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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,10:22) He did not say he was returning to a “greater Glory” did he Mike?
Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.“He BECAME”, Keith. What do those words tell us? Do those words say “he ALWAYS WAS”? Or does the word BECAME indicate that this added superiority is a NEW thing?
This scripture doesn't say that Jesus has now become superior to the angels, as if he wasn't already. I'm sure we can both agree to that, right? But it does imply that he became MORE superior to them than he was already. And God Almighty could never become MORE superior to the angels, for He is already as much superior to them as He'll ever be.
And just how much MORE superior to the angels has Jesus been exalted? As much as the NEW NAME he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Did Jesus ALWAYS have what he calls “my NEW name” in Rev 3:12? If he did, it would not then be a NEW name, would it Keith?
So, Jesus has been given a new name that is superior to the old name he had, and he has become even more superior to the angels than what he had previously been.
Neither of these things can be said of God Almighty.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,10:25) When will you see Mike that “right hand” is a metaphor of Jesus having all authority and power and ruling the creation?
He has exactly the amount of power, authority, and rule that his God GAVE him, Keith. Can you DENY THIS?And when will YOU see that Bill's right hand man is NOT Bill himself?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,10:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,19:31) Keith, did you have any more direct quotes from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel where Jesus himself claimed to have been God or equal to Him? Because that is what this thread is for.
Already answered and your point is debunked because…Jesus claim that all things including all judgment are in his hands is a claim to equality with God!” (John 3:35) That is why they wanted to crucify him Mike, because he claimed to be equal to God by calling God his Father.
I'll take that as a “NO” then. Thanks for your participation in this thread Keith. You have proved a very good point, and I am happy. You have showed us all just exactly how WEAK your trinity proofs are as a general rule. For an intelligent man to insist that a scripture where God GIVES something to someone else is proof that the “someone else” IS God Himself shows the extent to which you are lead, not by scripture or logic, but by necessity to prove something that is not taught in the scriptures – no matter how idiotic it makes you out to be.
Thanks for your help in this matter.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2011,14:29) “He BECAME”, Keith.
When did he become Mike? Are you once again leaving out John 17:5 and the fact that Jesus left all to come in the flesh and for a time “Became” a servant Messiah and then returned to the Glory he shared with the Father?WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,10:22) He did not say he was returning to a “greater Glory” did he Mike? WJ
Keith! Not only what you have been saying, but also that the Holy Spirit is not a person… It is the Spirit of our Heavenly Father….And they are not a trinity…. that is a man made doctrine…. can I proof it, yes….
Peace IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2011,14:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,10:22) He did not say he was returning to a “greater Glory” did he Mike? WJ
WJJn 3:27 To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.
Jn 4:21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Jn 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
Jn 4:25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
Jn 4:26 Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”see last comment of Jesus said to the women he is the Messiah; Jesus did not say he is God ,
Jn 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
strange you guys believers in the trinity or binitry you like to make Christ equal to his father when he declares himself depending on his father,and pay attention it is God that lead the son not the other way around,
only worship the father but honor the son
Pierre
Pierre,
The two are equal in deity nature and one is subject to the other…so? Compound unities often have one that the others are subject to. The family unity has the father that is the head of the family…they still are a compound unity. Jehovah God can be one compound unity and have more than one deity member where one member is the head of the other. One being the head of the other doesn't take away anything from them being equal in nature or from their being members of the unity called Jehovah. Simply, within the unity of Jehovah, there is one member that is the head of the other as Father to His Son. Not as big God to little God.Kathi
kathi
Quote The two are equal in deity nature and one is subject to the other…so? but scriptures clearly says that Christ as been created ,the first of all creation and that is why he is the only son of God ,all other creation came trough Christ the son
so your idea of making Christ a god will not stand in truth ,
I mean a compounded unit whatever that means in your mind
Pierre
Pierre,
Great scriptures from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel! These further the exercise of this thread by answering the question in 8:25.
So far, Jesus has said he is the SON OF God, the one that God anointed, the one that God SENT, the one that God GAVE, and one to whom God has GIVEN things. He points out in your last verse that he can do NOTHING by himself.
All these things lead up to this:
25 “Who are you?” they asked.“Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied.
Keith, Jesus asked to be returned to the SAME glory in John 17:5, but God exalted him to an even HIGHER position and glory. Can you deny this?
Kathi, you have become like a broken record. You just keep spouting the same unscriptural crap over and over, as if you think repetition will somehow convince us that the lies you're posting are the truth. It won't work, so save your breath unless you have something SCRIPTURALLY SUPPORTED to add to the discussion.
peace to all of you,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,13:13) Tell us Mike… Are demons and satan who are spirit beings, “sons of God”?
Absolutely Keith.
Anathema! Once again Mike you are exercising your “plastic straw” method of exegesis.You are lying against Jesus own words when he rebuked and corrected unbelieving Jews for claiming God as their Father….
Jesus said unto them, ”IF GOD WERE YOUR FATHER, ye would love me”: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. ”YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and the lusts of YOUR FATHER ye will do”. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:42-44
So who was the unbelieving Jews Father Mike?
Where is the scripture that states “satan and demons” father is God?
Where is the scripture where angels, demons or satan call God their Father?
When are you going to answer some quesitons Mike?
The same is still true today, “Why do YE NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? even because YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55) Just as the Israelites didn't stop being sons of God when they turned against Him.
No Israelite ever called YHWH “their personal Father”. To call God their own personal Father was blasphemous and in fact they crucified him for claiming he was the “Son of God”. Israel as a nation was called YHWHS firstborn son, which should tell you that “firstborn” does not always mean literally born as in child birth. When you understand this then you will see that Jesus is not literally born of the creation as you falsely teach by claiming he is of the creation or a creature.These are elementary things Mike and you should have learned these things by now. But then again if one has an agenda to prove or a false doctrine to hold onto or maybe they are just plain stubborn then that person would never know the truth though it is staring them in the face.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55)
If your own son messes up, does he cease to be your son?
No, but my son is my literal son by procreation. Try again!WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55)
Keith, were you going to answer these questions – which ARE on the topic?
Why should I answer your questions when you don’t answer mine? But just for the sake of those listening I will answer your questions though you do not answer mine because I do not have anything to hide like you apparently do.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55) What OTHER “sons of God” would have been present when God laid the foundations of the earth? And why do you think the LXX has translated “sons of God” as “angels” in Job 38:7?
First off the LXX was originally the Hebrew translated into Greek and then what you read is where men translated it into English. But the “angels” being called “sons of God” is an idiom and a poetic way of describing “angelic beings” that are supernatural.Some translate it “angels” and not “sons of God”.
as the morning stars sang together and all the angels* shouted for joy? Job 38:7 NLT
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels** shouted for joy? Job 38:7 NIV
Who are the “morning stars” Mike?
The NET states….
The “sons of God” in the OT is generally taken to refer to angels. “They are not actually “sons” of Elohim; the idiom is a poetic way of describing their nature and relationship to God. The phrase indicates their supernatural nature, and their submission to God as the sovereign Lord. It may be classified as a genitive that expresses how individuals belong to a certain class or type, i.e., the supernatural (GKC 418 §128.v). In the pagan literature, especially of Ugarit, “the sons of God” refers to the lesser gods or deities of the pantheon. See H. W. Robinson, “The Council of Yahweh,” JTS 45 (1943): 151-57; G. Cooke, “The Sons of (the) God(s),” ZAW 76 (1964): 22-47; M. Tsevat, “God and the Gods in the Assembly,” HUCA 40-41 (1969/70): 123-37. NET
So is that all you have to hang your hat on to prove Jesus is an angelic being?
Well if that it so then your theology contradicts scriptures once again for the scriptures clearly say…
But to ”which of the angels said he at any time”, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Heb 1:5
And…
“It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come”, about which we are speaking. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or ”the son of man”, that thou visitest him? Heb 2:5, 6
Mike, according to the above scriptures, will the world to come be subjected to the “angels”?
If Jesus the Son of man is an “angelic being” then who is “man and the son of man” that the world to come will be subject to?
Are you going to run from these questions also and falsely claim that I am creating a diversion?
WJ
BTW Mike
When the “demons” cried out saying, “What have we to do with thee, “Jesus, thou Son of God?” art thou come hither to torment us before the time”?”, did they see Jesus as a “son of God” like the demons as you say?
If so what was so special about Jesus being the “Son of God”?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,13:04) Great post Keith! You are on a roll today
Blessings,
Kathi
Thanks Kathi!WJ
kieth,
And the demons never specified that Jesus was begotten, so there for Son Of God must mean somethin moreKeith!
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which were of old, men of renown.Who are these? The Holy Spirit of God ws not given to man yet, so it could not have been any men…
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Is Satan a Spirit Being? Are all these sons of God Spirit Beings, because God cannot look on flesh….
Job 2:1 ¶ Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Same here
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who are these?
Now lets see what the Sons of man are? Humans
Psa 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights [were] with the sons of men.
Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all [things] that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 2:3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what [was] that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.
Ecc 2:8 I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, [as] musical instruments, and that of all sorts.
There are a few more Scriptures in the Old Testament for the Sons of Men…. but you get the picture….
Now to the Sons of God in the New Testament the Sasints
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
There is a distinct difference between the Sons of God, the Sons of men, and the Sons of God who are in the New Testament and are the Sauints who will rule with Christ during the Millennium….
I believe that the Sons of God in the Old Testament are the Angels… No doubt in my mind…
I was just reading in Luke and I found a Scripture were Gabriel was mentioned…. her it is
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
This proves that the Angels stand in the presence of God…..
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,12:04) Great post Keith! You are on a roll today
Blessings,
Kathi
Really Kathi?After you just agreed that angels ARE the sons of God?
Keith, I'll try to get to your very weak post tomorrow. I have been simply SWAMPED with post reports today, and have had very little time to do what I joined HN to do.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2011,09:55) What OTHER “sons of God” would have been present when God laid the foundations of the earth? And why do you think the LXX has translated “sons of God” as “angels” in Job 38:7?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
But the “angels” being called “sons of God” is an idiom and a poetic way of describing “angelic beings” that are supernatural.
Says who? And how in the world does that change the fact that ANGELS are called the sons of God?Your original stand, from years ago, is that no angel is a son of God. You and Jack have gone as far as rewriting Genesis just to make sure no angel is ever called a son of God.
But NOW you ADMIT that angels WERE called the sons of God. Great! Because that's all I was after. Your personal belief that they were only called that “poetically” is exactly that – a PERSONAL belief – with not one scripture to support it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
Who are the “morning stars” Mike?
Well, according to most commentators, and myself, they are angels. And guess who else is a morning star, Keith? (Revelation 22:16)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
The NET states….The “sons of God” in the OT is generally taken to refer to angels. “They are not actually “sons” of Elohim; the idiom is a poetic way of describing their nature and relationship to God. The phrase indicates their supernatural nature, and their submission to God as the sovereign Lord.
And where is the scriptural support for their theory, Keith?From Barnes:
When the morning-stars – There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here…………..And all the sons of God – Angels – called the sons of God from their resemblance to him, or their being created by him.
Hmmmm………………..just like WE are sons of God because we were created by Him and share His image? And WE call Him “Father”, don't we?
From Clarke:
When the morning stars sang together – This must refer to some intelligent beings who existed before the creation of the visible heavens and earth: and it is supposed that this and the following clause refer to the same beings; that by the sons of God, and the morning stars, the angelic host is meant;From Gill:
When the morning stars sang together,…. Either all the stars in a literal sense; for though, strictly speaking, there is but one morning star, yet all may be called so…………… Or figuratively, either angels, as most interpret them,……………who are stars in Christ's right hand, Revelation 1:20; but the principal morning star is Christ himself, Revelation 22:16;and all the sons of God shouted for joy; which are usually understood of angels also, so the Targum; who are the sons of God, not by birth, as Christ, nor by adoption, as saints; but by creation, as Adam, Luke 3:38. And because they bear some likeness to God, as holy spirits, and honour and obey him in doing his will;
From Wesley:
38:7 Stars – The angels, who may well be called morning – stars, because of their excellent lustre and glory. Sons of God – The angels called the sons of God, because they had their whole being from him, and because they were made partakers of his Divine and glorious image.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
So is that all you have to hang your hat on to prove Jesus is an angelic being?
This wasn't about me proving Jesus is an angel, Keith. I already proved that in the other thread, for any spirit messenger of God is an angel of God. And Rev 1 shows clearly that Jesus is a spirit messenger of his God.This was about you and Jack putting your head in the sand about angels being called sons of God. You now seem to have come to your senses in this matter.
But, since you mentioned it, you have caused me to discover even more things to “hang my hat on”. Because it seems to be the general consensus that the morning stars WERE the angels, and we know that Jesus is the bright morning star, don't we? Thanks for this discussion, Keith. I imagine that Jesus was one of the morning stars who sang as his God laid the foundations of the earth.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
Well if that it so then your theology contradicts scriptures once again for the scriptures clearly say…But to ”which of the angels said he at any time”, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Heb 1:5
Well Keith? What's the answer? Which of the angels DID God tell to sit at his right hand? It was Jesus, wasn't it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2011,11:01)
Are you going to run from these questions also andfalselyclaim that I am creating a diversion?
As a matter of fact, YES. This thread is SUPPOSED TO BE about the direct quotes of Jesus where he himself clearly stated that he was God Almighty. Then somewhere during the course of the discussion, you were claiming that angels weren't the sons of God.I have now set you straight on both of those matters, and do not wish to discuss the “Jesus is an angel” topic on this thread. D-Linquent started a thread called “Is Jesus God the angel?” or something like that, where we've discussed it at great length.
If you want to, post your qu
estions in that thread.It's now time to get this thread back on topic. So guys, Keith has so far listed a scripture where Jesus said his God GAVE him things as “proof” that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself.
Is that it? Is that the ONLY direct quote of Jesus from the first 8 chapters of John where Jesus supposedly claimed to be God……………….by stating that God GAVE him things?
peace,
mikeHey Keith,
Your long post that starts out asking if demons are sons of God……………….what thread did that come from?
And the next long post to which I've just responded……………….what thread did THAT one come from?
After my last post, I went back to see just how we did end up on “angels” and “sons of God” in this thread. And it seems that you are importing things from other threads over to here. Why?
FROM NOW ON, THIS THREAD IS FOR DIRECTLY QUOTED WORDS OF JESUS FROM THE FIRST 8 CHAPTERS OF JOHN WHERE JESUS HIMSELF SUPPOSEDLY CLAIMS TO BE GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. OR QUOTES FROM THE SAME CHAPTERS WHERE JESUS CLEARLY LISTS HIMSELF AS SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD.
Thank you for staying on topic,
mike44 (Now Jesus himself had pointed out that a prophet has no honor in his own country.)
Okay, so far Jesus has taught these things about himself:
He is the Son of God – not the God he is the Son of.
He was given by God – not the God he was given by.
He was sent by God – not the God who sent him.
God placed all things in his hand – so he is not the God who placed those things in his hand.
He can do nothing by himself – does that sound like he is God?
And now we learn from his own mouth he is a prophet of God – not the God of whom he is a prophet.mike
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