, but that means I am half serious too.
t8,
It seems like you have a religion that you can add to the list…one God and one god for instance.Or just how many gods do you have t8 that we should believe in to go along with that one God? One, two, three…?
Can you show me where Jesus calls Himself a god?
I'm not joking, btw.
Mike,
Here is something about Egypt having more than one king:For example, the main classical account of early Egyptian history (before the time of Alexander the Great) is that of an Egyptian priest called Manetho — who lived in the 3rd century B.C.E. He said there had been thirty-one separate dynasties of kings from the earliest times to that of Alexander the Great. When one reads Manetho, the impression is that all the dynasties were successive to one another. But historians have disputed this, saying that some parts or even whole dynasties ruled at the same time with each other, though in different geographical areas of Egypt. The Bible supports this belief. In Isaiah we have an 8th century B.C.E. description of Egypt as being made up of more than one kingdom.
“And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.”
Isaiah 19:2
Jeremiah also said there were kings (plural) over various regions of Egypt.
“The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, says; ‘Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings [plural]; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him.’”
Jeremiah 46:25
And even at the time of the Exodus, Psalm 105:30 says that there were several kings in Egypt.
“Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings [plural].”
Psalm 105:30
I have also seen it translated like this:
Their land teemed with frogs, which went up into the bedrooms of their rulers.So, the word may be plural simply because there is more than one ruler and/or king.
Kathi
Mike,
About 'kings' in the plural…it seems that more men besides than the head king are called kings. Read Isaiah 10:8 and the commentary below it:American Standard Version
For he saith, Are not my princes all of them kings?Bible in Basic English
For he says, Are not all my captains kings?Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8-11. Vauntings of the Assyrians. Illustrated by the self-laudatory inscriptions of Assyria deciphered by Hincks.
princes . kings-Eastern satraps and governors of provinces often had the title and diadem of kings. Hence the title, “King of kings,” implying the greatness of Him who was over them (Eze 26:7; Ezr 7:12).
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2011,14:59) t8,
It seems like you have a religion that you can add to the list…one God and one god for instance.
Let me reword that for you.- One who is the God/Theos. (The Father), and
many who are described as theos. (Scripture and Jesus says so, not me, I merely repeat). - Just like there is one Devil (Satan), and
many who are devils, (demons/evil spirits) - Just as there is one Adam (OK, technically two), and
many who are adam.
I know some of you contest the first and third examples. I don't know why because it is written in scripture for all to see. Even children understand that Adam was the first man and Eve is not Adam. And after a simple truthful explanation, they could easily understand that all mankind is adam. Children can also understand that God is a Father because he has a son. And that God sent his son into the world.
Anyway, why not contest the second point?
Try and demonstrate to me that there are 2 or 3 who are the Devil.Some of you are so far gone in your doctrine that you will even contest that which is almost incontestable. E.g., KJ's attempt to say that Adam adam were…. actually I still don't know what his point really was, except to somehow make Eve actually Adam so that Jesus could be God himself. Something like that. I mean would you buy a used car from a man who tries to get you to believe that?
But as it is written, God will make the wisdom of those who think they are wise to become foolish. And God knows that we have heard just about every vain imagine possible on HN over the years. And for what, to change the truth of God into a lie? Some reward that is.
t8 says:
Quote One who is the God/Theos. (The Father), and
many who are described as theos.It seems that t8 believes that there is a supreme God and many gods, one of the gods being Jesus. We know that Jesus said to believe in Him as well as the Father. Since t8 doesn't believe in God as a compound unity, that would make him out to be a polytheist by definition.
polytheism: The worship of or belief in more than one god.
t8 you do believe in one that is God and one that is god…but do you believe in more than one that is god along with that one that is God? I know that you believe there are many gods but how many of them do you believe in? Do you believe in satan as a god, that would make two gods and one God then, that you believe in if you do.
Maybe 1 Corinthians 8:6 could be worded better for your religion as:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one god, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him, and one god, Satan, by whom the kingdom of darkness is ruled. Maybe you can add some more gods that you believe in, how about the god, t8, since you believe that you, yourself will be a god and you believe in and love yourself…what about all others that believe the way you do…they will all be gods too and you are supposed to love others as you love yourself, so you will be loving all sorts of gods it seems.Before you know it you will be setting up a website to proclaim this religion of yours in and hope for some to follow you and rebel against the organized church.
hmmm…
“But as it is written, God will make the wisdom of those who think they are wise to become foolish. And God knows that we have heard just about every vain imagine possible on HN over the years. And for what, to change the truth of God into a lie? Some reward that is.” t8
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2011,22:59) It seems that t8 believes that there is a supreme God and many gods, one of the gods being Jesus. We know that Jesus said to believe in Him as well as the Father. Since t8 doesn't believe in God as a compound unity, that would make him out to be a polytheist by definition.
Whatever you believe about me LU, you have to believe about Jesus too. I am merely acknowledging the truth that Jesus said, “ye are theos” and was quoting, “ye are elohim, you are all sons of the Most High God”.So feel free to think that Jesus and myself are wrong. But whatever judgement you place on me that is fine because even Jesus said, they will do to you what they did to me. So I honestly do not mind being told I am wrong for acknowledging what Jesus said.
But that said, you certainly have lost the plot. Your words are full of your own understanding and conclusions. They don't make sense. Especially this part:
Quote Since t8 doesn't believe in God as a compound unity, that would make him out to be a polytheist by definition.
Why? Because Jesus said believe in the Father and in himself.
Well let me tell you. I believe in the Father and I believe in Jesus.But your bias thinks that it is saying, “believe in the Father and believe in Jesus AND believe that they are both a compound unity. Funny thing is all translations I read don't have that third part.
Please explain where this comes from? Actually don't worry about it, I am not in the mood right now to hear more false doctrine based on false premises. Maybe tomorrow after a couple of coffees.
Well t8, I don't think I have seen anyone say they were equal to Jesus but that is what you seem to be claiming.
you said:
Quote Whatever you believe about me LU, you have to believe about Jesus too. I am merely acknowledging the truth that Jesus said, “ye are theos” and was quoting, “ye are elohim, you are all sons of the Most High God”. Why do you suppose that the early church father's didn't claim equality with Jesus but rather worshiped Him? Why doesn't Revelations or the letters of the apostles tell us that the follower's of Christ are going to be gods?
This passage tells us that man is quite different than a god and not a god at all. In fact the idea was so wrong that Paul and Barnabas tore their garment. Did Jesus ever tear His garment when men were bowing down to Him? Did He refuse the exaltation from man? How about when He rode on the donkey and the crowd was honoring Him…He received this honor.
9This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, 10said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk. 11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. 16“In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways; 17and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” 18Even saying these things, with difficulty they restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.
Are you equal to Jesus and worthy to be a god when Paul and Barnabas absolutely refused that honor? They totally denied it. You have accepted it. Talk about false doctrine. There is no teaching by the apostles, Jesus, or early church father's that believer's will be gods like Jesus.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,22:25)
saying that some parts or even whole dynasties ruled at the same time with each other, though in different geographical areas of Egypt.
It has always been my impression that the events preceding the exodus happened in one major Egyptian city and the immediately surrounding rural area. Do you think the frogs covered the entire nation of Egypt?Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,22:25)
and their kings [plural]; even Pharaoh,
The words “even Pharaoh” seem to indicate that the plural “kings” here refers ONLY to Pharaoh.Psalm 68:26
Bless God in the congregations, Even the LORD, you who are of the fountain of Israel.There are too many instances to count where writers of scripture added “even this or that” as EMPHASIS, repeating who or what they were already talking about. It seems a very common practice, (Paul does it in Romans 4:17) which makes me think your verse should say, “and their King, even Pharaoh”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 21 2011,22:25)
I have also seen it translated like this:
Their land teemed with frogs, which went up into the bedrooms of their rulers.So, the word may be plural simply because there is more than one ruler and/or king.
And I have seen it rendered as the singular “king”. There is no indication that Moses and Aaron were dealing with multiple kings of Egypt, but only “Pharaoh, King of Egypt”. So the word may also be plural because the writer was referring to Pharaoh as a majestic King.Kathi, here's one for you:
1 Kings 11:33
I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.According to Biblos.com, all three of these SINGULAR gods are called by a PLURAL form of eloah. Can you verify this?
Here's one you won't be able to deny:
Isaiah 19:4
I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them,” declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.The word “master” above is “adonim”. Barnes says: The word rendered 'lord,' meaning master, is in the Hebrew in the plural number (אדנים 'ădônı̂y). It is, however, generally supposed that it is pluralis excellentiae – denoting majesty and dignity, and applicable to a “single” monarch.
Gill says: for the word is in the plural number, “lords”, though the adjective rendered “cruel” is singular;
And Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says: in Hebrew it is lords; but plural is often used to express greatness, where, one alone is meant (Ge 39:2). The parallel word “king” (singular) proves it.
Need we continue? Or have you become convinced that the “plural of majesty” is a real thing in the Hebrew culture?
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2011,11:08) Well t8, I don't think I have seen anyone say they were equal to Jesus but that is what you seem to be claiming.
Well LU.
If you misunderstood me here, then it is entirely possible that you misunderstand others including Jesus and the Psalmist whom he quotes and obviously endorses.I will explain it in simpler terms for you.
If Jesus says something and I repeat it and am criticized for saying or believing it, then the critiscism is really levelled at the person who's words they belong.
Thus, what you say about me regarding that, you say to Christ or the himself because I am not the author of the words, “Ye are theos”, or “Ye are theos, ye are all sons of the Most High God”.See you were wrong here regarding me claiming to be equal to Jesus, so is it possible that you could be wrong with Jesus being YHWH too?
You aptly demonstrated right here and now that I was claiming to be Christ or his equal when I wasn't.Hopefully you are open-minded enough especially after this to at least see that you could also be mistaken as to who Jesus is and claimed to be.
Here is a clue to get you started. The son of someone is not that someone.
So if Jesus was the son of God, then God is his Father and from God's perspective, Jesus is his son, not the same God.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2011,11:08) Why do you suppose that the early church father's didn't claim equality with Jesus but rather worshiped Him? Why doesn't Revelations or the letters of the apostles tell us that the follower's of Christ are going to be gods?
Figure it out for yourself.“Ye are theos, ye are all sons of the Most High God.”
The Psalmist said it, Jesus endorsed it, now it is up to you to accept that it is true, and then figure out what it means.Like I said before, we may have to add Is God Almighty Four? five?
Especially if you add us into the Compound Unity Being (CUB) after accepting Jesus words.
However, I would advise you to go back to one God the Father and figure out the difference between being the One true Theos and just theos. Hint: (Devil, devil), (Adam, adam).
I wish you the best and hope you don't land on more than one who is God.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2011,18:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2011,11:08) Why do you suppose that the early church father's didn't claim equality with Jesus but rather worshiped Him? Why doesn't Revelations or the letters of the apostles tell us that the follower's of Christ are going to be gods?
Figure it out for yourself.“Ye are theos, ye are all sons of the Most High God.”
The Psalmist said it, Jesus endorsed it, now it is up to you to accept that it is true, and then figure out what it means.Like I said before, we may have to add Is God Almighty Four? five?
Especially if you add us into the Compound Unity Being (CUB) after accepting Jesus words.
However, I would advise you to go back to one God the Father and figure out the difference between being the One true Theos and just theos. Hint: (Devil, devil), (Adam, adam).
I wish you the best and hope you don't land on more than one who is God.
T8yeah, those are the words you say, I wanted to say to her long ago ,
any further discussions seams useless to me
Pierre
So t8,
What is different about the theos you think you will be and the theos that Jesus is?Show me scriptures to back up your claims, thx.
t8,
Why the 'B' in 'Compound Unity Being (CUB)?'I am not saying that the Father and the Son make one being. Maybe your confusion here has led to your unwarranted judgements.
I wish you the best also and hope for unity in truth.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2011,12:00) So t8,
What is different about the theos you think you will be and the theos that Jesus is?Show me scriptures to back up your claims, thx.
That is not the point LU and going down this road doesn't sort out the issue.The point is that if it was said of Jesus (ye are theos), you would be all over that verse as proof for your doctrine. But because it is written about men or certain men, then it is conveniently ignored by yourself and Trinitarians too.
But for me, I just accept the usages of theos and elohim in scripture as being non-exclusive just as adam is non exclusive, even though we know full well there was one Adam, (first man) and one God. NOTE: this is not and never has been a contradiction.
Some here need to grasp or at least accept the way scripture uses or handles these words. Until then, a dreamed up theory will not suffice to explain anything because the things of God come from the spirit of God and scripture and prophecy is God-breathed.
I myself do not see any conflict with there being one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Especially when you consider that it was God that made Jesus, Lord.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2011,12:06) I wish you the best also and hope for unity in truth.
Thanks- One who is the God/Theos. (The Father), and
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